People on Sun java forums are rude!

[Deepak Prasad]

Hello I have just joined this site but already I can see it is really friendly and a good place to ask questions. Not like Sun forum! I ask some question on there and get many rude and arrogant reply for no reason! Then moderator delete my question! All people on Sun forum with over 1000 post think they can give abusive language to anyone who ask question. If anyone here ever ask question on Sun forum then do not expect help from yogee, warnerja or jverd! I already see that this forum is much more friendly and hope to enjoy learning java from here.

[Chetan Parekh]

Deepak Welcome to the JavaRanch

Because of the rich knowledge based and strict administration in place, JR is the best Java Community Site.

All the best!!
[ April 10, 2006: Message edited by: Chetan Parekh ]

[MInu]

One more rancher........

[Mark Spritzler]

Welcome Deepak. Yes we definitely work hard to keep the be nice policy. If someone isn't nice, just let us know. Sometimes, it happens, but we try not to.

Mark

[Daniel Gee]

I had similar experience, Deepak.

It was close to the Christmas 2005. I posted a question on both the JavaRanch and the java.sun.com (sorry for cross-web site postings).

A double-faced person anwsered my question on the JavaRanch forum in a nice way; but attacked me on the Sun forum. He said that people were disgusted by cross-sites postings and wanted all Sun forum participants to ban me from posting on the Sun forum. He even said that I seldom came back to re-visit the threads after my original postings, which was absolutely false.

Here at the JavaRanch, people are simply "advised" not to post on more than one forums.

I do not know why that person had so much hatred in his heart especially it was the time approaching Christmas. Two thousand years ago, there was no room in that "inn" for the birth of Jesus Christ. And there was no room in his heart for the annual celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.

[Paul Clapham]

Originally posted by Daniel Gee:
Here at the JavaRanch, people are simply "advised" not to post on more than one forums.

I don't think this is quite accurate. The moderators here will almost always enforce the policy against cross-posting by locking all but one of the duplicate posts. You may refer to this as "advising" if you like, but the end result is that the individual stops cross-posting without argument.

Whereas on unmoderated forums, when somebody is advised (politely or otherwise) to avoid cross-posting, inevitably the response comes back that they were just trying to get the maximum coverage for their question. And after that a debate (polite or otherwise) will ensue about why that is a selfish thing to do.

So what you are seeing is the difference between moderated and unmoderated forums.

[Mark Spritzler]

"So what you are seeing is the difference between moderated and unmoderated forums."

Yes, but there are also sometimes moderated forums which aren't nice either.

Mark

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Paul Clapham:
I don't think this is quite accurate. The moderators here will almost always enforce the policy against cross-posting by locking all but one of the duplicate posts.

This is slightly misleading. While we do enforce cross posting bans intra site, we're not really concerned about cross posting extra-site. To wit, we don't really care if you cross post to another resource, so long as that resource is not part of JavaRanch.

Heck, if it was a really tough question, we'd love for you to come back and tell us what the answer was

M

[Paul Clapham]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:
This is slightly misleading. While we do enforce cross posting bans intra site, we're not really concerned about cross posting extra-site. To wit, we don't really care if you cross post to another resource, so long as that resource is not part of JavaRanch.

Yes, of course I only meant posts within JavaRanch. It would be far too much to expect the moderators to review other forums. However my view (and that of many others) is that extra-site cross-posting is still cross-posting and people should not be shocked if that view is pointed out to them on unmoderated forums.

[Daniel Gee]

I was not "shocked".

The essence is that the person "did not" simply "pointing out his view". Please take another look at the subject line of this thread.

[Dave Lenton]

Originally posted by Paul Clapham:
So what you are seeing is the difference between moderated and unmoderated forums.

Its a bit like the difference between a town with police and a town in a state of anarchy. In the first town people are polite and stick to the rules because they know there is the police there to keep an eye on things. In the second town there is nobody to enforce the rules, so the locals have to form vigilante groups to try and keep the peace.

The trouble is that vigilantes don't have legal powers, so they often resort to physical aggression. On an unmoderated forum, the posters who are trying to keep the peace don't have the ability to moderate, so they resort to verbal abuse. Their aim is often a good one - to have a technical forum with a good working atmosphere, but their frustration at being able to do nothing about those posters who they disagree with causes them to get rather abusive.

