SCEA and PMP

[Jason Flannick]

I am working for one BPM product company, as a project manager [PMP certified]. I am having around 8 years of exp. Most of it is in BPM. Actually, I wish to improve my marketability, my career is kind of stagnant therefore thinking to do SCEA, my confusion is will SCEA be helpful for my career growth, I don’t know how the future recruiters will look at my PMP certification & SCEA certification together. Will it be negative or positive, that’s why folks need some suggestions / views.
From technical perspective I have Master’s in Computer science & SCJP

[Hong Anderson]

Hmm, I think it is very simple to get the answer, do you want to be a software architect?
Do you want to create software architecture and design?

If the answers are yes, go for SCEA, if otherwise, I would be confused why you interest in SCEA.

[Jason Flannick]

Thanks for your reply. I don’t mind to do architectural work on software. Well why I am thinking for SCEA,
1. To be a good PM in IT projects its better to have technical knowledge too, that’s the way one can gain trust from team members, understand the impact of customer change request, requirement etc.
2. I have worked [SA, design & development] on java project almost for 5 years, that’s why want to get endorsed my knowhow.
3. To increase my market reach.
I wonder if any other SCEA is also working as PM or they are or going for PMP certification? thats the reason I have started this thread, to know what other SCEA wana do after SCEA ?

[Amit Ghorpade]

"Jason Jason " welcome to Javaranch
please check your private messages for an important administrative matter. You can check them by clicking the My Private Messages link above.

[Hong Anderson]

Jason Jason wrote:Thanks for your reply. I don’t mind to do architectural work on software. Well why I am thinking for SCEA,
1. To be a good PM in IT projects its better to have technical knowledge too, that’s the way one can gain trust from team members, understand the impact of customer change request, requirement etc.
2. I have worked [SA, design & development] on java project almost for 5 years, that’s why want to get endorsed my knowhow.
3. To increase my market reach.
I wonder if any other SCEA is also working as PM or they are or going for PMP certification? thats the reason I have started this thread, to know what other SCEA wana do after SCEA ?

You should "want" to do architectural work not just "don't mind". I think you do project management because you want to do, don't you?
1. I admire your attitude, PM should have strong technical knowledge. But technical knowledge is not equals competency of software architects. You don't need to know design principles in thoroughly detail because that is the job of software architects/technical leaders.
2,3 It depends on your goal.

Will reply more later.

[E. Tse]

Jason Jason wrote:Thanks for your reply. I don’t mind to do architectural work on software. Well why I am thinking for SCEA,
1. To be a good PM in IT projects its better to have technical knowledge too, that’s the way one can gain trust from team members, understand the impact of customer change request, requirement etc.
2. I have worked [SA, design & development] on java project almost for 5 years, that’s why want to get endorsed my knowhow.
3. To increase my market reach.
I wonder if any other SCEA is also working as PM or they are or going for PMP certification? thats the reason I have started this thread, to know what other SCEA wana do after SCEA ?

Hi Jason,

I am also working on SCEA and PMP together right now. You should know from the PMP course that PMP is a kind of management skills/processes that helps you run a project smoothly. It is not only limited to IT projects. Non-technical guy can also be a PM, right ? Working on a IT project, the technical guy (solution architect) will lead the project team to deliver your planned deliverables.

That's the point what do you want, you want to lead the technical team / the managing the whole project with the triple constraints ? If you want to be a technical guy, you would be probably go for the SCEA.

Haha.... for me, I am a technical guy who leads a small team on java development, but not yet be a project manager, so that's why i go for both together.....

cheers,
etse.

[Jason Flannick]

E. Tse wrote:

Jason Jason wrote:
Hi Jason,

I am also working on SCEA and PMP together right now. You should know from the PMP course that PMP is a kind of management skills/processes that helps you run a project smoothly. It is not only limited to IT projects. Non-technical guy can also be a PM, right ? Working on a IT project, the technical guy (solution architect) will lead the project team to deliver your planned deliverables.

That's the point what do you want, you want to lead the technical team / the managing the whole project with the triple constraints ? If you want to be a technical guy, you would be probably go for the SCEA.

Haha.... for me, I am a technical guy who leads a small team on java development, but not yet be a project manager, so that's why i go for both together.....

cheers,
etse.

Hi etse.

Theoretically I very much agree to you. But, when I look around the way software projects are done, I'll say only very big projects have liberty of architect on role, otherwise, most of the time sr. team members and/or other sr. technical guys from orgz. help us to design the architect and with the help of TL and PM things are delivered.
Therefore as per my understanding, usually PM doesn't have full time architect in his team. Although, its good to have. I remember in some projects when I used to explain some vital tech. issues to my ex-PM I use to feel this --> Today, I'm PM I hope my team members don't feel same for me. .

