no war

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by <Jos Horsmeier>:
So censorship is what this is all about? tsk, tsk, shame on you inhabitants of this home of the brave, land of the free ...

:roll: This has nothing to do with censorship. You were warned that attacks such as you made would not be tolerated. The owner of JavaRanch wishes to maintain a friendly atmosphere, and insulting attacks against an entire population certainly don't help in that regard. You can post anything you like as long as you stay within the guidelines.
[ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Anonymous]

[deleted by Jim]
[ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Jim Yingst]

Ahem.
When we say that unfriendly posts are not allowed, that means on either side. If just one or two posters are the problem, we can delete them. When the problem spreads to enough other people as well, it becomes much easier for us to simply close the thread, or even delete it. Please bear that in mind.

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by <Jos Horsmeier>:
(JM: I'll continue this protest posting as long as you'll exhibit yourself as the dictator you're exhibiting yourself)

Just for record: by this time there are two cases when posts were deleted from MD by our sheriffs, not Jason. This will probably not change Jos' opinion, but I do not want everybody else get an impression that Jason practices heavy censorships here, because such a view, as self-evident as it might be, would be a distortion of truth.

[Ram Raju]

By NOAM CHOMSKY, longtime political activist, writer and professor of linguistics at MIT.

"The bin Laden network, I doubt if anybody knows it better than the CIA, since they were instrumental in helping construct it. This is a network whose development started in 1979, if you can believe President Carter’s National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski. He claimed, that in mid–1979 he had instigated secret support for Mujahedin fighting against the government of Afghanistan in an effort to draw the Russians into what he called an “Afghan trap,” a phrase worth remembering. He’s very proud of the fact that they did fall into the Afghan trap by sending military forces to support the government six months later, with consequences that we know. The U.S., along with Egypt, Pakistan, French intelligence, Saudi Arabian funding, and Israeli involvement, assembled a major army, a huge mercenary army, maybe 100,000 or more, and they drew from the most militant sectors they could find, which happened to be radical Islamists."
"Many of the harsh, brutal, oppressive regimes are backed by the U.S. That was true of Saddam Hussein, right through the period of his worst atrocities, including the gassing of the Kurds. U.S. and British support for the monster continued. "
**Just in case you didnt know, Only six months after the slaughter at Halabja (5000 Dead), the White House lent Saddam Hussein another billion dollars. And in 1991, at the end of the Gulf war, US troops stood idly by while Saddam's presidential guard ruthlessly suppressed the popular uprising by the Kurds for which the American president had himself called.
"Madeleine Albright’s infamous statement about how maybe half a million children have died, and it’s a high price but we’re willing to pay it, doesn’t sound too good among people who think that maybe it matters if a half a million children are killed by the U.S. and Britain."
**Somebody needs to look at their foriegn policy.

[Ram Raju]

Just for a change guys.

[Anonymous]

For those in favour of a war -- I realize that a couple of hundred thousands of human beings are not siginificant to you; but think of, say, Baghdad, the monuments of the roots of western civilization. I know that Americans build their houses out of 6x4s and a bit of fake walls (one tornado touchdown season easily gets rid of them), or even worse, trailer camps, but these ancient monuments deserve to exist, no matter what dictator of any kind happens to be an inhabitant of such fundamental monument.
Do you Americans would like to have a stamp on your forehead reading 'I'm part of the armageddon of the roots of western civilization'?
Seems like it ... and forget about those 5e5 human beings, you're used to mass destruction anyway.
Jos Horsmeier

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

:roll: This has nothing to do with censorship. You were warned that attacks such as you made would not be tolerated. The owner of JavaRanch wishes to maintain a friendly atmosphere, and insulting attacks against an entire population certainly don't help in that regard. You can post anything you like as long as you stay within the guidelines.

'attacks' ... 'friendly atmosphere' ... 'insulting attacks against an entire population' ...
and last but not least -- 'the owner wishes ...' and 'guidelines'. IMO those are hierachy obedient cowardesque delegations of personal responsibilities.
l'histoire se repete. does that ring a bell to you?
Jos Horsmeier

[Thomas Paul]

Actually Iraqis are much more important to me that they are to you, apparently, because I truly care that they be rid of a violent, sadistic, murderous dictator.
We can all hope that hundreds of thousands do not die and that the actual casualties on both side are light.

