• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Paul Clapham
  • Ron McLeod
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Bear Bibeault
Sheriffs:
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Tim Cooke
  • Devaka Cooray
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Moores
  • Tim Holloway
  • Piet Souris
  • salvin francis
  • Stephan van Hulst
Bartenders:
  • Frits Walraven
  • Carey Brown
  • Jj Roberts

Clash of Civilizations!!

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
First, governments in secular nations have no laws which give advantage to any particular religion or disadvantage to any particular religion. This seems to hold true in all other secular nations, is it true in India? Anti-conversion laws that have been passed in many states indicate that this is not true.

Do you know, in India to respect other religions, we have diffrent personal Laws for different religions.
They are free to make their own choice.
Yes, they are free to make their own choice, not forced.(which for you cant be forced becasue gun is not on his forehead...)
Does all of this hold true in India?
Yes, do you still have a doubt ??
Secular states do not have anti-conversion laws. Secular states do not make conversion illegal or ban it.
I think you can read english.
We have laws to prevent forced conversion. not to prevent conversion.
For that matter, no free nation does those things.
But can curse any religion .... what a definition of free nation
Why would you pretend to be something you're not?
We dont pretend anything. The thing you can not see beyond some politocal/social boundry where changing religion is like changing clothes.
Do you know why is this?? becasue you guys dont know what a society means.
See your nation..... one comes and says that its Christian country.. even he is not sure, he adds Juedo-Christian country.
Then after sometime someone says, 25% dont consider it to be Christian country ...
Man .. go,first know what is your counytry.
Atleast we Indian can standup together and say that we are democratic secular country.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to "rule" the US, run for President.


Can I run for President ??
 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Vin Kris:
Please. Gimme a break. Any Indian who still believes in this is a religious extremist.


I don't disagree. I only ask because a more socially advantaged people claiming they know what is best for a more socially disadvantaged group of people, as some here have done, reeks of classism. Classist views may be based on fear of losing one's position in society. Do you think classism plays any part at all in the backlash against conversion?
So what you are saying is you believe the fear relates mostly to a fear of losing one's culture. I can understand where that fear might come from, but do you think this is a rational fear given that some 80%+ of the population of India is Hindu?
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Good post.


I feel that there is other nation's lady who can understand much better than US's man
Becasue they know how to see beyond certain limit.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Yes, they are free to make their own choice, not forced.(which for you cant be forced becasue gun is not on his forehead...)


And by "forced" you mean anything whatsoever that might possibly convince somebody to re-evaluate their choice of religion. By the definitions you guys have given, if I said to you "Hey want to be a Christain? It's loads of fun!" and as a result you converted, that would be "forced". :roll:

Yes, do you still have a doubt ??


You've given no evidence to make me think otherwise.

We have laws to prevent forced conversion. not to prevent conversion.


Why don't you tell us all about the conversion laws ni Orissa, as one example.

But can curse any religion .... what a definition of free nation


It's called freedom of speech. You really can't grasp the concept, can you? It must be our complex society that you would have to live in to understand. :roll:

We dont pretend anything. The thing you can not see beyond some politocal/social boundry where changing religion is like changing clothes.


Nor is it a matter of genetics.

Do you know why is this?? becasue you guys dont know what a society means.


That must be it.

See your nation..... one comes and says that its Christian country.. even he is not sure, he adds Juedo-Christian country.
Then after sometime someone says, 25% dont consider it to be Christian country ...
Man .. go,first know what is your counytry.


It makes no difference to me what people consider this country. Why would it?

Atleast we Indian can standup together and say that we are democratic secular country.


You can say it...
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


It doesn't matter that basic human rights and freedoms transcend locale, we don't want to talk about that, do we.


Hello, fellow forum members, did anyone "forced" Jason not to talk about "Basic human rights" here? He is the upholder of ""Basic human rights" in every country in the world. :roll:
Jason, hundard posts back you said to Axel that you dont understand what your opponent is talking about. I didnt want to bring it at that time. I just wanted to see how far you can go. hmm.. I didnt note the current post number. 600?
After that,


Yes, the poor ignorant outsiders cannot hope to understand your terribly complex society.


I dont know whether you mean it or not, but after this many post, I came to the same conclusion.
If you try to argue about something which you dont understand, people will laugh at you (I dont want to say what they might think about you).