The sun forums now seem to be divided into three groups - the students who want people to do their homework, the few trouble makers who love to wind people up, and the long term posters who are frustrated with the previous two groups. The more frustrated the long termers get, the more they leap on any small transgression of their rules.

I often agree with their ideas on how a forum should be, but some of them do seem to be a little over eager to abuse someone who perhaps doesn't have any experience on good forum etiquette. Javaranch seems so much calmer in comparison. I'm surprised that more of those long term posters from the sun forums haven't migrated over here, where the rules pretty much match their ideas. Perhaps they like a perceived freedom of an unmoderated forum, despite the chaos.

[Maximilian Xavier Stocker]

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
I often agree with their ideas on how a forum should be, but some of them do seem to be a little over eager to abuse someone who perhaps doesn't have any experience on good forum etiquette. Javaranch seems so much calmer in comparison. I'm surprised that more of those long term posters from the sun forums haven't migrated over here, where the rules pretty much match their ideas. Perhaps they like a perceived freedom of an unmoderated forum, despite the chaos.

There are in fact a number of recentish JavaRanch members (including myself and the highly esteemed, at least by me Paul Clapham) who are in fact long time members of the Sun forums. And when I say that I mean there are about 5 people I could pick out who joined up in the last year or whatnot here who have a combined post count on the Sun forums of well over 30,000 posts (and probably over 40,000 when I think about it).

Anyway I thought I would take a moment to answer your question about why more don't come over and why those who do tend to stay more active on the Sun forums than here.

These factors include

- As you allude to there is a certain freedom of expression allowed there that is not here. Personally my concern is more of who polices the police. I have debated (mostly to myself) the merits of an unmoderated vs moderated community and I am really unsure of where I stand on the issue. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

- These forums do not have near the traffic the Sun ones do. That means there are more likely to be unanswered questions on those forums than these ones. I do wonder as well what would happen here if the volume of traffic got to be like that of the Sun forums. I kind of think more multi-posts and crossposts would slip under the radar as moderators got overwhelmed

- These forums have a different cultural makeup. The ratio of Asian to Western (North American and European) members is markedly different than it is on the Sun forum. This is not intended to incite some debate on racism it's just a fact and one that applies when one wants to understand why someone is more comfortable in one place than another. Simply shared experience. For example 19 out of 20 Sun forum "regulars" would probably tell you that a SCJP certificate isn't worth the paper it's printed on. And for their experience and setting they would be right. But obviously in other countries this is not the case. However if you are in a country where it doesn't matter than a whole set of forums dedicated to these questions seems like major overkill and kind of boring.

- Less inept cheaters here. The Sun forums are flooded at certain times of the year (and every Sunday) with students looking to cheat on their homework. The lies and abuse from these people just gets old after 7 years. I don't know what else to say. They don't post here too much and good for that. I mention this point because I think that while certainly a goodly portion of the atmosphere here is due to moderation this forum is just not under the same social stresses as the Sun ones. Again if the volume of traffic and quality of poster were equivalent I would be interested (as a social experiment) to see what would happen here. I don't think it would be good. Moderators would be overwhelmed and grow increasingly frustrated for starters. Overall the atmosphere would decline.

And just to get back to the original topic, I have had some *interesting* experiences helping people across both forums. Specifically I have had the following experience more than once.

Starting on the Sun forums.

Original Poster : "hlp me wth dbt abt X it is giving err pls"

Me : "Your keyboard seems to be missing letters. Do take the time to write out words like please and you in full. Sun isn't charging you by the letter you know. As far as your problem goes please post some formatted code that demonstrates the problem you are having"

Original Poster: "i hv dbt"

Me: "Yes we got that part thanks. Care to share some formatted code that expands on this"

Original Poster: Posts long stack trace all in bold

Original Poster: "pls hlp"

Me: "Please USE REAL WORDS! And where is your formatted code that demonstrates your problem all we can see is that you are having a NullPointerException"

Original Poster: Posts reams of unformatted code that use i to access an array causing italics half-way through

Me: "No. Try again. Post formatted code please."

Original Poster: Posts formatted code.

