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Brainbench interview test

 
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I would like to know how many recruitment agencies require you to complete a brainbench test before being considered for a possible position. My situation is that I hv just completed the SCJP certification and now I am asked to a Brainbench test. Have any of you done a brainbench test and how does it compare with a SCJP test. Your advice will be greatky appreciated.
 
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Russy Dupee wrote:I would like to know how many recruitment agencies require you to complete a brainbench test before being considered for a possible position. My situation is that I hv just completed the SCJP certification and now I am asked to a Brainbench test. Have any of you done a brainbench test and how does it compare with a SCJP test. Your advice will be greatky appreciated.



I believe it covers topics not considered an objective of the SCJP.

There is nothing to keep you from paying to take the exam on your own through brainbench.
 
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I always like rigorous screening processes. When you have a good screening process, you can easily prove to your prospective employer that you are worth X dollars more than your competitor. Also, the employer will be prepared to wait for the right candidate without getting complled to pick one from the bunch. Also, the prospective employer is more likely to wait for your acceptance, while you are wrapping up the other interviews or waiting for other offers.
 
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arulk pillai wrote:I always like rigorous screening processes. When you have a good screening process, you can easily prove to your prospective employer that you are worth X dollars more than your competitor.



Unfortunately, that's not true when it comes to exams and certifications. About the only 2 certs I know that carry serious credibility are the RHCE and CCNP, because they're designed to mirror what people really do at work. Most of the other certs are at best indicators of theoretical knowledge and at worst rote memorization. Their primary value is when dealing with HR departments who don't know technology but use certs as a screen to reduce the applicant pool size.

The ultimate certification is a college degree, and the complaints about the worthlessness of a degree to indicate ability to do the job are legendary.
 
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Most of the other certs are at best indicators of theoretical knowledge and at worst rote memorization


I beg to disagree on this one. I think the Sun Java certifications that I did have been eye openers so far, a great learning experience.
They made me more skillful and hence more confident.
These certifications may not be perfect, but they do improve one's quality of work, please ask my boss.

The ultimate certification is a college degree, and the complaints about the worthlessness of a degree to indicate ability to do the job are legendary.


Can you please elaborate more on this statement if it is meant to emphasize the importance of a degree over professional certifications ?
Btw, I am a degree holder (Bachelor of Electronics), but I can hardly see a direct relation between what I studied in college to my day to day work as a programmer/designer.
The professional certifications on the other hand, did well at making me more suitable for my job.
Now, this is not to say that a College Degree is not worth.It forms the foundation of one's capability to learn and adapt, but on its own it can neither provide nor compensate for the job specific skills.
 
aditee sharma
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Have any of you done a brainbench test and how does it compare with a SCJP test. Your advice will be greatky appreciated.



I did not once, but several times. Brainbench is open book kind of exam.In my opinion SCJP is much superior not only in quality but also because you can not cheat (aka take online or friends help).
No wonder, you'll pass a similar level Brainbench very easily as compared to SCJP.
I think its all about marketing. Brainbench is very aggressive at that.
Now, I have made it a policy to run away as fast as I can whenever a recruiter asks me to take a Brainbench test. Its seems so pointless and a big drain on time.
 
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Learning and understanding things is very usefull and certs may encourage you to do that. But I'm willing to bet you will see a wide range of ability in people with the same certs.

 
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aditee sharma wrote:


Now, I have made it a policy to run away as fast as I can whenever a recruiter asks me to take a Brainbench test. Its seems so pointless and a big drain on time.



Ah, it's only a medium drain on time. But fairly pointless, yes. Besides, as I told the recruiter, I've spent the last 2-1/2 decades doing doing things like mainframe OS-level programming, a commercial C++ compiler, published internationally in mainstream industry journals,etc, etc, etc. Not to mention worked with J2EE since before JSPs were invented (In My Day you young punks, all we had was Servlets. In the Snow. Uphill ...). But oh, no, I had to take the exam. The recruiter was cool, but the HR department lacked the initiative. Among other things, so I don't work there.

I should point out that possessing certs doesn't mean you don't have skills and talent, just that they're no guarantee that you do. And therein lies the problem. The very word "certified", means that someone is asserting a certain ability or accomplishment. If all you've accomplished is to demonstrate that you can answer questions under controlled circumstances, you really haven't shown whether or not you can do actual useful work. In the case of the RHCE, as I understand it, you're given about 4 hours to take an inert box and turn it into a functional enterprise server. That's just about what it commonly took me to bring up an OS/2 system back when I had to endure OS/2 (I'm better now, thank you). Linux I can do in about half that time - much of it spent waiting on the installer program. Providing I'm not throwing the kitchen sink at it. Which is why I respect the RHCE. Unfortunately, an equivalent task in programming takes months, and these days we've gotten away from the concept of guilds and master-pieces.