If a person (educated or otherwise) chooses to believe he is witnessing real miracles,


real miracles? 100's in a single day and that too very often?? . The person who choose to believe must be either brainwashed or you know I dont have any problem with that and I am NOT forcing him not to believe in it. I think you already used some fancy english name for the people who do that miracles. I think of them as "cheaters" (I think I am not violating any "Basic Human Rights", do I? ) . BTW, who are those people anyway?
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Forced conversion
Now only God can explain what is FORCED conversion. (or better you search on net, you might find it in words you can understand... I think I should have given you link to some Balasaheb's speech, though I hate that man. I think after meeting people like Jaosn, he speaks the right language to define such people.)
You've given no evidence to make me think otherwise.
you cant wake up a guy who is not sleeping.
Why don't you tell us all about the conversion laws ni Orissa, as one example.
What do you want to say ??
AW its our internal matter dont poke your nose.
You really can't grasp the concept, can you?
If you dont know about India then why cant you keep your mouth shut.
FYI In India we also have freedom of speech but our society (but you dont know what does society mean... ) does not allow to abuse other religion and hurt other people feeling.
You can say what do you want as you dont know what a civilzed society means...
That must be it
Thats it
It makes no difference to me what people consider this country. Why would it?
Because these are americans.. and they dont know what is their country
You can say it...
We say it proudly
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 154
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Originally posted by Jason Menard:
So what you are saying is you believe the fear relates mostly to a fear of losing one's culture. I can understand where that fear might come from, but do you think this is a rational fear given that some 80%+ of the population of India is Hindu?


No Jason. It is not rational in entirety. I did say "popular sentiment among a few currently". These few are a fraction of the 80%+ of the population. This actually opens the door for the way of life in India. Indians have strong family ties - rest follows viz., respect & caring for elders, family members, culture, hospitality. The fear is that all this changing. The sentiments usually arise at every Indian festival. All the pomp and splendor with which we used celebrate our festivals is slowing diminishing in the cities. It is slowly spreading into the towns & villages too. Well.. I must honestly add that inflation and laws too have a role, albeit a small one in this case.
There have also been times when valentine's day was tried to be banned. But who can stop young people in love?
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
First, governments in secular nations have no laws which give advantage to any particular religion or disadvantage to any particular religion. This seems to hold true in all other secular nations, is it true in India? Anti-conversion laws that have been passed in many states indicate that this is not true.


Again, dont lecture me about what secular nations do and what others dont do. Did you care to find out the truth about anti conversion laws passed in my country? What does it say?


Second, the citizens of secular nations do not go around dictating what religions people can choose for themselves. Unless they are a bigot or something, they don't care what a person's religion is.


SHOW ME ONE SINGE POST WHICH DICTATES ANYTHING LIKE THAT
*** sigh *** I think I am wasting my time arguing with some one who doesnt want to listen what other person is trying to say.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There is nothing wrong if you are opposed by lot of people.... it happens .
Sometines you dont know that you are wrong. You realize it later.
But later is better than never.
sometime you say, I am not able to digest that people are supporting killing of innocent people but try to save CATHOLIC missionaries. Though no one has supported killing of people. no one is against conversion, no one is against missioanries as such, if they want to help.
Then you come up with something else.. then something else.....
By God, you are man or moron

I asked a question and no one replies.
Can I run for president?
if not then why ??
Do you fear blah blah blah ......
.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

What is it you fear about a person changing his religion away from Hinduism?

Dear Jason,
there is no fear, why dont you try to understand that we/I am against the way he is being converted.
Are you afraid that your religion will eventually disapper as a result?

No way... You want to say Hindu society will disapper.
Come India, I will show you *castesim* in Chritians and even in Muslims
And you think, we have fear of our society..
I think missionaries if they want to protect Chritianity, they should stop conversion, atleast in India.
Are you afraid that the lower classes will rise up and you will lose prestige/position in your society?
I think as someone said and I said it already 100 post before. Now in India castesim is going away.
Prestiege or position, no one can lose OR gain in one day.
I think now you have got the answer.
Do you have any other question. I would love to help you to know more about anything other than US.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
I feel that there is other nation's lady who can understand much better than US's man
Becasue they know how to see beyond certain limit.