Me: "Okay the problem is with library X that you got from somewhere else. You should consult the documentation for library X that tells you how to solve this problem"

Original Poster: " I do not know where libaray X came from"

Me: " Well use google and find it"

Original Poster: "I tried but cannot"

Me: after using google for 15 seconds "Well here I found it. You know library X is not suitable for what you are trying to do at all. You are trying to (real example given here) use a C driver as a JDBC driver. That won't work"

Original poster gives up and moves to JavaRanch.

Original Poster : "hlp me wth dbt abt X it is giving err pls"

Me (although the poster does not know this): "You are trying to use a C driver as a JDBC driver. Why don't you use a JDBC driver instead like (link provided)

Original Poster: "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You are the best man ever and not like the rude people on the Sun forums who are not helping anyone but just being rude"

I do not have the heart to point out what has really happened with these people. Suffice to say that without all the steps I went painfully through on the Sun forums the answer would not have been forthcoming. And like I have said I have seen this a few times with me directly and a whole raft of cases where it happens that I have gone through the Sun forum part and then the poster comes here, asks a now coherent question and then gets a response from someone else.

So I think it's a bit much to say that all the Sun forum people are rude. More often than not if you didn't like the answers you got it's because you didn't ask a very good question and by the time you came here you already had been instructed in one form or another on the importance of asking good questions that can get good responses.

Very sorry for the length of this post but this is matter of both interest and passion for me.
[ April 12, 2006: Message edited by: Maximilian Xavier Stocker ]

[Dave Lenton]

Originally posted by Maximilian Xavier Stocker:
There are in fact a number of recentish JavaRanch members (including myself and the highly esteemed, at least by me Paul Clapham) who are in fact long time members of the Sun forums. And when I say that I mean there are about 5 people I could pick out who joined up in the last year or whatnot here who have a combined post count on the Sun forums of well over 30,000 posts (and probably over 40,000 when I think about it).

I'd noticed one or two people making the move here (I'm an occasional lurker on the sun forums). This is a good thing - the people you're describing will certainly increase the level of expertise on this site.

- As you allude to there is a certain freedom of expression allowed there that is not here. Personally my concern is more of who polices the police. I have debated (mostly to myself) the merits of an unmoderated vs moderated community and I am really unsure of where I stand on the issue. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

One thing which annoys me about the Sun forums is their lack of consistency about moderating. I used to post there quite a lot back in the days of the Water Cooler, when the site was fun. Since that got closed down, Sun seem to stamp down on anything approaching a conversation with a community feel, but at the same time ignore the vast swathes of nonsense posts and posters. It seems the worst of both worlds - unmoderated where it needs to be, while at the same time much of the community feel gets moderated out.

The Sun forums seem to have great potential for a community feel similar to this site, and I think they had them back when there was a place their to have non-technical conversations, but since then it has changed.

I do wonder as well what would happen here if the volume of traffic got to be like that of the Sun forums.

This does seem to be a bit of a disadvantage that the Sun forums have - they're the obvious first port of call for all those people who don't know how to use a search engine!

However if you are in a country where it doesn't matter than a whole set of forums dedicated to these questions seems like major overkill and kind of boring.

I also don't find the issue of certification hugely important, but perhaps that makes having a separate area for it a good idea - it helps to filter out the posts concerning certification, and direct them away from the rest of the areas of the site. This'll make it less likely (in theory...) that you'll come across a post you find boring.

Again if the volume of traffic and quality of poster were equivalent I would be interested (as a social experiment) to see what would happen here. I don't think it would be good. Moderators would be overwhelmed and grow increasingly frustrated for starters. Overall the atmosphere would decline.

I'm often impressed by the amount of time the moderators put into this site already. Its hard to see how they could be expected to spend even more time moderating, so yeah, it would probably get worse here if the idiots migrated over here. There's one or two from the Sun forum in particular (I'm sure you'll probably be thinking of the same people) who would probably prove particularly annoying to moderators.

So I think it's a bit much to say that all the Sun forum people are rude. More often than not if you didn't like the answers you got it's because you didn't ask a very good question and by the time you came here you already had been instructed in one form or another on the importance of asking good questions that can get good responses.

I tend to agree. For the most part the people who answer questions on the Sun forums are quite patient, but occasionally a few of them seem to snap. In a way that's understandable...
[ April 12, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]

[Jeff Albertson]

Count me as another long-time (since 2000) forum.java.sun.com member (although not under this nom de guerre). For a while I was posting to both there and here, but I eventually got tired of:

1. Sun's mishandling of their forums -- it seems every time they changed the forums, they got worse. At one point, many of the senior forum members went so far as to go out on strike!
2. Besides too many "do my homework" posts, there were also too many trolls and pointless flame wars.
3. I rarely post questions myself so I actually prefer the lower volume of postings at JavaRanch.

