What's next after servlets?

[Greg Bag]

Hey guys I'm kind of confused on what to learn next. As in, what J2EE technology should I be learning next. My main purpose is for marketability and finding jobs.

I know Servlets, JSP, JDBC

Right now I'm learning JSF, but I'm having second thoughts.

Can anyone point out what to learn next and why it will be useful? Sorry for the vague question but It's like an ice-pick stabbing my head.

Spring, Struts, Hibernate...?

Thank you. Also please don't say, depends on what you want to do... or each of them is important.. this that. Thanks

[Abhay Agarwal]

i will say - learn Spring (Core + MVC) and Hibernate. these technology skills are required by many companies.

also you can pursue Oracle certification of Servlets and JSP

~ abhay

[Greg Bag]

If you would rank the next technologies that are job abundant, excluding spring+hibernate, what would they be? I hear a lot of people say spring+hibernate also.

[Bear Bibeault]

Anything else is a very distant 3rd.

[Greg Bag]

Bear I was thinking about reading your book jQuery in action, but had some thoughts. My Javascript isn't too strong. Do I need at least intermediate experience in JS to start tackling your book?

[Bear Bibeault]

If you are weak on the client side, that's definitely a direction you should beef up. I assumed your question was focused on server-side technologies.

You should have at least basic JavaScript knowledge before tackling jQuery. But if you know at least rudimentary JavaScript, there is an Appendix in the book that goes through topics that are very helpful to know.

[Greg Bag]

My question was based on server-side, but when I saw your name, I remember you as an author of the book, so I thought it would be a good moment to strike a question.

[Bear Bibeault]

Understood -- and a fortuitous question based on your initial question. Server-side coders are easy to find. Client-side coders (at least really good ones) are a tad harder to find. Coders who can straddle both the client and server side are rare and in demand.

[Greg Bag]

That is actually pretty correct. I know a couple guys who are good server-side coders but not client-side coders, and vice versa. I probably don't know anyone who is versatile in both. In your opinion, what makes someone a good client coder? Knowing xhtml, css, javascript, jquery, and ajax?

[Bear Bibeault]

Greg Bag wrote: what makes someone a good client coder? Knowing xhtml, css, javascript, jquery, and ajax?

XHTML is yesterday's news. It's dead. HTML5 is where it's at. That doesn't mean that any XHTML knowledge is wasted -- all that well-formedness translates nicely to HTML5.

But yes, understanding the triad of HTML, JavaScript (including Ajax) and CSS and how to use them well together is the key. Anyone can write HTML. Anyone can write CSS. Anyone can write JavaScript. Those that know how to do all three well and in concert is what is rare.

With its popularity, jQuery is also almost a must.

[Greg Bag]

That's a good way to put it. Harmonizing all three languages together is where the tribute is. Bear also, for server-side, there is so many damn frameworks. Do you think that knowing servlet, jsp, spring, and hibernate will give you enough of a base to get a decent paying EE job? What about Struts, Stripes, and all those other frameworks? I'm just confused. At school, they don't teach us shit. So I'm trying to teach myself. I just don't want to learn something that will be a waste or give me a hard time finding jobs. When you were 22, were you confused on what you wanted to do also? haha. Do you think I should continue with JSF?

[Bear Bibeault]

Greg Bag wrote:also, for server-side, there is so many damn frameworks. Do you think that knowing servlet, jsp, spring, and hibernate will give you enough of a base to get a decent paying EE job?

For me, experience with any single framework is usually enough. I'm more interested if someone understands the important concepts than which particular framework they've used.

What about Struts, Stripes, and all those other frameworks?

(All my opinion) Struts is on the wane. Stripes, Grails, and Play are all cool, but really niche players.

When you were 22, were you confused on what you wanted to do also?

When I was 22 I was just starting my first real job: with DEC writing memory diagnostics for the PDP11/44. That was a long long time ago...

Do you think I should continue with JSF?

I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about JSF, which I think is an abomination that needs to be excised from the face of the Earth like a malignant cancer.

[Greg Bag]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Greg Bag wrote:also, for server-side, there is so many damn frameworks. Do you think that knowing servlet, jsp, spring, and hibernate will give you enough of a base to get a decent paying EE job?

For me, experience with any single framework is usually enough. I'm more interested if someone understands the important concepts than which particular framework they've used.

What about Struts, Stripes, and all those other frameworks?

(All my opinion) Struts is on the wane. Stripes, Grails, and Play are all cool, but really niche players.

When you were 22, were you confused on what you wanted to do also?

When I was 22 I was just starting my first real job: with DEC writing memory diagnostics for the PDP11/44. That was a long long time ago...

Do you think I should continue with JSF?

I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about JSF, which I think is an abomination that needs to be excised from the face of the Earth like a malignant cancer.