Hm... In case you refer to me, please, do not set us against each other. We can do it ourselves.
I think, Jason has a sharpened feeling of what is right and what is wrong, compared to rest of the population. Unfortunately, when we feel strong about something, it makes us see the world polarized: black-or-white. If you are against forced conversions (whatever it is) but did not say explicitly several times that you do not support murders, then you probably support them. And so on... In short, the result is a shortage of tolerance. The result is you do not hear what others are saying any more. I know what I am talking about because all these profound observations I made watching myself in similar situations.
Jason, how you put your opinion makes other feel attacked, and a normal human reaction is to fight back or at minimum become defensive, whether we speak to Indians or Americans. Not everybody can overcome this natural reaction and respond rationally. You make it very difficult to agree with you, even if you are right.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
http://www.rediff.com/news/may/16varsha.htm
Search for "Bombay Times reported" in this article if you don't have patience to read full article.
I'm trying to find the Bombay Times archive to find this news.
Thomas, segment of this article explain what *forced conversion* is.
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I have asked this 100 times but you haven't answered. What exactly is a "forced" conversion? Since you have laws against it, what does the law precisely say? What is a missionary allowed to do and what is he not allowed to do under the law? What is the penalty for violating the law?


It was answered plenty of time. you called it bribary and we called it force. you may call it with any name, but we know the ground reality. You asked(&may ask) what the heck wrong with you if another person accept money from someone and do whatever he wants to do in return. By giving bribary, you spoil him, you spoil the socity he belong. I am part of that socity and most of the Indians opposing here are part of the same socity. If my socity is spoiled by some morons, we will oppose it. We dont give a damn about what others think and say about it. Because, when the socity gets spoiled, we are the one going to get affected not you. Please, Just for argument sake, dont come and say bribary wont spoil anyone.
In our country, it is very common to see people call a dark person(known to them) "black" (in native language). mostly people dont get offended. That doesnt mean I can go to an african and say what is wrong if somebody else call you something something (sorry no offence meant to anyone. I really mean it).
I hope I made my point clear and (again) answered your question.


And what is a "fraudulent" conversion? If I tell you that if you convert I will give you $5 how is that fraudulent if I give you the $5?


Ok.. you(not you, just an example) go to person "x" and ask him to say "Could you please say to sankar that he is stupid?". And that person doesnt agree with you. And now you say "I will give you $x if you say so". That person agreesm, come and say to me that word. Now you come to me and say that guy is willingly said that word and you didnt make him to do it. Can I say you are a "fraud"?


One last thing... you say that a son would never go against his father. But if the father converts then didn't he go against his father? Isn't there a flaw in your logic?


What if he lost his father or His father also agrees because of his son's situation?
For your pleasure, here is a well balanced (atleast IMO) article on forced conversion law..
http://www.samachar.com/features/171002-features.html
The place he is talking about is where I came from - Madurai, TamilNadu. My family lives there. Now, can you say it is non of my business and I should have a blind eye on what is going on around me even if those morons corrupt my socity around me? If you say I should, then what rights do you have to bomb Iraq, Iran and afghanistan and whole bunch of other country when you are threatened?
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"a meticulously planned pogrom against the Muslim community."
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/RoyGujurat.htm
What a joy to find a home word...
"pogrom:
An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.
[Russian, outrage, havoc, from pogromit', to wreak havoc : po-, adverbial pref. (from po, next to) + gromit', to outrage, wreak havoc (from grom, thunder).]
Never thought I would meet it in an English article about Indian-Muslim problems... Nice to see that your home country found a way to contribute to civilization -- it gives the world the best it has: "bolshevik", "vodka", "sputnik", "pogrom"...
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Feeling tired .... slept only for 15 min.
But still if anyone of you have any other question, we would love to give answer and I can awake one full night again.
Now it is not needed to close as it is dead and served its purpose.
Thanks for your views & ideas and we wish that we have cleared all doubts.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 149
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Vin Kris:

No Jason. It is not rational in entirety. I did say "popular sentiment among a few currently". These few are a fraction of the 80%+ of the population. This actually opens the door for the way of life in India. Indians have strong family ties - rest follows viz., respect & caring for elders, family members, culture, hospitality. The fear is that all this changing. The sentiments usually arise at every Indian festival.
There have also been times when valentine's day was tried to be banned. But who can stop young people in love?