Maximilian Xavier Stocker refers to "The ratio of Asian to Western (North American and European) members is markedly different than it is on the Sun forum." In this post he takes pains to not make this a wind-up but what should one make of the difference? The SCJP and other certification forums are segregated from the rest, so one can ignore them if one wished. Beyond the obsession with certifications what accounts for the "different cultural makeup", and what real different does it make?

For me the bottom line is that these forums are a friendlier place to talk about Java or about just plain drivel.

[Maximilian Xavier Stocker]

Originally posted by Jeff Albertson:
Count me as another long-time (since 2000) forum.java.sun.com member (although not under this nom de guerre).

We all miss you BigDaddy. Particularly when there are discussions of culinary realted items.

At one point, many of the senior forum members went so far as to go out on strike!

This worked... for about two weeks.

In the past few days I discovered that in one forum Sun misconfigured the software (what a shock) and one could post HTML and JavaScript tags and code. Oh the hilarity. I took the opportunity to post screenshots that showed some of the worst outstanding bugs. Since last night two of them mysteriously got fixed.

It seems there are one or two people at Sun who care AND know what they are doing but there is a front line support of rather inept people.

A real doozy happened about 4 months ago. About 7 months someone discovered a serious leak in the privacy configuration for the forum software. It was possible to see pages that contained users emails (even when this email was marked as private). I found out through the grapevine about this after about 3 months and I was horrified. I was more horrified when I discovered that numerous people had reported this as feedback and nothing had been done. I reported feedback and waited a week.

Then I posted the private emails of Sun employees on the site in full view to everyone.

The problem was fixed in 2 hours.

If there is one thing I resent it's that attitude.

Back to

Beyond the obsession with certifications what accounts for the "different cultural makeup", and what real different does it make?

Well without being too esoteric (if that's possible at this point I don't know) I think it represents a more core difference. It seems to me that for the Western programmers programming is less a means to an end than an end. It seems to me that a majority of Western programmers do it because they like (love) it. If I won a 10 million lottery tomorrow I would be writing code on Friday all the same.

I get the sense that for the majority of at least the Indian programmers this is not the case. Programming is seen as a means to achieve a good financial living. Not that there's anything wrong with that but I do think that there is a certain passion for what one does that if one has it one likes to be around people who share this passion.

None of these are hard, fast and true sterotypes but I do think from what I can see that if the ratio in one area is 80:20 it's 20:80 in the other. But it's a different viewpoint that explains why for some people cramming for an SCJP exam is a practical way to achieve one's goals while for others such practices are abhorrent.

[Max Habibi]

Boy, I'm a little uncomfortable with this thread on a lot of levels.

First, I dislike generalization based on race/ethnicity. I would venture that people's motivations for coding are as different as people themselves. I really hope that one of our excellent Asian contributors doesn't take offense, and that the ensuing conversation doesn't cause this thread to become ugly. So, a general warning: If you feel the need to air a counter opinion, please do just that. But let's not get personal, or mean, or any of that.

Second, I don't like the idea that we're unable to appreciate the excellent contributions of the people who post on the Sun forums. Ax Maximilian has pointed out(and demonstrated through his own helpful posts), everyone who helps other people is a volunteer: they are, in fact, helping other people for free. I would wish that we don't draw lines and moats around ourselves and insult like-minded people on other forums.

The fact of the matter is, we have a lot more in common then we do not.
[ April 12, 2006: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Maximilian Xavier Stocker]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:
Boy, I'm a little uncomfortable with this thread on a lot of levels.

First, I dislike generalization based on race/ethnicity. I would venture that people's motivations for coding are as different as people themselves. I really hope that one of our excellent Asian contributors doesn't take offense, and that the ensuing conversation doesn't cause this thread to become ugly. So, a general warning: If you feel the need to air a counter opinion, please do just that. But let's not get personal, or mean, or any of that.

There is no need for anyone to feel uncomfortable. There is absolultley nothing wrong with noting differences in culture. Nothing. There is a problem if you pass some sort of moral or other judgement on a group because of this.