Haha... about the JSF. Yea I started a real job at this age also. But the company is not a web company. They use straight J2SE, some swing, and literally it's their own proprietary framework. I find it difficult to find a job in web especially if you have no experience. All the J2EE jobs require at least 3 years experience. I also don't find many J2EE internships. All in all, thanks for your help Bear.

[Mark Reyes]

I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about JSF, which I think is an abomination that needs to be excised from the face of the Earth like a malignant cancer.

I couldn't help but roll my eyes with this statement..

I have changed job and is assigned at working right now with a forked version of JSF.. Its not bad to learn something new though.

Though it makes me missed some of the jquery stuff that I have been doing before. I learned much of Jquery due to Bear's book..

I find it difficult to find a job in web especially if you have no experience

You could learn anything on the net right now although I must say a 'real company' working experience is really needed but you could get yourself ready with free stuffs. good luck!

[Bear Bibeault]

Roll your eyes if you like, I am entitled to my informed opinion.

[Mark Reyes]

Hi Bear, point taken. I dont mean no harm on what I have written above. In fact, I have high regards on your honest opinions that i have been following for some time. These are things that you wont read on the technical books that I am reading..

It just so happen, that I am working on JSF right now so I smiled when I saw your comments.

[Greg Bag]

Mark, is there a way to incorporate JSF into servlets and jsp. I want to combine all of them.

For instance....

Usually for my MVC WITHOUT JSF I do...
User clicks register button ----> RegisterUserServlet.java as "GET" -----> RegisterUser.jsp ------> RegisterUserServlet.java as "POST" -----> Update to database....

With what I know of JSF so far, is there a way to do this----->

User clicks register button ----> RegisterUserServlet.java as "GET" -----> RegisterUser.jsp or RegisterUser.xhtml and I use JSF tags/beans here for validation ----> RegisterUserServlet.java as "POST" --->Update to database

In a regular JSP page, I would use <input name='firstname'> to send attributes to the servlet... but in a JSF page, I can't do that.
My question is.... how can I write a form in jsp/xhtml with jsf tags, validate it, and then send the contents of that form to the servlet?

MY OVERALL GOAL WOULD BE: Use the jsp/xhtml for validation with THE JSF then send that validated data to the servlet. I CANNOT DO THIS EASILY WITH THE JSP ALONE.

[Rahul Sudip Bose]

Greg Bag wrote:
I find it difficult to find a job in web especially if you have no experience.

True, the job ads reflect exactly that. To get experience i need a job/internship and to get a job you need experience - well generally. If i dont get a job, then how do i get experience ?
As a fresher, how do i prove myself ? How do i get that crucial break ? (work for free for 1year perhaps ? few people refuse freebies)

Greg Bag wrote:
I also don't find many J2EE internships.

Why do you say so ? Any good sites for only internships like the ones for jobs ?

[Rahul Sudip Bose]

Bear Bibeault wrote:Server-side coders are easy to find. Client-side coders (at least really good ones) are a tad harder to find. Coders who can straddle both the client and server side are rare and in demand.

Sorry to interrupt with a newbie question. Please tell me if :

1-server side is the beans, jsp etc ? Anything else ?
2-client side is basically the UI - like html, css ?

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Bear Bibeault wrote:
Client-side coders (at least really good ones) are a tad harder to find.

Why do you say so ? Is it because it is very difficult ?

[Greg Bag]

True, the job ads reflect exactly that. To get experience i need a job/internship and to get a job you need experience - well generally. If i dont get a job, then how do i get experience ?
As a fresher, how do i prove myself ? How do i get that crucial break ? (work for free for 1year perhaps ? few people refuse freebies)

I got my first job recently. I'm 22 years old, 4th year student. My job involves J2SE(mostly swing and their own framework). I applied to Aerospace corporation/NASA they denied me cause I had no server side skill. Right now my main priority is to gain real world experience and put it on my resume. I feel like even internships are getting difficult to find.

Sorry to interrupt with a newbie question. Please tell me if :

1-server side is the beans, jsp etc ? Anything else ?
2-client side is basically the UI - like html, css ?

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Server-side is what you don't see. There are many technologies and each has its own characters.
Examples of server-side techs: PHP, J2EE, ASP.NET, etc etc.

For our example I was using J2EE. Examples of server side technologies (ALL RELATED TO THE JAVA LANGUAGE) in J2EE: Servlets, JSP, JSF, Stripes, Spring, Hibernate, etc etc.

Client side is usually what you see when you hit a website: They include html, css, javascript, jquery, ajax, etc etc.

This is my view on it. I'f I'm incorrect, I hope someone corrects me.

[Bear Bibeault]

Rahul Sudip Bose wrote:

Bear Bibeault wrote:
Client-side coders (at least really good ones) are a tad harder to find.

Why do you say so ? Is it because it is very difficult ?

I'm not sure I can say why. While there are lot's of people who can do some work on the client side, few have progressed beyond the basics and usually view that as "good enough".

