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Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:I don't understand the controversy. There's a church that runs ads on the trains. How is that any different? I'm hoping someone from a more religious part of the country/world will have some insight into this.
John Smith wrote:Like it or not, the United States was founded on the Judeo-Christian principles and continues to operate as such.
a charity giving, married with two children, heterosexual, law abiding and God fearing Christian
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:I don't understand the controversy. There's a church that runs ads on the trains. How is that any different?
Steve
Martha Simmons wrote:
P.S. The ad at the bottom of this page says "Church of Scientology. The Only Major Religion To Emerge in 20th Century." Do we really want to promote this organisation on JavaRanch?
Steve Luke wrote:
I want to be clear I am not picking on any particular atheist organization or atheists in general, I am just saying they have a PR problem because their message is entirely negative and it is hard to promote it in a positive light without being (at least subtly) offensive.
Steve Luke wrote:I think the 'atheist' religion gets a lot of flack as a side effect for how it has to be presented. You can't advertise or recruit for atheism without negatively advertising against other religions.
Jesper Young wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:I think the 'atheist' religion gets a lot of flack as a side effect for how it has to be presented. You can't advertise or recruit for atheism without negatively advertising against other religions.
Atheism is not a religion.
And atheism is not negative at all. On the contrary, many religions are very negative, they threaten you with hell and eternal damnation if you don't believe. Atheism is freeing your mind from irrationality.
Steve
Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:
I want to be clear I am not picking on any particular atheist organization or atheists in general, I am just saying they have a PR problem because their message is entirely negative and it is hard to promote it in a positive light without being (at least subtly) offensive.
Well, yes and no. In the same way, you could say that ads for Clairol (your grey hair is bad), Tegrin (your dandruff is bad), Jenny Craig (your fat is bad,) Stanley Steemer (your dirty carpets are bad,) University of Phoenix (your lack of education is bad) and many others are all negative too. Why is "your belief system is bad" so different?
Steve
Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:I've got an ad for Calvinism, too!
Joe Ess wrote: I think it's funny that he's co-opted the habits that I find most repulsive in fundamentalists of other varieties, like constantly interjecting how great his belief system is into unrelated conversations.[/img]
There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
John Smith wrote:
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:I don't understand the controversy. There's a church that runs ads on the trains. How is that any different? I'm hoping someone from a more religious part of the country/world will have some insight into this.
Like it or not, the United States was founded on the Judeo-Christian principles and continues to operate as such. The references to these principles are in the Constitution, the legal system, the public health and welfare system, the armed forces, and in the prescribed mentality of what constitutes "a good citizen", which is a charity giving, married with two children, heterosexual, law abiding and God fearing Christian.
Would you feel the same way about an ad for a Christian church, including your own? (I don't know what church you belong to or if they advertise).Gregg Bolinger wrote:As a Christian I'd rather not see ads telling me God doesn't exist.
There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
fred rosenberger wrote:
Would you feel the same way about an ad for a Christian church, including your own? (I don't know what church you belong to or if they advertise).Gregg Bolinger wrote:As a Christian I'd rather not see ads telling me God doesn't exist.
I have no problem with any belief system advertising. I am free to ignore any and all ads I come across. I actually enjoy seeing ads for things I don't believe/support, because I feel they in some way educate me, and help me re-think my position on whatever issue is at hand.
Steve Luke wrote:
Jesper Young wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:I think the 'atheist' religion gets a lot of flack as a side effect for how it has to be presented. You can't advertise or recruit for atheism without negatively advertising against other religions.
Atheism is not a religion.
I think this is a bit of semantics. The fourth definition on Merriam Webster a religion is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." Atheism fits that bill as much as anything else. It is hard to make the 'organized religion' distinction lately as well, with organizations like CoR.
Jesper Young wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:
Jesper Young wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:I think the 'atheist' religion gets a lot of flack as a side effect for how it has to be presented. You can't advertise or recruit for atheism without negatively advertising against other religions.
Atheism is not a religion.
I think this is a bit of semantics. The fourth definition on Merriam Webster a religion is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." Atheism fits that bill as much as anything else. It is hard to make the 'organized religion' distinction lately as well, with organizations like CoR.
I disagree. Atheism isn't held to with faith - atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). Saying that atheism is a religion is like saying that not having a hobby, is a hobby...