If you don't want to talk about the SCJP then fine but look at the cricket threads here. In the days of the water cooler on the Sun forum there were sports related threads and these had to do with baseball, hockey and soccer/football. I can't recall a single cricket thread.

Is is it a generalization to say that more people from Asian countries care more about cricket then their Western counterparts? Yes it is. Is it true? Yes it is. Is there something wrong with making this statement?

Yes people are people wherever you go and using preconcieved notions about someone from a certain culture background to judge an individual is always wrong. But it's a mite foolish to pretend that there are not differences between different cultures. Personally I think such differences should be celebrated. Getting exposure to the ideals, hopes etc of a culutural community that is different from your own I think is an excellent experience for all involved. When you learn more about what others might think you question more about what you think and why you think it and it provides an excellent opportunity for self-growth.

At any rate the original question I was answering on this was why don't more of the long time Sun regulars come here. Culture shock is one of those differences. It's not a question of right or wrong and I never suggested it was. There is a difference though and that is one of the reasons.

Anyway nobody needs to feel uncomfortable. No group is being attacked or put down or generalized in any negative way. Certainly any group is made up of individuals who act in a unique and in many ways divergent ways. But are there some general differences when it comes to shared cultural experiences. Absolutley there are.

[Max Habibi]

There is no need for anyone to feel uncomfortable.


Well, we can belay the discussion on your opinion of the need to feel uncomfortable. However, as a moderator here, I am stating that I do, in fact, feel uncomfortable with the general turn of this discussion.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with noting differences in culture. Nothing. There is a problem if you pass some sort of moral or other judgement on a group because of this.

Logically nuanced arguments are always somewhat difficult to carry out over the wire, but I will try.

The problem is not noting an existing fact: the problem is opinioning about characteristics which are is dispute. Also, it's a logical fallacy to suggest that just because some cultural distinctions exist, then all opinions about cultural distinctions are equally valid. Or, put another way.


P->Q does not mean that S->Q.


If you don't want to talk about the SCJP


Why would I not want to talk about the SCJP?


then fine but look at the cricket threads here. In the days of the water cooler on the Sun forum there were sports related threads and these had to do with baseball, hockey and soccer/football. I can't recall a single cricket thread.


While I'll happily concede that this is true, I'm somewhat at a loss for it's significance as an argument? Are you suggesting that just because The Asian posters on this forum have a preference for Cricket over Baseball, thus it follows that they have are less inclined to love software engineering? Or that your opinion on that matter is as equally valid as the general preference of cricket over baseball? I fail to see the logic here. It seems that the basic of your arguments is that

1. Cultural differences exist{which I agree is true}
2. The Cultural difference you opinioned about-that Asian programmers don't love software engineering as much as western programmers- exists{which is not proven, nor will we have that debate here}.



Is is it a generalization to say that more people from Asian countries care more about cricket then their Western counterparts? Yes it is. Is it true? Yes it is. Is there something wrong with making this statement?


Again, no, per point # 1 above.

Yes people are people wherever you go and using preconceived notions about someone from a certain culture background to judge an individual is always wrong. But it's a mite foolish to pretend that there are not differences between different cultures. Personally I think such differences should be celebrated. Getting exposure to the ideals, hopes etc of a cultural community that is different from your own I think is an excellent experience for all involved. When you learn more about what others might think you question more about what you think and why you think it and it provides an excellent opportunity for self-growth.

This is an excellent observation: and one I agree with. However, it's not part of your earlier argument.


At any rate the original question I was answering on this was why don't more of the long time Sun regulars come here. Culture shock is one of those differences. It's not a question of right or wrong and I never suggested it was. There is a difference though and that is one of the reasons.


That's fine. However, I'll venture to say that it's because the moderators here try to make sure that everyone is treated fairly. And, when possible, kindly.

Anyway nobody needs to feel uncomfortable.


As I indicated earlier, the need to feel uncomfortable is a somewhat metaphysical one. Is there ever a need to feel uncomfortable? For example, even under torture and insult, does a prisoner absolutely need to feel uncomfortable?

No group is being attacked or put down or generalized in any negative way.

I agree: and I'd like to make it crystal clear that any such would not be tolerated here.

Certainly any group is made up of individuals who act in a unique and in many ways divergent ways. But are there some general differences when it comes to shared cultural experiences. Absolutely there are.