Far too many exam questions are on trivia whose real-world application is so infrequent I'd have to look up the details anyway (like fine-grained assertion controls), require you to dissect code processes so bad that in real life I'd find the original author and threaten to dissect him. Or worse yet, required a certain level of ignorance on my part, since a lot of solutions have more than one answer when you've accumulated knowledge of many different solutions. I really hate those. Buy yes, I know people with paper credentials who've produced some truly appalling stuff. Some of them have even paid me to help them do things that if their certs meant anything, they should have been able to handle themselves. That's not good.

Obviously there's a considerable difference between a college degree and a certification. A degree takes years to obtain and is supposed to reflect both extensive time gaining competence in the major subject as well as a well-rounded system of knowledge intended to ensure that the recipient is well-educated in general. Many - probably most - certs require little or no formal study and are narrowly focused. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned, innumerable complaints have been made that people fresh out of college are well-nigh useless in the IT profession and for that matter, that some even prefer to hire people with non-IT degrees and train the IT skills into them themselves.

The upshot of all this is that while pretty pieces of paper look nice on the wall, they're mostly limited as a definitive indicator of the ability of their holder to do useful work. This is unfortunate. There's more than enough garbage IT in the world at the moment, and when it comes from a supposedly accredited source that just further detracts from the credibility of the profession as a whole.

 
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From employer's prospective, college degree and experience stands much higher than certifications. While preparing for certifications you may come to know few details which you do not use them in everyday work. But college degrees and experience molds you in different shapes which certifications can not. As mike said

But I'm willing to bet you will see a wide range of ability in people with the same certs.

. This is because different people with different college degrees and experience have been molded in different shapes so they have different abilities.
 
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aditee sharma wrote:
I beg to disagree on this one. I think the Sun Java certifications that I did have been eye openers so far, a great learning experience.


It depends how deep you knew Java before you started preparing for certification. I agree while preparing for certification you may learn new details, but they can not take you above college degree.


Btw, I am a degree holder (Bachelor of Electronics), but I can hardly see a direct relation between what I studied in college to my day to day work as a programmer/designer.

Most college degree does not have direct advantage in your job. But you will see Engineering degree holders are more successful in industry than regular degree holders it is because these years of education creates several abilitites in you.
 
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Rajesh Thakare wrote:
Most college degree does not have direct advantage in your job. But you will see Engineering degree holders are more successful in industry than regular degree holders it is because these years of education creates several abilitites in you.




I will have to strongly agree with you there because I was a mechanical engineer before changing my career to Java/JEE .
 
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I don't mean to denigrate degrees in general. True, a Political Science degree is pretty much a joke - except in Washington D.C.. And degrees in fuzzy/impractical subjects such as 16-Century Welsh History may be of limited utility. But I know of no other major where the primary study is so discounted as it is in Information Technology.

It may be just because the required knowledge base is so vast and so fluid that the first week on the job can typically end up as the equivalent of expecting someone with a degree in Electrical Engineering to do design work on a skyscraper. It could be a number of things.

But the closest thing to a true demonstration of competence in IT is experience, and even that's unreliable. A lot of people manage to coast, especially in an era of reduced expectations. And duration of employment is meaningless now that nearly EVERYONE ends up with a different employer every 2 year or so. You can't tell by the résumé who was incompetent and who was merely made redundant because the project was abandoned.
 
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Learning and understanding things is very usefull and certs may encourage you to do that. But I'm willing to bet you will see a wide range of ability in people with the same certs



True, but isn't this equally true about people holding degrees as well? You can see several degree holders out there who are not exactly experts, to put it lightly.
Ultimately, the ability to do a job is defined by individual initiative.
So, if we keep the slackers out, a person willing to do the job is likely to do better with BOTH a degree and professional certifications under his/her belt.
 
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Rajesh Thakare wrote:Most college degree does not have direct advantage in your job. But you will see Engineering degree holders are more successful in industry than regular degree holders it is because these years of education creates several abilitites in you.



I completely disagree with bothe statements.

