JSF criticism

[Sal DiStefano]

Hi

I have read lately that JSF is more trouble then it is worth. Many are saying it is making things harder rather then easier. Is this going to be another EJB? I was hoping to get some information here this week regarding the pros and cons of JSF.

Also, With all these different frameworks out there it is hard to tell what to use where and when. Is JSF just presentation? or does it overlap into what Struts covers?

Thank You

Sal

[Gregg Bolinger]

Do you have any links to what you are reading? I would be interesting in seeing just exactly what is being said.

I think the term "harder" in this case is relative. It reminds me of a recent discussion about Tiger (Java 1.5 (v5)). It boiled down to the fact that some of the new features are more difficult to grasp and add difficulty to the language. However, this leads to better development and the ability to create applications quicker and sometimes with less code.

JSF is similar in that if you are used to pure J2EE development (JSPs and Servlets) or a web framework like Struts, it's going to take some rethinking to get in line with JSF. Same thing goes for Tapestry. So yeah, JSF might be more difficult, right now. But I think JSF, and I have said this before, will be as good as the Tools that come out to support it.

JSF is not just presentation. Although the way it handles navigation and validation is a bit different than that of Struts. In fact, I think navigation and validation are easier in JSF than Struts. JSF is presentation driven I think though and the UI Components are the driving force behind it. There is a project, someone else can give the link because I don't know, that allows JSF to integrate with Struts so that you can keep the meat of your exising struts app but take advantage of JSF's UI Components.

Hope that helps a bit. I am reading JSF In Action as we speak and I am only on Chapter 6.

[Kito Mann]

Sal,

Gregg pretty much said everything I would say .

JSF has received some bad press lately for two reasons: (1) people think it's more complex to use than it really is, and (2) it's new.

Some of the internals of JSF are complicated, but the programming model itself is simpler, in my opinion, then frameworks like Struts. Some people have complaints about particular implementation issues, but I think these will be addressed over time. They seem to forget that it's new, so it's going to have a few rough edges.

One thing you'll find is that most of the detractors still agree that it will be successful. Why? Because it's quite powerful and necessary, and the whole industry is behind it.

[Junilu Lacar]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Do you have any links to what you are reading?

Matt Raible, for one, reports unfavorably about his experience with JSF: http://raibledesigns.com/comments/rd/sunsets/my_jsf_experience

There are many others, too. I googled for "tapestry rocks jsf sucks" and turned up quite a few hits.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Junilu Lacar:


Matt Raible, for one, reports unfavorably about his experience with JSF: http://raibledesigns.com/comments/rd/sunsets/my_jsf_experience

There are many others, too. I googled for "tapestry rocks jsf sucks" and turned up quite a few hits.

There is very little about his complaints that have much to do with the Specification, as he stated as being his main problem. He even listed that MyFaces.org being down was why we should run away from JSF. :roll:

Not to mention that:

Every button or link clicked results in a form post. That's just wrong - why can't I have true links like the web is supposed to? So much for bookmarks. - This is not true. You can use regular html hyperlinks if you want. They just won't be much use to you beyong going to another page or anothe website.

Saving state on the client results in enormously long URLs and/or hidden fields. - So what.

And most of his complaints have more to do with the MyFaces implementation of JSF than anything. JSF is young. Struts wasn't perfect when it came out. Why do you think there was a large amount of changes between 1.0 and 1.1? Plus, I think that JSF is really meant to be Tool driven meaning it was designed to be developed within an IDE using RAD technology. Not much support for that yet. But it's comming.
[ August 31, 2004: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

[Sal DiStefano]

Thanks to all of you for the comments. I am here because I think JSF is worth a look. I was just looking to see if anyone who is using it thought it had promise. Regarding my readings, there were a handful. Here is a link to one which included comments from some who had nothing good to say about it.

http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3322641

Many of the comments I have seen were on various message boards, including SUN's JSP forum, the most critical quoted in the article above were from The Server Side.

I am going to take a look at SUN's Creator, Has anyone here used it? what do you think about it as a first gen tool? I also see MyEclipseIDE has JSF support now. I hope the tool vendors can be quick to help mature the spec.

Regards

Sal
[ August 31, 2004: Message edited by: Sal DiStefano ]

[Alvin chew]

i recently just start learning on struts, which i think is wonderful stuff, but for jsf, i heard it could mix with struts, is there anyone work out with this combination technology?

will jsf going to replace struts soon or there are suppose work together ?

[Sal DiStefano]

You will most likely get a more complete answer from someone else, but I have read that JSF was built to be the Framework which will be included in the J2EE Specification, while struts and others will remain options.

I do understand there is a way to tie your JSF to struts. I think I saw something on Oreilly.com. If I can find the link I'll post it here.

Regards

Sal

[Alvin chew]

thanks Sal DiStefano !!

[Alvin chew]

what is the major different between jsf and struts ?

[Paul Wong]

Saw this article quite some time ago

Integrating Struts, Tiles, and JavaServer Faces

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I am reading JSF In Action as we speak and I am only on Chapter 6.

Hi Gregg,
After then, will you post your review in the Book Review forum? I am eager to see your opinion on the book, while I can get most info about the book here from the author...

Thanks...

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Alvin chew:
what is the major different between jsf and struts ?

I've given the answer to this quesiton in your own thread here... I do recommend you to have a look at that thread again...

Hope it helps...

[Alvin chew]

hi, there, can jsf put swing interface into without putting it into applet for web application ?

[Kito Mann]

Originally posted by Alvin chew:
hi, there, can jsf put swing interface into without putting it into applet for web application ?

Alvin,

JSF is tied to the web, so all JSF applications are web applications. You could, however, render a page via JSF that was displayed by an applet or application. That applet or application could, indeed use Swing.

You would need to have a custom render kit to do this, however, as well as client code that could understand the markup that the render kit created.

[Kito Mann]

Originally posted by Junilu Lacar:


Matt Raible, for one, reports unfavorably about his experience with JSF: http://raibledesigns.com/comments/rd/sunsets/my_jsf_experience

There are many others, too. I googled for "tapestry rocks jsf sucks" and turned up quite a few hits.

It's also fair to point out David Geary's response.

[Kito Mann]

Originally posted by Paul Wong:
Saw this article quite some time ago

Integrating Struts, Tiles, and JavaServer Faces

I just wanted to point at this article is somewhat dated, and that you can use JSF with Tiles without going through all of these hoops. If you use the Struts-Faces integration library, Tiles integration is painless.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Kito Mann:


It's also fair to point out David Geary's response.

[Kito Mann]

Originally posted by Sal DiStefano:

I am going to take a look at SUN's Creator, Has anyone here used it? what do you think about it as a first gen tool? I also see MyEclipseIDE has JSF support now. I hope the tool vendors can be quick to help mature the spec.

Sal,

I like Java Studio Creator a lot -- it's a little rough around the edges, but not bad at all. It's quite limited, though, which is both a good thing and a bad thing. You can use it to build only JSF applications that talk to a database or a web service. (I'm sure you can use it for more complex scenarios, but you won't get tool support for them.)

Check out JSF Central for some reviews on Creator. My book discusses it a lot as well (it also discusses WSAD and JDeveloper).

MyEclipse's JSF support is more a the project level, as opposed to the GUI designer level.