That's very true: and some assertions about which behaviors are validly a part of that category, and which behaviors are not, tend to lead to inflamed tensions and hurt feelings. Accordingly, in polite company, we avoid those discussions. There are many places on the web where such discussion are had.

Javaranch is not one such place.

M

[Grant Gainey]

An interesting, if sad, thread. I joined the Sun forums in 1997, but haven't posted for over a year and only drop in now and then to see if anything's changed. It has not, alas.

Somewhere I have a link to an article on "Social Software", into which category both the Ranch and the Sun Forums fall. It classified such things into "Strictly Moderated", "Inconsistently Moderated," and "Unmoderated", and pointed out that "Inconsistently Moderated" was the worst possible case for building community. As has been pointed out, the Sun fora these days are poster children for the downfall of inconsistent moderation.

I don't post a lot here yet, either. I miss the old community, and between work and real life, haven't been able to spend enough time here yet to feel like I'm really a part of this one. Like any other move, it takes time to meet your neighbors .

I actually agree with the original poster that a lot of the remaining regulars at the Sun fora are quick off the mark with the flamethrowers. Someone up-thread was quite eloquent as to the reason(s), though. My observation is that, even now, if a new poster shows up, asks a question in a reasonable way and shows that they've a) done a certain amount of their own work, and b) are aware of basic etiquette when asking for help from volunteers, they get reasonable responses.

Heaven help them if it looks like they're asking for homework help, though...

Grant

[Jeff Albertson]

Originally posted by Maximilian Xavier Stocker:

We all miss you BigDaddy. Particularly when there are discussions of culinary realted items.

In addition to BigDaddyLoveHandles, I am/was also DrLaszloJamf and ParvatiDevi, among others. Multiple personality disorder don't you know...

[paul wheaton]

Cultural differences are cool. Talking about cultural differences can bait some folks into some less than charming discussion. I think that if I felt the urge to go down this road, I would be on bended knee, hat in hand and fully willing to have my head lopped off.

This may be a good point to mention that MD has one policy that the other forums don't. Posts that are not meaningless drivel will probably be deleted. This subject is treading into something that I think may have meaning ... The one way to test if a post is meaningless drivel, is to delete it - if the poster is upset about it being deleted, it must not have been meaningless drivel.

Sun forums: I used them a little a loooooong time ago. I remember the duke dollars days. I didn't like that much.

When I started these forums, the idea was to reduce the traffic in my mailbox. I really didn't think they would get this big.

I like the town analogy. Kinda makes you wonder about all the different kinds of communities out there. And all the different kinds of towns. Now it seems really important to preserve a "flavor" of community.

Oh yeah: there was mention about the amount of traffic vs. moderation. In the beginning there were 20 posts and I was the moderator. Now there are lots of posts and about 40 active staff members. If traffic picked up, we could just assign more moderators to forums. Maybe we would tap new bartenders more often. Plus, with more people active, there would be more bartender candidates to tap. So I don't think this is a big deal.

Culture here in MD: The staff is probably sick of me going on and on about this. But I have to admit that the flavor we have now is not what we had in the old and moldy days. But thankfully it is far better than it was in the years following 9/11. I would really like to see more jokes, more discussion about stupid stuff and ... well ... more of the kind of flavor that was here before 9/11. It once was a place where I like to hang out on friday afternoons waiting for the clock to hit 4:59. Now ... I think there might be 1 thread out of 20 that I find worth looking at. I try to add some stuff that is of the flavor I like, but ... I dunno ... maybe folks don't find that kind of unwinding as interesting as I do.

[Maximilian Xavier Stocker]

Originally posted by Jeff Albertson:


In addition to BigDaddyLoveHandles, I am/was also DrLaszloJamf and ParvatiDevi, among others. Multiple personality disorder don't you know...

*cough* I did not know you were Laszlo. Hmmmm. I may *cough* have a few *cough* accounts myself. Perhaps.

PS <Jedi hand wave/> I never said anything about any cultural differences. These are not the droids you are looking for.
[ April 12, 2006: Message edited by: Maximilian Xavier Stocker ]

[Max Habibi]

PS <Jedi hand wave/> I never said anything about any cultural differences. These are not the droids you are looking for.