Empirically speaking, if a degree did not have a "direct advantage" why would companies require it? Nearly every software job requires an CS or related degree. (Yes, they may make exceptions, but it's widely required.)

Now nearly everyone will tell you that 90% of what you learn in school you'll never use. I think this is what you are referring to. The information itself you probably won't use much; however in software, even if you did use 100% of the knowledge upon graduation, it would still be a small part of your career. Consider that you'll work a 40 years career, now think back to the state of software 40 years ago and how much knowledge has been created since then and how much people needed to learn.

What college degree programs do teach (and this is true of CS, of mech e, of biology, or history, or poly sci, or philosophy, of anything) is how to think. In computer science this includes topics like abstraction lawyers, data process flow, etc. For example, you don't need calculus to write software, but calculus does teach symbolic manipulation which is a critical skill for software developers. These are fundamental tools developers and computer scientists do need.


As for engineering degree holders being more successful regularly degree holders, well, I'm not sure what "regular degree" means but assuming it means non-engineering degree (although engineering degrees are regular degrees of course), there is no evidence supporting this claim.


--Mark
 
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Tim Holloway wrote:I don't mean to denigrate degrees in general. True, a Political Science degree is pretty much a joke - except in Washington D.C.. And degrees in fuzzy/impractical subjects such as 16-Century Welsh History may be of limited utility.



Tim, you may find a poly sci degree a joke but many people do not. History and political science programs teach things like identifying patterns, critical reasoning, research skills, argument formation, etc. Consulting firms regularly hire them, law schools want people with these degrees, so do many other industries. I find the skills valuable and often wish I had had more time to study history in school.

--Mark
 
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I have been working with wide variety of people over the years. I have been overserving them for longer time. I have seen high percentage of people having certification but no real skills on project failing and I have seen high percentage of engineering graduates without any certification are successful. I am not saying this just for sake of arguments. I have actually seen it over several years.
Passing exam and working on project is different. You may find people who have skills to work on project and after doing certification their skills further improves. But basic need is skills to work on projects. Dealing with different challenges. Problem solving skills. Different kinds of reasoning. Well these skills are more helpful on the project.
There must be solid reason why Top IT companies in India always lookout for engineering graduates.
By saying engineering graduates are more successful than regular degree holder, by no means I have any intention to offend anyone. But these are facts and we can not deny it. Regular degree holders may be more successful in other fields where engineering degree holders fails. But in IT, my opnion is engineering graduates are relatively far much for successful at least in India.
In one of the company I know one certification every year was compuslory. So there were lot of certified people in the company. But all were not successful.
Employers not only gives importance to degrees but also gives importance to from which school/college/university you did your degree. Because it makes difference.

 
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Empirically speaking, if a degree did not have a "direct advantage" why would companies require it? Nearly every software job requires an CS or related degree. (Yes, they may make exceptions, but it's widely required.)



What I know about policy of top IT companies in India, when they hire freshers, they hire engineering graduates does not matter if it is computer science. They train them in Java, C++, .net etc. These companies are successful in their business and they are continuing with their policy.
To give you example, it is Infosys. To get hired by this company as a fresher you have to clear aptitude test and you should be engineering graduate.
 
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Rajesh Thakare wrote:
By saying engineering graduates are more successful than regular degree holder, by no means I have any intention to offend anyone. But these are facts and we can not deny it. Regular degree holders may be more successful in other fields where engineering degree holders fails. But in IT, my opnion is engineering graduates are relatively far much for successful at least in India.



Facts? You haven't provided any facts, only speculation.

Yes, in IT schools want to hire people with engineering backgrounds more than others, just as the US the media tends to hire more people with degrees in journalism, English, history, and related fields. The fact that a particular industry prefers a degree is no indiciation of the relative success of the degree compared to others in general.


--Mark
 
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Mark Herschberg wrote: The fact that a particular industry prefers a degree is no indiciation of the relative success of the degree compared to others in general.



Then what is indication of success ? We can not go and do survey from companies to companies and bring some figures. We have to rely on something. If I have company, I will hire only those people who can be successful on their jobs, because ultimately company's success is it's employees' success. And I will hire only those who can be successful and ultimately give me success. If particular industry is hiring specific people, there should be reason behind it. And I see one of the reason is those specific people are relatively more successful in kind of business I am doing.