Thats right, fear is not about religion but 'loosing the culture'.Although these people constitute fraction of 80% population,they have a strong hold over political power,finance(this fraction holds 95% of black money(unaccounted)) and education.After getting the independence, this fraction ridiculed nation's policies like social welfare for the poor,non align movement,public education,reservation of the Scheduled caste/tribes etc.In short until 1980s ,this fraction had a lot of control(including culture) over the country indirectly.
Country was about to become bankcrupt in 80s due to heavy corruption,false projects which started in second phase after independence(1965-1980).
Globalisation was a need,there was no other option which started in 1991.Fraction saw this as a boon.Buying a personal computer which used to take 1 month in early 80s ,was now available in 1 hour.Globalization also brought cultural impact in last 12 years.and this was(is) the worry of this fraction.They want all the advantages but want their society(and culture) under control which is becoming difficult day by day.So India's education minister(who belongs to RSS) declares 'Silicon chips-yes Potato chips-No'
Shivsena(another hindu extremist party) and some Muslim organizations agree on one point that 'Valentine's day is spoiling the culture so should be banned'
Missionaries/mullahs are the victims of this fraction's frustration of loosing cultural ground.Remember that missionaries have the presence in India since more than 1000 years(If I m not wrong, St Peter was the one who first arrived in Kerala).but this 'conversion' issue is surfacing in the last 12/15 years only.
1)Fraction want their kids to get the education from the best schools in the world but not to forget their culture.
2)Fraction wants government to increase the bandwidth for internet access at low cost but ban the those web sites which could spoil Indian youth.
3)Fraction welcomes when Ford/Mercedez bring a new model in the market but protest heavily when Govt thinks for charging the vehicle parked on a street.
posted by Von Kris
{
All the pomp and splendor with which we used celebrate our festivals is slowing diminishing in the cities. It is slowly spreading into the towns & villages too. Well.. I must honestly add that inflation and laws too have a role, albeit a small one in this case.
}
Thats why we see people celebrating festivals which I havn't heard of 20 years back .This temple used to attract very few people until 15 years back,now on Tuesdays/holidays it overflows so that management had to request corporation for extra security.People queue up from 4 AM from morning.Inflation and laws have infact bigger role than cluture/religion etc.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: rahul rege ]
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
"a meticulously planned pogrom against the Muslim community."
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/RoyGujurat.htm
What a joy to find a home word...
"pogrom:
An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.
[Russian, outrage, havoc, from pogromit', to wreak havoc : po-, adverbial pref. (from po, next to) + gromit', to outrage, wreak havoc (from grom, thunder).]
Never thought I would meet it in an English article about Indian-Muslim problems... Nice to see that your home country found a way to contribute to civilization -- it gives the world the best it has: "bolshevik", "vodka", "sputnik", "pogrom"...


Mapraputa Is, The is not very common in Indian newspaper. You can find lots of articles about Indian-muslim and Indian-Christian problem but you wouldnt find that many article about Indian-Hindu problem. I am not justifying anything but that is whole different story. BTW, Arundhati Roy is very famous for Indu-pakistani bhai bhai (meaning Indian - pakistanis are brothers) even though pakistan backed terriorists kill thousands of people every year throughout our country. Well. That is a whole different and never ending story.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2166
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by <DKL>:
http://www.rediff.com/news/may/16varsha.htm


I know very little about India and indian politics, but I would call this an absolute acceptable point of view.
We all know from empirics that conversion to islam or christianity wasn't allways good for the converted. Examples you may find in Africa or maybe South America.
On the other hand countries with a certain continuity of their culture and religion like Japan or Taiwan did quite well.
Sometimes bad guys with power evocate a artificial picture of a local culture which is pure propagenda to create cohesion in the population. Some intelectual outsiders of the arabic world say that many things which are sold as islamic tradition today aren't such. It has no contact to history of islam. Its just a reflex against problems of westernization, which can't be reversed. The german nazi did that in evocating the healthiness of germanic tribal life (these shivery people who wasn't occupied by the romans, because there was no economic reason to occupy).
But this is simply not the case here. Of course there must be big social problems in India. But will conversion solve them? I think not. If here would be some holy men from India, funded by Indian resources, I wouldn't like them neither.
A society can only reach a development to the more positive out of itself. Strong coupling with some other cultures might help. Like for example german binding to the west after nazi time. As we know, not allways.
amen
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1936
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And did it turn you into a Christian?