The two do not contradict each other. The bar to government-sponsored religion in no way contradicts John's points.Paul Clapham wrote:
John Smith wrote:Like it or not, the United States was founded on the Judeo-Christian principles and continues to operate as such. The references to these principles are in the Constitution, the legal system, the public health and welfare system, the armed forces, and in the prescribed mentality of what constitutes "a good citizen", which is a charity giving, married with two children, heterosexual, law abiding and God fearing Christian. A campaign for atheism is therefore seen not as just another fashionable trend, but as a threat to the core that holds the country together. Thus the controversy.
At least, that's what the people who think there is a controversy would like you to think. There are many others who would point to the part of the constitution which bars government-sponsored religion.
Jesper Young wrote:Campbell: No, religion is not about faith at all. What do atheists have faith in?
Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:I've got an ad for Calvinism, too!
Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:In other words, I don't care if you're a vegan, and I don't want to hear about it,
Gregg Bolinger wrote:For the record, I am a Christian, born again, Bible thumper, Jesus Freak....you name it. I don't shove my beliefs down anyone's throats no more than I want yours shoved down mine. ... That is why I understand the controversy.
Gregg Bolinger wrote:Back on track here....I understand the controversy. As a Christian I'd rather not see ads telling me God doesn't exist. As a Christian I don't believe said ads. And as a US citizen those ads have the right to be there.
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Gregg Bolinger wrote:But faith does not always imply God nor does religion.
Jesper Young wrote:Ok, so you say it depends on what your exact definition of the word "religion" is. I think that when you mention "religion", most people will associate that with faith and believing in whatever god or gods that religion tells you to believe in, and worship. But you are talking about a much more broad and much less literal meaning of the word "religion".
I don't think it's a good idea to call atheism a religion, because that's placing it on the same line as Christianty, Judaism, Islam or any other religion. Saying "atheism is a religion" is just a very small step away from saying "atheism is just another religion, just like Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc.".
Steve
Jesper Young wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:
Jesper Young wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:I think the 'atheist' religion gets a lot of flack as a side effect for how it has to be presented. You can't advertise or recruit for atheism without negatively advertising against other religions.
Atheism is not a religion.
I think this is a bit of semantics. The fourth definition on Merriam Webster a religion is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." Atheism fits that bill as much as anything else. It is hard to make the 'organized religion' distinction lately as well, with organizations like CoR.
I disagree. Atheism isn't held to with faith - atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). It doesn't take faith to be an atheist.
Steve
Steve Luke wrote:Since there isn't any proof then that belief is a matter of faith.
Mike Simmons wrote:I have a lack of belief in pink elephants. You could even say I have a positive belief that there are no pink elephants in the world. I have no proof that they don't exist, other than the utter lack of credible evidence for them worldwide. I guess, since there's no proof, my belief must be a matter of faith.
Steve
Paul Clapham wrote:But I submit that the ad linked to in the original post, which says "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?" isn't in fact promoting atheism at all. That word was just attached by the headline writer
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[OCP 17 book] | [OCP 11 book] | [OCA 8 book] [OCP 8 book] [Practice tests book] [Blog] [JavaRanch FAQ] [How To Ask Questions] [Book Promos]
Other Certs: SCEA Part 1, Part 2 & 3, Core Spring 3, TOGAF part 1 and part 2
Steve Luke wrote:I think it is misleading to say that atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). Atheism, as normally defined, is the belief in the lack of god(s). Notice the subtle difference. If you have no belief for or against, you are an agnostic, as Paul said. But atheism is a positive belief that there is not a god. Since there isn't any proof then that belief is a matter of faith.
John de Michele wrote:On the other hand, the burden of proof is not on atheists to disprove the existence of god/gods/whatever.
John.
Gregg Bolinger wrote:The burden of proof is on no one to prove/disprove the existence. It cannot be proven nor disproven, in my opinion. The burden lies on getting others to believe the same as you (not you as in John). That is, if you care what others believe.
John de Michele wrote:
Gregg Bolinger wrote:The burden of proof is on no one to prove/disprove the existence. It cannot be proven nor disproven, in my opinion. The burden lies on getting others to believe the same as you (not you as in John). That is, if you care what others believe.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then :). That's fine, though. Life would be boring if everyone thought the same :beerchug:
John.
Consider Paul's rocket mass heater. |