The reason which I see why these companies hire more engineering graduates is this.
To get admission in engineering you need to have very good marks in 12th Std. So most of the students are bright. Engineering course is 4 years and every year we have two semesters. Every semester has 5 subjects. Before every semester there is atleast three weeks holidays. So for 5 subjects with theory exams plus practical exams, you get around 5 months. So to prepare for 5 theory papers and practical exams, students get around 5 months. The regular degree exams gets relatively more time. Lot of engineering colleges do not have all the resources for example good lecturers. Students who handle this every semester and pass engineering exams have already came through some hard time as compared to regular degrees( Arts/Commerce/ Science). This may be the reason why they can get success easier.
Declaimer: All these I have posted is based on my information on Indian colleges and companies which may not be applicable to other countries.
 
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Rajesh Thakare wrote:Then what is indication of success ? We can not go and do survey from companies to companies and bring some figures. We have to rely on something. If I have company, I will hire only those people who can be successful on their jobs, because ultimately company's success is it's employees' success. And I will hire only those who can be successful and ultimately give me success.



I think in this discussion we've defined success as "being hired by an Indian IT company". I'm not sure if that proves anything - I'd be far more interested in seeing what happens to different graduates 1, 2, 5 or 10 years after hiring or entrance into the industry. That to me would be a far better predictor of success.

If particular industry is hiring specific people, there should be reason behind it. And I see one of the reason is those specific people are relatively more successful in kind of business I am doing.



That's certainly one reason, but by no means the only one. Until relatively recently, it was quite difficult for someone who wasn't a white male to advance in corporate America. There was a reason for it, but it wasn't because white males are more successful, and in the last 30 years have become dramatically less successful than before.

Mark has an excellent point (speaking as a History graduate here) - a lot of liberal arts degrees teach critical thinking and pattern recognition rather than memorization and learning of rules, which can be essential in creative problem solving and writing (both in English and a programming language). Outside of areas where mathematics skills are critical, I've not seen any advantage to a CS or engineering degree in my years in the industry. In fact, where I currently am now we have more liberal arts graduates (and non-graduates) than traditional CS or engineering types in our architecture group.

Cheers!

Luke
 
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Rajesh Thakare wrote:

Mark Herschberg wrote: The fact that a particular industry prefers a degree is no indiciation of the relative success of the degree compared to others in general.



Then what is indication of success ?



I think the trouble you're having is misunderstanding the meaning of "success." Those with engineering degrees are certainly more in demand by IT companies, but again but that is not success compared to degrees in general. It's like saving those who play instruments are more in demand by orchestras. It's not a measurement of success; it's basically one step up from a tautology.

--Mark
 
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Mark, I completely understand what you mean by success. But this discussion started with success on job success in softwares. I already said there are fields in which other degree holders are successful and engineering degree holder failed. So everything which I posted is with the assumption success is related to on job work in software excluding other fields.
 
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Russy Dupee--if this is taking your thread too far off topic let us know and we'll prevent further hijacking.


Rajesh Thakare wrote:Mark, I completely understand what you mean by success. But this discussion started with success on job success in softwares. I already said there are fields in which other degree holders are successful and engineering degree holder failed. So everything which I posted is with the assumption success is related to on job work in software excluding other fields.



Actually, this thread started with a question about Brainbench tests.

If you want to discuss what makes someone successful, let's carefully define what success is. Is it getting hired for a job? Is it making lots of money? Is it career advancement? Is it contributing to projects more than others?

And then if we're comparing to other degrees, let's make a far comparison. Saying those with medicals degrees are more likely to be hired by hospitals is not a discussion worth anyone's time. Saying those with medical degrees are more successful in the medical profession is equally pointless. So if you want to say those with engineering degrees are more likely to be hired by the IT industry, fine, no one will contest that.


--Mark
 
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So if you want to say those with engineering degrees are more likely to be hired by the IT industry, fine, no one will contest that.



This is what I wanted to say.
 
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I do appreciate all the comments ,but I mainly wanted to discuss about Brainbench and their certifications and what am I in for. Easier or more difficult than SCJP. Why do recruiters trust Brainbench when I have SCJP to show that I have completed a difficult test.
 
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Russy Dupee wrote:I do appreciate all the comments ,but I mainly wanted to discuss about Brainbench and their certifications and what am I in for. Easier or more difficult than SCJP. Why do recruiters trust Brainbench when I have SCJP to show that I have completed a difficult test.



I actually think a test is a good idea -- not a great idea as it won't catch everyone, but a good idea nonetheless. IMO, it should help thin the crowd, which is what HR is supposed to do.