What is my Goal ? well, I want to be excellent PM. Therefore, I'll like to acquire all those skills necessary, to be this. Since, my whole exp. is in Java, and I expect myself to lead Java projects in future, therefore, I thought for having some more java skills to lead effectively. What are my options ? .. SCJP, SCWCD or SCBCD = hard core programmers and related to particular tier be it presentation or business. I'm only left with one option SCEA, which gives me good knowhow to understand/suggest high level design for a project. Which I think is good to have for a software PM.

Feel free to comment on my views and/or share your views.

Thanks
Jason

[Hong Anderson]

If your goal is to be an excellent PM, I think SCJA is enough. SCEA is not necessary.

You are a PMP, so you already know that HR management is your job. If your company doesn't have competency software architects/technical leaders it's time to recruit more.
You also have to create training/learning plan for team members. But it's not PM's jobs to create software architecture and design.

Either project manager or software architect is a tough role and requires TIME to work, I don't think it's a good idea to do these 2 roles at the same time.
I've seen a guy try to be a PM and technical leader at the same time, and the result is pretty bad, but that doesn't apply to everybody.

[Sharma Ashutosh]

My 2 cents on this. I have around 10 years of IT experience now. Jason asked in terms of marketability. And I will say we need to answer accordingly. I will say it's a great idea to be a SCEA as well as PMP certified. I am an architect with a big company. Even when i belong to technical stream-the boundaries are not very clear and moreover i feel I should not design/architect a system which is impractical from the point of the view of budget, planning and overall cost and team composition.
IMHO-an architect has to be 60-70% architect and rest PM. I have seen people who have got both(SCEA and PMP) and they are an "overall whole package". They are hot cake in the market and companies are ready to pay them. In fact even i plan to do both the certifications.
Gone are those days when you have only one role to play, that might work in the initial days of the career(less than 5 yrs of exp.)but nowadays-you need to have multiple skills to advance when you are having 8-10 years of experience. I haven't witnessed only System Administrator, only DBA or only network administrators in last 3 years. More over i haven't seen people in Java World who can say i only know UI or only Webservices. I worked in Dept of Veteran Affairs -federal Government project at Chicago-there we have 6 architects-Functional Archtects, UI Architect, Business Tier Architect, Middleware architect, Integration Tier Architect, Data Architect. And we had 4 PMs to take care of the various projects. Surprisingly there were only 12 developers(mix of Senior and junior developers) , 4 QA guys, 1 DBA, 1 Sys/Network Admin. All these Architects and PMs never used to agree on one thing. After 6 months-half of these architects and PM were fired and then project went on very smoothly.
In a nutshell-it makes sense to be proficient in one of the areas of you stream(so either have SCEA or PMP) but you should have another competency(if proficiency is SCEA then competency as PMP and vice versa). Best jobs in the market are Development manager, Technical Project manager and generally i feel for those kind of jobs you need to have both the certifications.
I will recommend Jason to do both SCEA and PMP

[Hong Anderson]

I never said that software architects don't need to know project management , and I never said PM shouldn't know technical.

I might be not clear enough, roles of software architect are not just creating software architecture and design, they need to do much more things include some project management (work closely with project manager).

My main reason to not recommend to go for SCEA is it seems to me that Jason doesn't really want or love to do software architecture.
For marketability, I instead recommend SCJA or other entry level technology certifications like MCTS from Microsoft.

But if Jason want to change career to do less PM and do more architecture I'll recommend him to pursue SCEA. Or if Jason want to do both things at the same time (very difficult), SCEA is a good choice.

I assume that we all are aware of PM roles from PMI, but for software architects it's not just about creating software architecture and design, I'm not sure are we all aware of that?

[Jason Flannick]

Hi,

As Kengkaj agrees PM should know technicals, but now questions is what is the level of technical a PM should be aware of, for this lets take little bit of practical look, PM's don't need to be aware of API's, he don't need to write codes, but he is expected to be aware of overall design/working of the system normal PM's can do this....... those PM's who could suggest to TL/participate with architect for good design of the system. Will be excellent PM's. SCEA helps you to acomplish this ....of course primarily PM has to fullfill PM role as of defined by PMI. Therefore, my understanding is .... all the certificaiton below SCEA will be worthless at a PM Level. Feel free to give your views if you don't buy it.