Did you miss my point? Or are you just ignoring it?
Did that turn me into a Christian or not is not the question. As others posted, outcome is not the problem here, but the way its being done, is.
Anyway, back to my question! Are they tolerant to other religions? From my experience, NO.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Nothing to say much....
Appreciate Axel and laugh on Rahul.
Welcome Silicon chip - No Potato Chip.
Rahul when you buy a fruit, let us say mango. Do you eat whole fruit.
No you eat what is your need. You dont eat peel of mango.
Our need is right now to make more progress in field of science and technology and at the same time improve our social system.
If this silicon chip would have not been welcome by our great primeministers (it includes all PMs not only current one) we could have not done Nuclear test in reign of Indira Gandhi and then now in reign of Atal.
And if you cant change your time,(I am saying this because of link you have given.)then its your problem.
And FYI now *Kargil* is a tourist place. Do you have any thing to say?
We can & have improved a lot. We just need some more motivation.
If I am bad I will remain bad whatever religion I accept. I have to change myself, not the religion.
Serva Dharma Sambhava: (All religions are equal)
 
Pradip Bhat
Ranch Hand
Posts: 149
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
Nothing to say much....
Appreciate Axel and laugh on Rahul.
Welcome Silicon chip - No Potato Chip.
Rahul when you buy a fruit, let us say mango. Do you eat whole fruit.
No you eat what is your need. You dont eat peel of mango.
Our need is right now to make more progress in field of science and technology and at the same time improve our social system.
We can & have improved a lot. We just need some more motivation.


I am against hindu extremists who claim to have taken the contract of patriotism and discard others.
Statement thrown by the minister may be fine but he is not the right person to say that.Bcos in BJP's tenure only country has seen array of scandals/scams from coffin to Banks. Also minister is busy in saffronising the education curriculum instead of looking into the much real life problems relating to education.Also instead of motivating population,they are interested in counting those who don't want to say 'Vande Mataram'and creating useless issues.Atal Vajpayee is more interested in blaming minority instead of solving the issues.
Another important point is:Reason for the progress related to science/tech lies in the breed of people who formed the policies in 50s/60s and not related to current breed politicians. .
Regarding social system,BJP govt is busy in selling public sector units at fraction of the cost to private companies.I am sure you can imagine whats happening behind these 'transparent conracts'
Om Shanti: Shanti: Shanti ( Let there be peace in individual,society,universe)
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: rahul rege ]
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
{
Originally posted by <DKL>:
http://www.rediff.com/news/may/16varsha.htm
}
That was an interesting article.From the article

Politics in the garb of religion is a fact of life: As Jomo Kenyatta said in Absurdities in the name of Religion, "When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the Bible. They taught us to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible."

LOL.
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by rahul rege:
[QB]
I am against hindu extremists who claim to have taken the contract of patriotism and discard others.


True, extremists can not take contract of patriotism. But you cant call the patriotic person an extremist.


Bcos in BJP's tenure only country has seen array of scandals/scams from coffin to Banks.


ha ha ha.. True, Scandals was introduced to India only when BJP came to power. Before that people were very honest and no corruption at all. And all the non-BJP state government still very pure, untouched by the evil BJP's corruption mentality.


Also minister is busy in saffronising the education curriculum instead of looking into the much real life problems relating to education.


pseudo seculars.. Care to quote are give me the link which tells me the lessions and text you find it saffron color? Dont show me stupid links from our newspaper's news on protest and all other crap. Just so me the exact texts not one or two para.
Yea.. we have poor. So why spend on Army, disband it and give the money to poor and open the border to PEACE loving community. Afterall , hindus are the one evil and dont care about the poor. Right?


Atal Vajpayee is more interested in blaming minority instead of solving the issues.


LOL... why quote on that poor guy only. He is much better than the politicians you are trying to support. Dont you think you can say the same thing to all our politicians? Tell me one politician who is really trying to solve the religious problem?


Another important point is:Reason for the progress related to science/tech lies in the breed of people who formed the policies in 50s/60s and not related to current breed politicians. .


I agree, In Nehru's period, lots of universities, colleges were created. That doesnt mean colleages were not created in other politicians period. Do you know, before 91' there were only 30 Engineering colleges (poor guy I am.. Had to fight toomany people to get a seat ) were in Tamilnadu and today it is somewhere around 150? AFAIK, most people working in IT industry were from Engineering colleges. Yea.. current politicians are all stupid... that's why they can formulate a stradegy to improve the GDP from 4% to 6% and aiming for 8% now.


Regarding social system,BJP govt is busy in selling public sector units at fraction of the cost to private companies.