[Paul Stevens]

Unregistered posters should not speak of cowards.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
This has nothing to do with censorship.

Nay-saying doesn't prove your point (if you have any). You (or one of your compadres) *did* remove my message according to some self imposed rule, so by definition this is censorship.
As an excercise: do/did/will you ever remove one of your own or compadres' messages?
Jos Horsmeier

[Thomas Paul]

Jim has deleted my posts from time to time. Jason deleted one of < American Eagle>'s posts. We are attempting to keep this somewhat civil so whenever anyone goes over the line their post will be deleted. And, yes, it is censorship but the owner of the printing press always gets to decide what letters to the editor to print.

[Cindy Glass]

Jos,
You haven't done your homework. It doesn't take much looking around in MD to see that many Bartenders and Sheriffs have had their messages edited by other Sheriffs and the Moderator.
Of course, as a rule we then go to the MO forum and very specifically detail our objections and why we did the editing. Nothing like being chewed out in semi-public to curb a persons posting style .

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Jason deleted one of < American Eagle>'s posts.

Actually, just for the record, I haven't deleted any of < American Eagle>'s posts, nor even edited them. I think the only post I have deleted was one of Jos', after warning him once.

[Jason Menard]

Actually Jos, like Thomas, I am very much concerned for the well-being of the Iraqi people, which is why I am in favor of removing Hussein's murderous regime from power. This is apparently in juxtaposition to those people who are content to continue to let the majority of that country suffer unspeakable acts under his regime, like yourself apparently. I also have a tad bit of a problem with the regime's support of terrorism that has killed many people, including Americans. Burying one's head in the sand and hoping the problem goes away if it is ignored or appeased is nothing short of suicidal idiocy and not something responsible people should do.
What I can't figure out though is why you are still here. You ran off in a huff a couple of weeks ago, asking us to remove your account, and promising not to come back. What happened? Are you just looking for a group of Americans to take out your rage, frustration, and powerlessness on?
I have an idea which you might find more satisfactory. Go down to the US Embassy and wait for a couple of the Marine security guards to get off duty, then get up in their face and tell them what you really think of us. I'm sure you'll find the experience much more rewarding than attacking a bunch of faceless people on the Internet.

[Mapraputa Is]

Jos: As an excercise: do/did/will you ever remove one of your own or compadres' messages?
Jim once removed my message which he found to be offensive.
Jos, just look how many anti-war (or anti-something) posts are there. Some of them (like some of mine ) even can contain mild insults. Nobody deletes them, but if a post has *nothing* besides insults... Why should it stay?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by <Jos Horsmeier>:
As an excercise: do/did/will you ever remove one of your own or compadres' messages?

Many of my replies to you have been censored, if that makes you feel any better. This is not a free-for-all event where people can show up just to vent their hatred towards people. If you can conduct yourself civilly there will be no problems. If you disagree on a topic of debate that's fine, but preferably you can find an articulate manner in which to express your disagreement through civil, adult conversation.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Actually Jos, like Thomas, I am very much concerned for the well-being of the Iraqi people, which is why I am in favor of removing Hussein's murderous regime from power. This is apparently in juxtaposition to those people who are content to continue to let the majority of that country suffer unspeakable acts under his regime, like yourself apparently.

I consider this as a very personal insult (as you frequently happen to utter) and I demand a sincere apology for this. The mere insinuation 'that I would like the majority of that country suffer under that regime' makes me puke. I know that your train of thoughts happens to be totally unilateral considering this matter, but you've gone too far here sir.
Jos Horsmeier

[Jim Yingst]