Your Jedi tricks will not work on me, boy
[ April 12, 2006: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Ramender Mall]

First of all, i want to say that I am not writing this to DEBATE the cultural differences. I have never been out of India, so of course can't differentiate India and any place else.

I have just entered into programming field professionally. I will just put what I think is the general approach here towards programming.
(and if the moderators think, this is venturing towards debates about cultures or anything, you are free to delete it, I WONT MIND.
WAIT A SEC, thus technincally or PaulWheatonlly, this becomes MD :roll: . )




[It seems to me that a majority of Western programmers do it because they like (love) it. If I won a 10 million lottery tomorrow I would be writing code on Friday all the same.
I get the sense that for the majority of at least the Indian programmers this is not the case. Programming is seen as a means to achieve a good financial living. ]

Well yeah, it is true that programming helps you in earning a good financial living. BUT what is being overlooked here is that, there are a number of other professions that can help you do the same.

The choice about your profession or field here can be delayed till Senior Standards(say 2 years before one starts his graduation). That decision, i.e. whether you want to go for Medical or Commerce or Engineering or etc. depends on two things ->
1. What you are comfortable with.
2. And Of Course, the prospects in that field for good financial living
I was introduced to my first programming language BASIC, in my 5th standard. I still remember I enjoyed it very much. So, I had no problems in choosing my profession when I had to.
My point is, I am earning a good living BUT at the same time, I am doing what I love to do. And I know a good number of other people, who are doing this as they loved to do this stuff, who are maniacs when it comes to programming. And of course, there are lot more such people there than I know personally. Just discuss a problem with them and they wont be able to sleep well until they find a solution to it.
Try sharing those 10 million dollars with them, and they still will be found coding. (Of Course they will devote less time to it. C'MON YOU GOTTA SPEND THAT MONEY ALSO, MAN ).




[But it's a different viewpoint that explains why for some people cramming for an SCJP exam is a practical way to achieve one's goals while for others such practices are abhorrent. ]

Everbody knows that this is not necessary that a preson with SCJP is any better in JAVA than another. BUT Lets face it, you are enjoying programming and at the same time earning money thro' it, So whats wrong in earning MORE by doing the same thing. If you know that a certification gives you some extra weightage here in IT industry, what the heck, whats wrong in trying for one then. I am sort of repeating the same point as written by you, BUT GOAL--- nah.....




[No group is being attacked or put down or generalized in any negative way.]

I COMPLETELY understand that. and i am not feeling uncomfortable either .




[then fine but look at the cricket threads here]

NO COMMENTS. Hell, we lost the match to england yesterday . So, in no mood to talk about cricket.




Coming back to original topic.
[More often than not if you didn't like the answers you got it's because you didn't ask a very good question and by the time you came here you already had been instructed in one form or another on the importance of asking good questions that can get good responses.]

I dont know about any other person, but for me, JavaRanch was the first discussion forum I joined and truly speaking, from the very first day I am feeling home. And allow me to say that I did not notice the healthy ratio of asians to westerns for a significant time.




[
Originally posted by Jeff Albertson:

In addition to BigDaddyLoveHandles, I am/was also DrLaszloJamf and ParvatiDevi, among others. Multiple personality disorder don't you know...
]
lol!!. Did you know that ParvatiDevi is afemale name?.


- Ramy..
[ April 13, 2006: Message edited by: Ramender Mall ]

[Jeff Albertson]

Originally posted by Ramender Mall:
lol!!. Did you know that ParvatiDevi is a female name?.

Something we should all keep in mind when chatting it up on myspace.com

[Grant Gainey]

OK, I found the articles I was thinking about. If you have any interest in how people communicate using the kind of software we're having this discussion on (and you are interested, or you wouldn't be reading this thread!), you MUST read these two essays:

A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy
and
Social Software and the Politics of Groups

Clay Shirky is a smart guy.

Grant
[ April 13, 2006: Message edited by: Grant Gainey ]

[marc weber]

I probably have less than 20 posts on the Sun forums. Enough said.

[Ramender Mall]

Originally posted by Jeff Albertson:


Something we should all keep in mind when chatting it up on myspace.com

or otherwise you will come to college one day and find all of your friends laughing hysterically at you, till the time you feel embarassed to death. . And you are reminded about the damned case every now and then for next 2 years....

YEAH , THAT WUD BE ME.. , so what, hm...

- Ramy..