[Bear Bibeault]

Greg Bag wrote:This is my view on it. I'f I'm incorrect, I hope someone corrects me.

You've got it.

[leo donahue]

Bear Bibeault wrote:Roll your eyes if you like, I am entitled to my informed opinion.

what's wrong with JSF?

[Bear Bibeault]

My objections to JSF are well-documented in previous posts. I'm not going to rehash it all over again. And as this is the Servlets forum, isn't the right place for it in the first place.

[Rudy Gireyev]

Greg Bag wrote:Hey guys I'm kind of confused on what to learn next. As in, what J2EE technology should I be learning next. My main purpose is for marketability and finding jobs.

I know Servlets, JSP, JDBC

First and foremost I'd like to congratulate you on having found a job as a programmer. No easy task in our field. Secondly I thought I'd throw SQL out there as an addition to your list above. My experience with Hibernate showed it be a solution looking for a problem, whereas SQL is simple, powerful, elegant and self documenting. It is also faster than using Hibernate. Having said all that I do see many job reqs list Hibernate in the requirements. Disclaimer: All of my programming is done in the business sector.

Stepping down a tier of importance and remaining in the business programming environment I find SOA to be very useful at least in my work.

However, I noticed that you are looking for work more on the defense contractor side of the business. This will call for more technical knowledge.

I wish you lots of success and to stay as energetic and hungry for knowledge as you are now.
Rudy

[Pat Farrell]

Greg Bag wrote:Examples of server-side techs: PHP, J2EE, ASP.NET, etc etc.

Only that no one calls it J2EE anymore. They dropped the "2"

I agree with the basic idea that you have to be fluent in the client-side stuff, even if you focus mostly on the server-side. The big innovation is client side these days. Servlets have been in production use for a decade, no sizzle left.

[leo donahue]

Pat Farrell wrote:Servlets have been in production use for a decade, no sizzle left.

Blasphemy!

I don't think Servlets are at the cold fried egg stage yet. Even in JSF you need to know your servlets.

[Pat Farrell]

leo donahue wrote:Blasphemy!

I did not say that no one uses them. I write a new one each week. But they are no longer new or sexy. They are more like the String class. Useful, and used all the time, but no one will get a job just because they put the magic keyword "servlets" on their resume.

[leo donahue]

I guess.

I suppose if the OP asked Marty Hall what comes next after Servlets, he'd say "More Servlets". I'm suprised no one threw this out there already...

[Bear Bibeault]

Perhaps because Pat is correct?

As pointed out in another timely topic, just having Servlets and JSP on a resume isn't enough these days. Employers need and want more. That could be exposure to the server-side frameworks, or even client-side mastery.

[leo donahue]

Bear Bibeault wrote:Perhaps because Pat is correct?

What? Correct in the sense that servlets are useful, yes.

Can you get a job with just Servlets on your resume, it depends on the employer and what their "java rock stars" are whispering in their ears.

Now are you telling me that you leave JSP and Servlets off your resume because they don't have any sizzle left? Honestly? That is what I thought.

[Bear Bibeault]

leo donahue wrote:Now are you telling me that you leave JSP and Servlets off your resume

Please explain how you extrapolated that from

just having Servlets and JSP on a resume isn't enough these days.

or anything else that's been said in this thread.

[leo donahue]

Sure,

I extrapolated it from here:

... but no one will get a job just because they put the magic keyword "servlets" on their resume.

[Bear Bibeault]

In no way can that be construed as "don't put servlets on your resume". Just as it says, it means you'll be behind the eight ball if servlets is all that you have to offer.

[leo donahue]

Bear,

What I read from Pat, is that Servlets are about as sexy/useful as the String Class these days... used all the time, etc, yet many people list Servlets on their resume over stating they know/use the String Class.

I'll concede that if all you know is servlets, then you have alot of ground to make up, but it depends on what you want to do.

[Bear Bibeault]

leo donahue wrote:What I read from Pat ...

And as I have said, I have no idea how anyone could read "don't put servlets on your resume" into that.

[leo donahue]

Bear Bibeault wrote:And as I have said... I have no idea how anyone could read "don't put servlets on your resume" into that.

So what. Is it your job to know how?

You just can't let people have any opinion that is different than yours, can you.

[Bear Bibeault]

Expressing my opinion is hardly not letting you have your own.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

To clarify: Bear is saying that having Servlets on the resume is fine, but you should also have more current/hot technologies on it as well. Leo is saying the same thing. Then we went on a semantic discussions. Let's go back to the original topic rather than how one could have inferred if Bear was saying something different.

[Mohamed El-Feky]

I already Finished Studying EJB 3 .....plus an OCP certification and a good knowledge in html and css &xml i'm heading directly to JSF 2 .....i see that no need to know alot about jsp and servlets ....may be HTML 5 in the near future