Jason's pretty new to this job, and so it's not surprising if he hasn't deleted much himself yet, moderators or otherwise.
[Jos H]: and last but not least -- 'the owner wishes ...' and 'guidelines'. IMO those are hierachy obedient cowardesque delegations of personal responsibilities.
OK if you prefer - the owner wishes, and I personally agree. Other moderators at least agree for the most part, enough that they are willing to follow the guidelines in their roles as moderators here.
Is the idea of being polite (not calling your opponents "mentally retarded" for example) really so foreign to you that you assume we only try to enforce it out of blind obedience to a leader? :roll: Certainly we may have some difference in perception of what constitutes "polite", but do you really think your past posts had any chance of actually convincing people to consider alternate views, rather than simply pissing them off?
Take, say, Shay Aluko's posts. He (I assume it's "he") seems to disagree pretty substantially with Jason, Thomas, and others, yet he manages to present his ideas civilly enough that (to my knowledge at least) we haven't seen any need to censor him. (Shay, is that right?) Others here have had stuff edited or deleted in the past (particularly in the months after 9/11 when there were a lot of ugly exchanges in this forum, and we were trying to adapt our policies to better promote the friendly exchange of ideas without letting the place become one big flame war). Take Herb Slocomb and Younes Essouabni as two examples with extremely different views - both have certainly been edited in the past, and I'm sure they have strong feelings against some of the things they see posted here by others - but they manage to post nowadays without censorship for the most part (again, as far as I know) as they've adapted to the styles of discourse we allow.
[Map]: if a post has *nothing* besides insults... Why should it stay?
Or even if there's significant non-insult content - if the insults are strong or prevalent enough, and/or the offender has been warned about it... note for example that we didn't actually delete &ly;finally>'s post, but gave a warning. When Jos posted immediately afterwards with the same sort of insults, it got deleted. This shouldn't have come as any surprise really.
[Paul S]: Unregistered posters should not speak of cowards.
Well to be fair, Jos does seem to be providing his real name here, unlike some others. The reason he's unregistered is that he asked for his personal information to be deleted from this site, which we tried to comply with as much as reasonably possible. E.g. where other people quoted his public posts, it doesn't really seem appropriate to edit everyone else's posts because Jos changed his mind. Anyway for whatever reason Jos is now giving his name again; no need to give him crap about it.
[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I have an idea which you might find more satisfactory. Go down to the US Embassy and wait for a couple of the Marine security guards to get off duty, then get up in their face and tell them what you really think of us. I'm sure you'll find the experience much more rewarding than attacking a bunch of faceless people on the Internet.

And what might this filthy insinuation mean again? FYI American security folks in the Hague (where the Dutch/American embassy resides) refuse to show themselves in public; they are transported in armored cars to and from their holes under the ground; no way to get in contact with them; as always.
[Edited by moderator]
Jos Horsmeier
[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jim Yingst]

[Jos]: I consider this as a very personal insult
Oh, please. You just got done saying "I realize that a couple of hundred thousands of human beings are not siginificant to you". We let that slide, trying to be more open to other opinions here - but how can we take your objection to Jason's comment seriously under these circumstances?

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Actually Iraqis are much more important to me that they are to you, apparently, because I truly care that they be rid of a violent, sadistic, murderous dictator.

If it was said by Bush's mouth, I would say that it sounds hypocrit. How can we say that we are saving some people while they are praying you not to come. How can we say that we matter for a people while we sustained his vile dictator for decades. How can we invoke a just war while only our comfort matters?

[Thomas Paul]

Just because you have done bad things in the past doesn't mean you have to keep doing bad things. Even if we had made Sadaam "Queen for a Day" that doesn't mean we can't wake up and clean him out.
Many Iraqis are asking us to go in and get rid of him. Many, no doubt, are afraid of what will happen when the war starts.

[Thomas Paul]

By the way, I noticed that 15 Iraqis surrendered today and the war hasn't even started.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
By the way, I noticed that 15 Iraqis surrendered today and the war hasn't even started.

Widespread desertions from Iraqi army

[Thomas Paul]

I love this:
In the mainly Shia Muslim south, Kuwaiti border guards are having to turn Iraqi soldiers back, telling them that they must wait until the attack begins before they can surrender.

[Axel Janssen]

5 people discussing in german tv.
what drives me in pro-war is exactly that all 5 are so phreaky sure that they are so more intelligent.
Guess that watching Fox I would be anti-war.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Guess that watching Fox I would be anti-war.