No, I m not intrested in career change, rather then I'll like to do more PM than architect. May be we can put it like this a PM with SCJP, SCJA..... OR PM with SCEA will be better to have from "customer point of view" ?

Thanks
Jason, PMP
SCJP

[Hong Anderson]

Before discuss further about SCEA, I think we should clarify about software architect's role first.

Some of Software Architect's responsibility from RUP are in the following:
- Architectural Analysis
- Assess Viability of Architectural Proof-of-Concept
- Construct Architectural Proof-of-Concept
- Describe Distribution
- Describe the Run-time Architecture
- Existing Asset Analysis
- Prioritize Use Cases
- Define System Context
- Create Analysis Model
- Create Design Model
- Create Deployment Model
- Create Implementation Model
- Create Interface
- Create Protocol
- Modify Requirement Attributes
- Modify Software Requirement
- Create Software Architecture Document
etc.

Regarding skills software architects need to have experience (problem domain, requirements, software engineering, vision), leadership (work closely with project manager), communication (motivate, mentor, etc.), goal-orientation and pro-activity.
Please note that this is only viewpoint of RUP. After look at list of responsibility above (these are just some, there are more things to do), you should know better if you want to take software architect's role.

[Hong Anderson]

Jason Flannick wrote:Hi,

As Kengkaj agrees PM should know technicals, but now questions is what is the level of technical a PM should be aware of, for this lets take little bit of practical look, PM's don't need to be aware of API's, he don't need to write codes, but he is expected to be aware of overall design/working of the system normal PM's can do this....... those PM's who could suggest to TL/participate with architect for good design of the system. Will be excellent PM's. SCEA helps you to acomplish this

PM can suggest about design, actually everybody can suggest including tester, marketing people, etc.
I know your point, it would be great if a PM can suggest good design, but I don't think SCEA would be necessary. You shouldn't know about architecture/analysis & design more than architect/technical leader, if so it's a issue that you need to solve as a project manager of course.

Jason Flannick wrote:
....of course primarily PM has to fullfill PM role as of defined by PMI. Therefore, my understanding is .... all the certificaiton below SCEA will be worthless at a PM Level. Feel free to give your views if you don't buy it.

Hmm, I cannot follow your logic, I think it's good to have entry level technical certification to prove that you have basic technical knowledge, how is it worthless?

Jason Flannick wrote:
No, I m not intrested in career change, rather then I'll like to do more PM than architect. May be we can put it like this a PM with SCJP, SCJA..... OR PM with SCEA will be better to have from "customer point of view" ?

If you will sell yourself as an excellent project manager, I don't think SCEA will help much. But if you will advertise that you're PM + software architect, it would help.
Don't you interest in PMI-SP and PMI-RMP?

[Amritendu De]

Very interesting thread this !

I think the question to ask yourself are "Do I enjoy working as an Architect who knows project management and people management?" or "Do I enjoy working as a Project Manager who manages both people and projects and can understand technical architecture/design?". For the first category you should definitely go with SCEA and there's PMI CAPM for you! For the second category there's PMP but then it is a question whether one who likes to manage projects would ever go into doing architecture. I think it is a rare chance and if someone can pull off both its good.

[Jason Flannick]

Sorry I'm little late in my reply. But hope we all are enjoying this conversation, although its reaching on its climax.

To me, I feel like more to be in 2nd Category, becoz, technical are major part of software project, until unless PM doesn't have good understanding of them, there will be always a uncertainty in his mind, I understand TL will take care of it but still, if PM is not good in technical’s also, my understanding is, PM won't have ultimate control on project [since tech. is major part]. I agree its very difficult for PM to take over as architect and PM role both together, probably on small projects only. I'm NOT saying, PM will design the architect or do UML activities, but still he should understand what are the implication of change in architect design, which architect currently system using, which technology will be better to use to given requirement, just high level understand of the architect, will be good enough. If you also think so, so now question is which JAVA certification gives this knowledge to PM, to my mind probable answer is SCEA, although SCEA gives you very deep understanding which is not required but still other certification SCJP,SCBCD,SCWCD are at api level that's why its NOT necessary for PM to gain them.

As Kengkaj said:
"You shouldn't know about architecture/analysis & design more than architect/technical leader," ... Yes, I agree, PM shouldn't know..... but to monitor & control his TL he should know what he is doing. Basic knowledge of JAVA is really not good enough, my most jr. team member is SCWCD .

I wana thanks to all of you who participated in this thread, atleast we all agree that its good to have tech. for a PM, our difference is on the degree/level at which PM should know technicals. may be just like what we say for money..... more is better. but don't overdo else it will take over you.