LOL.. Now I can understand why you are very MAD at BJP. Do you agree the privitisation or NOT? And if you say fraction, can you care to provide proof? Do you know, economists are happy with the speed the BJP handles the reforms?
It seems you assume you know toomuch. You are putting your leg in toomany places. Let us handle it one by one. Pick any one of the topic and start. I am waiting..
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
initially posted by Sankar
{
True, extremists can not take contract of patriotism. But you cant call the patriotic person an extremist
}
correct,Wearing saffron clothes and destroying religious places,torturing minority women/children is NOT patriotism.Also patriotism and religion are different things altogether
{
ha ha ha.. True, Scandals was introduced to India only when BJP came to power. Before that people were very honest and no corruption at all. And all the non-BJP state government still very pure, untouched by the evil BJP's corruption mentality
}
critisizing saffron bandwagon does not mean other parties are honest.
{
pseudo seculars.. Care to quote are give me the link which tells me the lessions and text you find it saffron color? Dont show me stupid links from our newspaper's news on protest and all other crap. Just so me the exact texts not one or two para.
}
Show me the exact comaplaints by the people who are saying they are converted into other religion by force.Don't give me the stupid links by VHP sponsored magazines.Give me the exact lists of those people
{
Dont you think you can say the same thing to all our politicians? Tell me one politician who is really trying to solve the religious problem?
}
One whoso ever is in power and ruling must be willing to listen to other's criticism.Currently BJP is in power and Atal is the leader and riots,Gujarat massacre has happened in his tenure.Not only that, BJP ministers have given clear orders to many police officers, not to lodge the complaints given by minority,which was a clear violation of constitution.
Criticising BJP/Govt does not make me antinational/anti religion
{
Do you know, economists are happy with the speed the BJP handles the reforms?
}
Please give the exact list of those economists,after which I will give the details you want.
 
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1936
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What is going on in here? About 100 or so posts missing!!? Is any one doing a self-destructive mode or is that our sheriffs doing their job?
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by <rahul rege>:
critisizing saffron bandwagon does not mean other parties are honest.


Dont change your words.. Just to refresh your memory, here is what you said about BJP


Bcos in BJP's tenure only :roll: country has seen array of scandals/scams from coffin to Banks.



Show me the exact comaplaints by the people who are saying they are converted into other religion by force.Don't give me the stupid links by VHP sponsored magazines.Give me the exact lists of those people


This brought back my childhood memories.. I can not show you the links about the comaplaints by the people who are saying they are converted into other religion by force (except in "VHP sponsored magazines"). Our media ignores it because they are afraid of being branded as "VHP sponsored magazines". So, you win happy?


{
Dont you think you can say the same thing to all our politicians? Tell me one politician who is really trying to solve the religious problem?
}
One whoso ever is in power and ruling must be willing to listen to other's criticism.Currently BJP is in power and Atal is the leader and riots,Gujarat massacre has happened in his tenure.Not only that, BJP ministers have given clear orders to many police officers, not to lodge the complaints given by minority,which was a clear violation of constitution.


He was not supporting Gujarat riots. But at the same time, he has the rights to criticize anyone (I assume he must be critising muslim extremist). Doesnt congress leaders criticize hindu extremist when there is riot? (when they were/are in power?)


Criticising BJP/Govt does not make me antinational/anti religion


I think nobody said you are antinational/anti religion.


{
Do you know, economists are happy with the speed the BJP handles the reforms?
}
Please give the exact list of those economists,after which I will give the details you want. [/QB]