The general idea is to hire a person that has some "experience" -- Homework problems. Maybe an internship. At the very least, should be comfortable using Java. And heck, probably writing programs for fun too!! Of course, these people also got aggressive into learning Java, and pass the SCJP test.

However, there are some that do little to no hands-on. Learn Java purely by rote memorization. And never touch a Java compiler after passing the test. It's amazing how much people forget when they do this -- and the test should help cut them here.


And I don't think that recruiters "trust" Brainbench over Sun. It is more like they can outsource the testing to BrainBench. I think any test will help with the early cut.

Henry
 
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Russy Dupee wrote:I do appreciate all the comments ,but I mainly wanted to discuss about Brainbench and their certifications and what am I in for. Easier or more difficult than SCJP. Why do recruiters trust Brainbench when I have SCJP to show that I have completed a difficult test.


<cynical>Because if you have a college degree but haven't a clue as to what makes a person technologically qualified, you can probably get a position in Human Resources.</cynical>

 
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Im a bit surprised if the recruiters insist on brainbench when you have SCJP. IMHO SCJP is of greater quality than brainbench because of not one but multiple reasons.

SCJP covers all the topics and the weightage of topics is pretty balanced. In fact, if you score anything above 85 or 90% in SCJP then you must have gone through at least most of core-java topics. About brain-bench the sampling isn't that uniform.

Anyway, there are times when BrainBench offers free exam. Give it a try at that time.
 
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I didn't go through each one of the replies and I am just stating my experience.

The brainbench test or any other online tests are usually conducted by "technical" recruiters who want to filter out candidates based on their own cut off criteria. These guys lack technical expertise to conduct a phone screen interview. If you've done your SCJP, you can easily get 60%-70% (maybe even higher) of the questions correct and that should land you with a good percentile.

I've personally felt this is a waste of my time and I prefer being interviewed directly by my potential employer. I think interviews which may include white board questions, on the spot analytical questions apart from the usual interviews, assess a candidate far better. I have some interview experience; varying from the easiest to the toughest and based on that I would chose to give the brainbench exam depending only on the below scenarios:

1. I really want to join the company and this exam is a part of their recruitment process.
2. I don't have a job or looking for one desperately (whatever be the reason) and I just have to go through it anyway.

I wouldn't give this exam for any other reason.
 
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Rajesh Thakare wrote:I have been working with wide variety of people over the years. I have been overserving them for longer time. I have seen high percentage of people having certification but no real skills on project failing and I have seen high percentage of engineering graduates without any certification are successful. I am not saying this just for sake of arguments. I have actually seen it over several years.
Passing exam and working on project is different. You may find people who have skills to work on project and after doing certification their skills further improves. But basic need is skills to work on projects. Dealing with different challenges. Problem solving skills. Different kinds of reasoning. Well these skills are more helpful on the project.
There must be solid reason why Top IT companies in India always lookout for engineering graduates.
By saying engineering graduates are more successful than regular degree holder, by no means I have any intention to offend anyone. But these are facts and we can not deny it. Regular degree holders may be more successful in other fields where engineering degree holders fails. But in IT, my opnion is engineering graduates are relatively far much for successful at least in India.
In one of the company I know one certification every year was compuslory. So there were lot of certified people in the company. But all were not successful.
Employers not only gives importance to degrees but also gives importance to from which school/college/university you did your degree. Because it makes difference.




I agree with you completely. I have observed this in Sydney as well.
 
Henry Wong
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1. I really want to join the company and this exam is a part of their recruitment process.
2. I don't have a job or looking for one desperately (whatever be the reason) and I just have to go through it anyway.

I wouldn't give this exam for any other reason.



Meh. I walked into interviews before, and got immediately sent to a test. It doesn't bother me. It's their interview, and I had already agreed to allocate my time for it. So... why not?

On the other hand, I agree that it is somewhat a waste of time, and I will think a bit harder about giving up more of my time to continue the endeavor. But if I am not doing anything else, also... why not?


I think it is best not to take it personally. This is what big companies do (and even small companies that want to be big companies). They create paperwork. They create processes. It's annoying sometimes. But it's not personal.

Henry
 
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Brainbench tests and certificates are a marketing ploy to generate revenue from online testing. It is a joke and cannot really be considered. Unfortunately, customers of Brainbench services have already spent thier money and feel they need to use the services.

It is strongly suggested that you should avoid online testing by third-parties and only take technical tests directly administered by the employer that your are interviewing with.

Cheers
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