I don't know if they do it on purpose or not, but often when there is somebody being interviewd on Fox who represents one of the anti-war/protest organizations, they come off looking like nut cases. Now that could be because Fox specifically looks for those people, or that the ones representing these organizations that I've seen interviewed really were nut cases.
One of their most interesting techniques that Fox uses is an apparent organizational decision to only use the term "homicide bomber" as opposed to "suicide bomber". I do like watching O'Reilly though, as he's entertaining if nothing else (as well as being a serious investigative reporter). Some of his crusades against some in the music industry make me cringe though.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[Jos]: I consider this as a very personal insult
Oh, please. You just got done saying "I realize that a couple of hundred thousands of human beings are not siginificant to you". We let that slide, trying to be more open to other opinions here - but how can we take your objection to Jason's comment seriously under these circumstances?

Now read this, because I'm only going to write this once: I don't sympathise with Saddam Hussein one singe bit; he deserves to disappear from this globe; the contrary was insinuated and I consider that a personal insult and I demand an apology for this filthy insinuation right now. comprendo?
'70% of casualties is acceptible ...'; this makes me puke ...
Second, I don't sympathise with a non ratified declaration of war either one bit; and most Europeans don't sympathise and acknowledge this retarded cowboy induced war. [edited by moderator]
I am angry. You're setting civilization back for more than half a century; you're about to destroy the multi-millenium-old roots of all western civilizations. [edited by moderator]
Jim. I can say 'please' too; please realize what's about going to happen within a couple of hours -- half a million people are going to get killed; and after, the Americans are leaving behind one of the oldest countries in the world in total devastation; even more, you (and neither do I) know what that idiot Saddam has under his slieves, because the inspectors weren't allowed to finish their jobs. Do 'you' (the American folks) want to take responsibility for any hidden WMDs or chemical stuff or other mass destruction stuff? Do you want to be responsible for Turkey invading the Kurds' (almost) souvereign area?
Haven't you all learned from Vietnam or, lately, Afghanistan? You've left that country in total turmoil despite your promises. [edited by moderator]
[edited by moderator]
Tell your what? It isn't and never will be the way you all behave and believe the way you're behaving now.
Jos A. Horsmeier
ps. and censor this again; that's the behaviour I've come to expect from you type of people.
[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[R K Singh]

If in any way this war is related to terrorism

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I love this:
In the mainly Shia Muslim south, Kuwaiti border guards are having to turn Iraqi soldiers back, telling them that they must wait until the attack begins before they can surrender.

So you think this is prime time fun don't you?
[edited by moderator]
You're ridiculing war here. think. please think.
Jos A. Horsmeier
[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by <Jos Horsmeier>:
[QB]
....

You puke a lot...
Please dont genralise your sentence....
And mind your language
[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Axel Janssen]

Ravish, what are you doing. Its 4.30 a.m. .
http://www.zeitzonen.de/indien.html

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
5 people discussing in german tv.
what drives me in pro-war is exactly that all 5 are so phreaky sure that they are so more intelligent.
Guess that watching Fox I would be anti-war.

I don't condone pacifism at all, but I consider German people being 'pro-war' as extremely dangerous; that's a proven fact. No discussion possible.
Jos A. Horsmeier

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
You puke a lot...

Are you having fun tonight? Sleep well ...
Jos A. Horsmeier

[Axel Janssen]

when driving home in the evening: What will those people in Baghdad have felt in their evening. Last daylight in their city before the destruction starts.
What do I know about air attacks? My father, born 42, been in bunker clapped in his hand and laughed during massive air attacks on military harbour Wilhelmshaven. They told me.
Maybe the huge chestnuttree outside in court yard were yet there when 80% of the houses of this city were destroyed. The houses of street I live is one of the very few constructed before war.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by <Jos Horsmeier>:

German people being 'pro-war' as extremely dangerous

Germans who accept dictatorship, too.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Many Iraqis are asking us to go in and get rid of him.

So, if many of us (European folks) would ask you to stay out and mind your own bizniz? then what?
Jos A. Horsmeier

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Germans who accept dictatorship, too.

I consider that an equivalence relation.
Jos A. Horsmeier

[Axel Janssen]

come on, Jos, Saddam Hussein is a dictator. Don't have figures, but Tony Blair said yesterday, that Saddam kills more people a year than those who will probably die during attack.
Maybe I say this, because authoritarian germans believe anything coming out of mouth of "important people".
Axel Janssen
[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]