I would love to. But why I first??? That was a reply for your post..
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 59
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I�d like to thank some of you for your comments, and for your links. Here�s what I learned through discussion and reading.
In India), forced conversion is conversion from one religion to another either by use of force or by allurement or by any fraudulent means. That�s what Indian law says (translated and paraphrased - I hope that this does not become a bone of contention).
An Indian referring to �forced conversion� is referring to an Indian law. A Westerner (like myself) should not look at the phrase and break it down to what we think it means � when in Rome, etc.. So if an Indian says �I do not like forced conversion�, that�s like saying �I do not like people breaking law X�. Whatever your country, Martha Stewart maxim applies - that�s a GOOD thing. Since we�re talking about your laws, we should refer to them, not our interpretations of them. And since I�m not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), I�ll let them decide the law and how it�s implemented.
The reasons for this law (and what will get you convicted for it) are a little bit more complex. Pro- �It stops our cultural decay�; con � �There are so many Hindus, they (Christians/Muslims) won�t make a difference�. In this forum, we (Westerners) can take one side or another, or neither, - I believe that is our right. It�s when arguments about whether �the poor can/can�t decide for themselves� arise that we feel that, as a members of a democracy with more �experience� than yours, we can offer advice. And that�s where hackles are raised and shields go up. Remember, this advice can be taken in the spirit of friendship or it can be cast aside. If you cast it aside, then further advice or help on other topics may not be forthcoming � that is a risk you take. Whatever advice we can offer, it will in all likelihood not change the law one bit, nor will it change the outcome of a single case. This forum is not used as a legal backing in any Indian state.
I can see both sides of the story; how an evangelical Christian missionary converting a Hindu man and his family, and offering him a job once he does convert, will anger other Hindus (and would probably get him convicted on a forced conversion charge); how a Catholic priest converting a Hindu man through his example of daily living is not a forced conversion. I can also see how the law can stop preferential treatment; a poor man enjoying the favours of a Christian organization denied to the others in the community because they did not convert. As I�ve said before � I�m not a lawyer, and I�d rather not see these examples used as proof of one side�s arguments. If anyone wants to debate Indian law with me, fine, but you�re fighting against an unarmed opponent.
As many of you have said � we can not understand India�s problems unless we live there. I agree with this! Since some of you do live there, do not just dismiss us as un-teachable � try and write out what you�d like us to understand (thank you for those that did try - I read some great stuff here). I think of enlightenment and understanding as a path, not a state of mind. If you don�t want to enlighten us, then please do not tell us that you are enlightened and we are not. At the end of the day, we may still be on our own path, but now we both know of the existence of the other path.
This is a discussion, a form of communication. If there is a lack of communication, for whatever reason, then it ceases to be a discussion. This Westerner would like to thank you all for enlightening me. Let me leave you with some wisdom of my own -
- Politeness wins over sarcasm, any day.
- Answering direct questions helps the process of communication.
- Know your audience � jokes don�t always work.
- Not everyone likes Star Trek.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mark,
Thanks for nice summary !
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Are you guys going to charge your client/company for all the time you spent here ?
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Milan:
as a members of a democracy with more �experience� than yours, we can offer advice


"holier than you" attitude. I will come back to you later.
Nice post though.
 
Mark Milan
Ranch Hand
Posts: 59
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

"holier than you" attitude. I will come back to you later.
Nice post though.


Sankar:
Please note that "experience" was in quotes. By that, I meant and mean that although we have been a democracy longer than you (my country has about 80 years on yours), that does not mean that we are better than you. In fact, you have many more years of history than we do, which some have pointed out as both a blessing and a curse.
I can see how it can be interpreted as a holier than thou attitude. Indeed, some may think that. I don't.
This is, after all, a discussion about the clash of civilizations.
 
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
For your pleasure, here is a well balanced (atleast IMO) article on forced conversion law..
http://www.samachar.com/features/171002-features.html


The article was rather interesting. There were no actual examples of forced conversion in the article, however.
There are some odd things in Indian law:
"No person shall convert or attempt to convert either directly or otherwise, any person from one religion to another either by use of force or by allurement or by any fraudulent means." "Allurement" is an interesting choice of words. "Join my religion and you will go to heaven," could be considered an allurement.
"Subject to public order, morality and health and to other Provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion." Subject to public order, morality, and health scares me. "Morality" especially could be used as an excuse to shut down any religion you don't like.
 
Mark Milan
Ranch Hand
Posts: 59
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

There are some odd things in Indian law:


Yes. But... be careful of translations of words like "allurement". Neither of us is a lawyer, and neither of us translated the original Indian law. Furthermore, the intent of the law and its application are two different things. Perhaps India has a system of checks and balances, so that the intent of the law is carried out and it is not misused in the manner in which you suggest.
And remember, there are some odd things in American Law according to some Indians. Examples have been given, namely regarding the effects of free speech on a society. Different is not better.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Yes. But... be careful of translations of words like "allurement". Neither of us is a lawyer, and neither of us translated the original Indian law. Furthermore, the intent of the law and its application are two different things. Perhaps India has a system of checks and balances, so that the intent of the law is carried out and it is not misused in the manner in which you suggest.


