Java outlook for newcomers?

[Brad Andreessen]

I'm just one semester away from graduating with my b.s. in comp sci. For those of you who have been Java developers for a while how is the job outlook for newcomers?



Regards,
incredible_hulk

[Paul Clapham]

"incredible hulk", please check your private messages regarding an important administrative matter.

Thank you.

[Brad Andreessen]

Paul Clapham wrote:"incredible hulk", please check your private messages regarding an important administrative matter.

Thank you.

Important administrative matter resolved...my name is Brad.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Thank you Brad.

Right now the job outlook isn't "good" for anything. However, some large companies hire a certain number of college students every year. I don't know whether that is affected yet.

[Brad Andreessen]

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Thank you Brad.

Right now the job outlook isn't "good" for anything. However, some large companies hire a certain number of college students every year. I don't know whether that is affected yet.

Yeah the current outlook for the job market has got me a little concerned. However, I'm thinking if I can spend the next few months before I graduate working on some specific areas in Java I might have a better chance of landing something. Any idea what is in demand these days for Java developers?

I read the postings on monster, career builder, indeed, dice, and others but the way all these job descriptions read they are wish list and literally impossible for a new grad to meet due to the breadth of skills they seek. So, that's why I'm trying to get some advice on where I may can focus some more of my time.

[Jane Somerfield]

Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

[Bear Bibeault]

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

Hogwash.

[Brad Andreessen]

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

Well, I don't know if I would choose an overall winner or loser regarding the two technologies. I do believe that Sun has not handled the marketing and branding of Java as well as they could have over the years while Microsoft has done a pretty good job with .Net.

With the many jobs I've looked through from all over the country I can say that a lot were for .Net so it has established itself. However, I prefer Java so that is what I would like to focus on as I job hunt for the next few months until graduation. The issue I'm running into, and this applies to both .Net and Java, is that these job posting are almost all written for someone with a broad set of skills. Sure I can do html, javascript, css, and some Java but like most coming out of university we have some theory and can write some code but there's a gap between our foundation and what is desired in most development teams in corporate IT departments. So, I'm trying to either narrow that gap or at least find the one or two things I can focus on in the coming months that will help me be better prepared.

The job market isn't completely wrecked and I do believe I'll find a job but it will just be tougher and will require a bit more effort on my part to get noticed out of all the other potential candidates. So, any suggestions are appreciated.

[Bear Bibeault]

Get involved in a an open source project. Start an open source project. Develop a whiz-bang web app that does something useful. Write an insightful blog. Contribute articles. Answer questions here on the Ranch. ....

Do something to distinguish yourself from the crowd of "I went to school and got good grades" that you will be competing with.

[Mark Herschberg]

Brad Andreessen wrote:
I read the postings on monster, career builder, indeed, dice, and others but the way all these job descriptions read they are wish list and literally impossible for a new grad to meet due to the breadth of skills they seek. So, that's why I'm trying to get some advice on where I may can focus some more of my time.

Well of course. If you talk to 100 executive recruiters I'll bet you don't qualify for anything they have either. But in both cases you're looking in a vein not designed for your needs.

Many companies don't post job listings for new college grads on the sites you list, instead they recruiter directly out of college and their career offices. (Now some of these colleges outsource some of this process to some of these job boards--but I'm not sure those listings are coderanch.) I would start with your college career office and then while not to the exclusion of the sites you mentioned focus on sites like CollegeRecruiter.com

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

I see no evidence for either of these statements.


--Mark

[Jane Somerfield]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

Hogwash.

Remember, be nice.

I saw you had similar options in several postings on some of the open source frameworks if you are the same Bear.

[Jane Somerfield]

Brad Andreessen wrote:

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

Well, I don't know if I would choose an overall winner or loser regarding the two technologies. I do believe that Sun has not handled the marketing and branding of Java as well as they could have over the years while Microsoft has done a pretty good job with .Net.

With the many jobs I've looked through from all over the country I can say that a lot were for .Net so it has established itself. However, I prefer Java so that is what I would like to focus on as I job hunt for the next few months until graduation. The issue I'm running into, and this applies to both .Net and Java, is that these job posting are almost all written for someone with a broad set of skills. Sure I can do html, javascript, css, and some Java but like most coming out of university we have some theory and can write some code but there's a gap between our foundation and what is desired in most development teams in corporate IT departments. So, I'm trying to either narrow that gap or at least find the one or two things I can focus on in the coming months that will help me be better prepared.

The job market isn't completely wrecked and I do believe I'll find a job but it will just be tougher and will require a bit more effort on my part to get noticed out of all the other potential candidates. So, any suggestions are appreciated.

Take the SCJP is the first step. Do some Java projects using JSP, Servlet, JDBC, JEE, JPA on your laptop.
I do not think working on open sources is a good idea.
I worked with some proud open-source contributors, and they just could not deliver the real company project even using their framework...

[Jane Somerfield]

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

I see no evidence for either of these statements.
--Mark

The evidence is that it is very difficult for the companies to find Java people with a long list skills of open source tools, unless some H1Bs with fake resumes.

[Mark Herschberg]

Jane Somerfield wrote:

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Jane Somerfield wrote:Java has been messed by open sources. The propitiatory-based Microsoft technologies is winning now.

Hogwash.

Remember, be nice.

Moderator Comment:
The essence of the be nice is to be respectful of other people. Ideas can and should be challenged and debated.


Personal Comment:
I think Bear's comments are similar to mine. You made a statement. Bear and I disagree with you. Thus far you have provided no evidence. Saying it's, "very difficult for the companies to find Java people" seems like a personal opinion. I could say "there is high demand for Java developers and Java is in far more widely used." Of course, my statement carries just as little weight because neither of us provided actual evidence. I'd recommend citing (from reputable sources) number of developers, number of projects with different technologies, number of open roles and how long those roles have been open, etc.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but thus far there's no evidence that you're right. Bear's comment, like my own, showed our disagreement and lack of convincing evidence.


--Mark

[Bear Bibeault]

My personal disdain for certain open-source frameworks in no way reflects upon their general popularity, and certainly not of Java in general or its demand in the marketplace.

And Mark put it very eloquently -- in no way is disagreeing with your assessment not nice.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Jane Somerfield wrote:
I do not think working on open sources is a good idea.
I worked with some proud open-source contributors, and they just could not deliver the real company project even using their framework...

And I've interviewed people with "real" experience who couldn't deliver. Some open source contributors are going to be better than others. As with everything else. I don't think contributing to open source will make anyone worse off. After all practice makes perfect in our industry. Getting feedback from others via an open source project seems like a good thing to me. And if nothing else, it gives Brad something to talk about at an interview.