Jason, PMP

[Hong Anderson]

Jason Flannick wrote:
I understand TL will take care of it but still, if PM is not good in technical’s also, my understanding is, PM won't have ultimate control on project [since tech. is major part].

PM never have "ultimate control" on project. There are many factors we cannot control, that is the reason why we have to do risk management. PM cannot do and shouldn't do everything on their own, that is the reason we have to acquire project team. Actually, you should know very well because you're a PMP .

Jason Flannick wrote:
I'm NOT saying, PM will design the architect or do UML activities, but still he should understand what are the implication of change in architect design, which architect currently system using, which technology will be better to use to given requirement, just high level understand of the architect, will be good enough.

Understand something, and design something are very different and require different level of knowledge, architects are not supposed to understand architecture, they are supposed to *design* architecture (and do MUCH more things).
Like cellular phones, you can tell which model is better, or which model is suitable for a specific usage, without having knowledge of manufacturing cellular phones.

Everybody should be able to understand architecture of system, that is also a job of software architect.

Jason Flannick wrote:
As Kengkaj said:
"You shouldn't know about architecture/analysis & design more than architect/technical leader," ... Yes, I agree, PM shouldn't know..... but to monitor & control his TL he should know what he is doing. Basic knowledge of JAVA is really not good enough, my most jr. team member is SCWCD .

I agree that PM should know what a team member is doing, but I don't think it is needed to know in detail *how* he is doing. Mentoring/coaching is also a job of software architect/technical leader/senior developer.
PM can develop training plan for improving competencies of team members.

Anyway, if you want to gain knowledge in analysis and design, I recommend to read Analysis & Design Disciplines in RUP, it's a very good resource.

[Sachin Kumar]

SCEA+PMP > you will be considered as an architect who has project management competency as well by customer/recruiters.
If you think after doing SCEA, you can monitor TL/Architect it is not good for project. I think PM should not think himself on top of every thing.
TL/Designer and Architect and PM are three points of triangle and developers are inside triangle.
Understanding and clarity of each others role is critical to success of project.

[pmandavkar pmandavkar]

This is good editor .. but don't have sufficient options ............

[Alex Belisle Turcot]

I think SCEA would be nice..

For me, when I get to be PM, I would still want to be SCEA, even if I don't display all my knowledge ;)

However, I also think the best PMs I've work with/for were the less knowledgeable on the technical aspect. In fact, they were probably somewhat knowledgeable, but never EVER interfered with it.
As far as being a good PM, I think you might be mistaking if you are taking the SCEA route. The PM I worked with having these kind of skills are were not the one I remember being the best. In fact, it seems they ended up going back to technical leading roles rather than management...

IF you would have said, you want to do SCEA because it's seems fun, that would be different. Or even, just because it would look good on your resume.. But I don't think this would make you a better PM.

Think about that...

[pmandavkar pmandavkar]

Very Intresting thread,

For me, when I get to be PM, I would still want to be SCEA, even if I don't display all my knowledge ;)

RUP mention about various roles, as per RUP PM & Architect are different roles altogether. In anycase PM has enough to do. Many organizations have Technical Manager role here PM&SCEA will be a good fit. In fact i was dilemma year back whether i should opt for PMP or SCEA and i opted for SCEA since i have arround 9 years of experience and i was not willing to jump into PM to early instead what i opted for RUP which will make me more aware of different vagaries of Software Development
As per me it will put recruiters in more dilemma if they see both PMP & SCEA in ones CV, its better to have SCEA+RUP kind of combo instead for marketibility purpose

[Vamsi Mohan]

There is no comparison between PMP and SCEA. PMP is completely functional and project/program management and the people who did PMP are considered as managers. But once you did or doing SCEA you will be considered as technologist or architect. But one thing sure, PMP and SCEA cannot be ride at a same time.

[George Fung]

Kengkaj Sathianpantarit wrote:If your goal is to be an excellent PM, I think SCJA is enough. SCEA is not necessary.

You are a PMP, so you already know that HR management is your job. If your company doesn't have competency software architects/technical leaders it's time to recruit more.
You also have to create training/learning plan for team members. But it's not PM's jobs to create software architecture and design.

Either project manager or software architect is a tough role and requires TIME to work, I don't think it's a good idea to do these 2 roles at the same time.
I've seen a guy try to be a PM and technical leader at the same time, and the result is pretty bad, but that doesn't apply to everybody.

Only big comapny can afford to recruit a full time architect. So, I think SCEA can help a excellent to judge the human resource and time-frame planning