If you have the time, here are a couple of links to look at regarding anti-conversion laws. Interestingly enough conversion to Hinduism is not considered conversion, rather it is considered "homecoming". Because of this cases of Hindu conversion are not subject to anti-conversion laws.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/11akd.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/08tn.htm
http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-3/re-convert-hinduism-india.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/112/41.0.html
http://www.persecution.org/humanrights/india.html
 
Mark Milan
Ranch Hand
Posts: 59
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

If you have the time, here are a couple of links to look at regarding anti-conversion laws. Interestingly enough conversion to Hinduism is not considered conversion, rather it is considered "homecoming". Because of this cases of Hindu conversion are not subject to anti-conversion laws.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/11akd.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/08tn.htm
http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-3/re-convert-hinduism-india.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/112/41.0.html
http://www.persecution.org/humanrights/india.html


Thanks - some of these stories have been linked here before, so there was no real new material there. It does make for some interesting reading, especially if you want to be brought up to date.
You did bring up a point which I had forgotten, namely that a conversion to Hinduism is considered a "homecoming" (this is from a quote from the VHP). This implies to me that the conversion laws, as they are being enforced in some cases, are not being enforced fairly, and I say that laws MUST be enforced equally. I challenge anyone to defend this VHP quote. Much as I try, it just doesn't make sense to me right now.
If you want to compare the US and India; in America, the VHP and RSS would come off as right wing, religious, wholesome, nationalistic, grassroots parties. In America, parties like these have their supporters. In America, parties like these are not in power.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1865
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have only read a few posts in this thread and I have not read any of the links. Even so, please allow me to blurt out an opinion. The United States is a nation of immigrants and all of the major religions in our country originated some place else. It is entirely proper for the United States to enforce the first amendment here in America, but we should not feel compelled to suggest that the India people should not have the prerogative to promote a continuation of their culture. India is the birthplace of Hinduism and it has been a major part of their culture for thousands of years. In a land of diversity where the citizens speak hundreds of different languages the Indian people might feel that Hinduism is one of the few things that creates a common bond between them. Who are we to say that the Indian people should not share that bond?
Having said the above, I would oppose any sort of oppression by one group over another such as the situation that occurred in Kosovo. However, I am not convinced that it is wrong for a nation to promote a continuation of its own culture. For example, the French government strictly enforces the purity of the French language. Here in the United States, our constitution guarantees freedom of speech. Should we therefore pass judgment on the people of France for not allowing the use of English words in their speech?
I believe that we should respect the choices made by democratically elected governments as long as that government does not promote a brutal tyranny of the majority over the minorities. Obviously, that general statement can promote endless debate so don't expect me to come back here and respond to every--or even any--challenge.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
{
If you want to compare the US and India; in America, the VHP and RSS would come off as right wing, religious, wholesome, nationalistic, grassroots parties.
}
This is true in a certain sense.
The BJP is more like the Republican party in the US, which has a large number of rightwing Christian supporters.
The BJP is considered a Hindu party:but they have a Defence minister( who is responsible for Indian Defence), who is Christian.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
Should we therefore pass judgment on the people of France for not allowing the use of English words in their speech?

I think you are a bit confused, Dan. The French do not prohibit the use of English langugae words in everday speech. Foreign words are banned from commercial speech. Even in the US, we have stricter laws on the freedom of commercial speech.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dan made a point I was going to but was too lazy.
Some religions are nation-forming. Judaism is one example and to speak about what I know better, there is certain religion diversity in Russia, but for last 1000 years Orthodox variant of Christianity was a predominant religion. Now it is everywhere - history, culture in all its form, literature, music, customs, language at last. As hard as Communists tried to free the culture from religion - you cannot eliminate something that is so deeply connected with a nation life. They read Tolstoy and Dostoevsky in high school, and what will you understand about both if you do not know what their religious believes are?
Some years ago I put my nose in both Catholics and mormon missions in my city -- all was very, very nice, but it is a foreign thing. Not that I am against conversions to any other religion, but... Let's put it this way: with some determination I probably could make a sex-change surgery and become a "man". Questions:
1) what kind of man would I become
2) if I was born as a woman, isn't this my mission and shouldn't I proceed accordingly?
Confining myself in "sex" limits doesn't preclude growth and development, it just gives some structure or path to such a development. If I somehow surpassed sex limits, then I would perhaps consider a sex-change surgery to update myself, and we know that there is a minority of population for whom this is necessary, but this is just that - minority.
Isn't converting from one religion into another like changing sex back and forth?
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
I can't beleive you just said that. Now I need to calm down with this tiny ad:
Building a Better World in your Backyard by Paul Wheaton and Shawn Klassen-Koop
https://coderanch.com/wiki/718759/books/Building-World-Backyard-Paul-Wheaton
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic