the future of javascript

[Paul Anilprem]

Bear Bibeault wrote:
*** So here's another brick wall that's looming: anyone who is a web developer and isn't boning up on advanced JavaScript is due for a world of hurt.

Only time will tell but I don't see this happening ever. JavaScript is too low level. It suffers the same problem that exists with C/C++. Powerful but too close to the metal.

The need of the hour is powerful as well as expressive RIA platforms. There is a reason why technologies like GWT, Flex, Silverlight, and Flash keep coming up. Something of that sort will stick. JavaScript may be there but only under the hood. There will be only so much need to learn JavaScript as there is to learn C/C++ for a Java programmer today.

[Bear Bibeault]

Paul Anilprem wrote:There is a reason why technologies like GWT, Flex, Silverlight, and Flash keep coming up.

Except that they don't. GWT is a niche technology at best. Flex, hardly anyone has ever heard of. Both Silverlight and Flash are legacy technologies teetering on the edge of oblivion. Except for Flash, none of those have had any discernible impact on "the Web", and Flash is rapidly dying.

JavaScript isn't just there "under the hood", it's a major part of web development today, and will continue to do be in an increasing way.

There will be only so much need to learn JavaScript as there is to learn C/C++ for a Java programmer today.

Completely and utter balderdash, in my opinion. The vast majority of modern web applications rely heavily upon JavaScript. No Java program relies upon C/C++. The comparison is almost laughable in its speciousness.

Any web developers who would take that to heart, are, in my opinion, going to be in a world of hurt.

[Pat Farrell]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:There is a reason why technologies like GWT, Flex, Silverlight, and Flash keep coming up.

Except that they don't. GWT is a niche technology at best. Flex, hardly anyone has ever heard of. Both Silverlight and Flash are legacy technologies teetering on the edge of oblivion.

What @bear said. Steve Jobs banned Flash from IOS, which is the technology that is driving the next stages of our industry: mobile. Flex was Adobe's attempt to make Flash more programmable, we could be calling it dying now, but I don't think it every was really alive. Totally agree on Silverlight, it was Microsoft's attempt at Flex. I liked GWT, but I think I am one of only a handful of people who ever tried it.

@paul, I'd disagree with you most strongly, but this is meaningless drivel.

[Paul Anilprem]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:There is a reason why technologies like GWT, Flex, Silverlight, and Flash keep coming up.

Except that they don't.

What do you mean they don't! I just named 4 technologies. They did come up, didn't they? Big money was spent in developing those. Why? If JavaScript was the solution as you proclaim, why are companies trying to build such technologies? Just because they don't like JavaScript?

Bear Bibeault wrote:
GWT is a niche technology at best. Flex, hardly anyone has ever heard of. Both Silverlight and Flash are legacy technologies teetering on the edge of oblivion. Except for Flash, none of those have had any discernible impact on "the Web", and Flash is rapidly dying.

1. So? I didn't say they these are ones that are going to be popular. I said something on similar lines will be.
2. Flex and Silverlight are widely used in Financial firms. I do not know the popularity of GWT but based on personal experience, it was definitely very helpful in delivering mobile as well as desktop based webapp for us. What we did using GWT in a month could never have been done using raw JavaScript. I agree Flash is dying. But that is not the point. The point is why was it successful in the first place? If you think JavaScript is going to take Flash's space, you are dreaming.

Bear Bibeault wrote:
JavaScript isn't just there "under the hood", it's a major part of web development today, and will continue to do be in an increasing way.

Yes, it is. But it may only be a major component "under the hood" is my contention.

There will be only so much need to learn JavaScript as there is to learn C/C++ for a Java programmer today.
Completely and utter balderdash, in my opinion. The vast majority of modern web applications rely heavily upon JavaScript. No Java program relies upon C/C++.

Again, you are talking about today. I am talking about tomorrow. Raw JavaScript to develop modern RIA - DOA.

[Pat Farrell]

Paul Anilprem wrote:What do you mean they don't! I just named 4 technologies. They did come up, didn't they? Big money was spent in developing those. Why? If JavaScript was the solution as you proclaim, why are companies trying to build such technologies? Just because they don't like JavaScript?

Yes, exactly, Adobe and Microsoft want you to use their proprietary languages to write code that runs only on their platforms. They don't like JavaScript, Java and other languages that they don't control.

[Bear Bibeault]

Paul Anilprem wrote:They did come up, didn't they?

Emphasis on "did". Lots of technologies have come up to try and knock the triad of HTML/CSS/JavaScript off the pedestal. Hasn't happened.

If JavaScript was the solution as you proclaim

Today, JavaScript is the primary solution. Whether you or I believe that importance is deserved is irrelevant to my point.

1. So? I didn't say they these are ones that are going to be popular. I said something on similar lines will be.

But that is the point I was trying to make. JavaScript is an important technology for any web developer to know. Web developers without strong JavaScript knowledge will find the future challenging. Saying otherwise is hiding one's head in the sand.

Whether some new technology will come along that will be similarly important is always a possibility, but it's certainly not going to happen this week, or this month, or anytime in the near future.

If you think JavaScript is going to take Flash's space, you are dreaming.

You haven't been paying much attention, have you? That is already happening. HTML5 and JavaScript are rapidly knocking Flash off the web -- especially as the mobile platform becomes increasingly important.

Again, you are talking about today. I am talking about tomorrow.

Then you are not addressing what I posted at all. What happens in some nebulous "tomorrow" is irrelevant to my point: web developers are going to need strong JavaScript skills to get ahead and stay employed. Whether there will be some new future technology that they'll also need to learn at some point is another discussion and has nothing to do with today's reality.

[Paul Anilprem]

Pat Farrell wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:What do you mean they don't! I just named 4 technologies. They did come up, didn't they? Big money was spent in developing those. Why? If JavaScript was the solution as you proclaim, why are companies trying to build such technologies? Just because they don't like JavaScript?

Yes, exactly, Adobe and Microsoft want you to use their proprietary languages to write code that runs only on their platforms. They don't like JavaScript, Java and other languages that they don't control.

Oh, so all other technologies are developed just for altruistic reasons? Of course, they want to every one to use their technology. But they will succeed only if they deliver what is needed to get the job done. You can walk into any financial firm and I promise you that you will see Flex or Silverlight based applications. The reason is raw javascript just doesn't cut it. If it did, no one has free money to throw away on proprietary technologies.

[Ulf Dittmer]

Paul Anilprem wrote:You can walk into any financial firm and I promise you that you will see Flex or Silverlight based applications.

Nobody claimed that there aren't Flex or Silverlight apps out there. But since you repeatedly mention "financial firms", drawing conclusions from 1% of the overall population of companies seems fanciful.

The reason is raw javascript just doesn't cut it.

This might be an interesting point worth debating if you said what you actually mean by it - how and why doesn't it cut it? Why do so many developers inside and outside of companies of all sizes find it easy and/or advantageous to do without those technologies?

[Paul Anilprem]

Ulf Dittmer wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:You can walk into any financial firm and I promise you that you will see Flex or Silverlight based applications.

Nobody claimed that there aren't Flex or Silverlight apps out there. But since you repeatedly mention "financial firms", drawing conclusions from 1% of the overall population of companies seems fanciful.

The reason is raw javascript just doesn't cut it.

This might be an interesting point worth debating if you said what you actually mean by it - how and why doesn't it cut it? Why do so many developers inside and outside of companies of all sizes find it easy and/or advantageous to do without those technologies?

I have a question - Can you show me any non-trivial web application that doesn't use any form of wrapper over JavaScript or any higher level JavaScript library? Every app that I have seen uses some or the other library or framework meant to abstract out raw javascript such as YUI, Dojo, or GWT. There are tons of such libraries around. The more recent the web app, the more removed it is from raw javascript development. GWT is the epitome of what I am saying. It is so removed from JavaScript that you don't even have to write a single line of JavaScript.

So my point is that this trend will continue and that you won't need to do much with JavaScript.

[Bear Bibeault]

Paul Anilprem wrote:Can you show me any non-trivial web application that doesn't use any form of wrapper over JavaScript or any higher level JavaScript library?

No one has said that no one uses JavaScript libraries. What does that have to do with anything? Of course most sites will use a JavaScript library -- jQuery being the most prevalent. In fact, I am on record elsewhere as saying that trying to write JavaScript without jQuery is plain-out stupid. YUI and Dojo are also fine, though lesser-used, alternatives.

For any of those, you are writing JavaScript. In fact, using those libraries effectively requires a high level of JavaScript savyy-ness.

GWT isn't in the same category; it's another beast entirely.

GWT is the epitome of what I am saying.

With GWT, you write in Java similar to creating Swing apps. Then it's "compiled" to HTML/CSS/JavaScript. It's compelling for people who are familiar with Java but not with web technologies. But it hasn't really made any appreciable impact.

So my point is that this trend will continue and that you won't need to do much with JavaScript.

And that's where we disagree. GWT hasn't taken over the world, and there's nothing else on the horizon poised to take over either.

For the foreseeable future, HTML, CSS and JavaScript are the kings of the hill, and web developers need to be strong with all three.

[Paul Anilprem]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:Can you show me any non-trivial web application that doesn't use any form of wrapper over JavaScript or any higher level JavaScript library?

No one has said that no one uses JavaScript libraries. What does that have to do with anything? Of course most sites will use a JavaScript library -- jQuery being the most prevalent. In fact, I am on record elsewhere as saying that trying to write JavaScript without jQuery is plain-out stupid. YUI and Dojo are also fine, though lesser-used, alternatives.
For any of those, you are writing JavaScript. In fact, using those libraries effectively requires a high level of JavaScript savyy-ness.

Bear Bibeault wrote:
*** So here's another brick wall that's looming: anyone who is a web developer and isn't boning up on advanced JavaScript is due for a world of hurt.

Do you see the contradiction in the above two quotes?

There is no such brick wall that's looming. I have already pointed out in my previous posts that there has been a constant push towards technologies that give a higher level of abstraction for developing serious web based enterprise application. Right from Flash to GWT. The reason is simple. JavaScript is too low level and it takes to much time to build anything serious using JavaScript. JavaScript libraries such as jQuery/YUI/dojo are just a band aid. Without these libraries JavaScript is useless anyway and even with these, it not enough.

Technologies such as Flex/Silverlight/GWT are attempts to fix that inherent problem with JavaScript development. Flex and Silverlight have no JavaScript underneath, while GWT does. They all belong to the same category. i.e. the developer doesn't need to care about JavaScript. In past 7 years I have seen web app development move away from JavaScript libraries to one of these three technologies. We have recently delivered a huge financial application where the front end is built on Flex. For new application that we about to start work on, I don't see any other alternative that can reduce our time to deliver even though we know that Adobe has washed its hands off Flex. Even if these technologies are not successful by your standard, that doesn't mean JavaScript development is the solution. That doesn't make the problem go away.

I am sure you will call it anecdotal evidence and reject the argument but I know about the industry I work in and I don't see any project doing any serious JavaScript development. I see either plain old JSP pages with trivial JavaScript that any Java developer can easily handle or RIAs built using Flex/Silverlight/GWT. In both the cases, JavaScript is pretty much not a factor to worry about.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

but I know about the industry I work in

I think this is the key. You work in one industry (finance.) Even if your world doesn't use JavaScript, that doesn't mean other businesses don't. And even that isn't universal. I work for a bank and I see plenty of JavaScript around. If you are thinking of traders, then yes - they tend to use heavier clients.

[Pat Farrell]

Paul Anilprem wrote: In both the cases, JavaScript is pretty much not a factor to worry about.

Why should you worry? You are happy. Stay that way.

You seem to be trying to "win" the argument. This is not the forum to win anything. And JavaRanch is really not a good set of forums to win arguments.

You are free to believe what you want, and disagree with anyone you want, @bear, me, anyone.

I believe that you are not convincing anyone with your arguments.

[Bear Bibeault]

Paul Anilprem wrote:Do you see the contradiction in the above two quotes?

There is no contradiction. Web developers, regardless of the use of JavaScript libraries or tools, are going to need a high level of JavaScript knowledge to stay viable in the industry.

Any other view, in my opinion, is myopic and ignoring what is going on across industries. Sure, there may be domains (such as the finance you keep mentioning) in which simple JSP pages without script may be the norm, but that's a far cry from what's going on in web development in general.

There is no such brick wall that's looming.

Again, I disagree. Anyone who is not working in a niche that's bucking the general trends in web development is going to hit that wall pretty quickly, if they haven't already.

I have already pointed out in my previous posts that there has been a constant push towards technologies that give a higher level of abstraction for developing serious web based enterprise application. Right from Flash to GWT.

And again, Flash is dying and GWT is a niche technology. You can argue that JavaScript is too low level until you are blue in the face, but that won't change the fact that it's still the lingua franca of modern web development.

JavaScript libraries such as jQuery/YUI/dojo are just a band aid. Without these libraries JavaScript is useless anyway and even with these, it not enough.

To me, that's like saying that Java without its libraries is useless. Granted, using a library makes the job much easier, but that can be said about any language. Can you do ORM yourself in Java? Sure. But why not use Hibernate to make it easier?

While jQuery has become almost ubiquitous, I think it's specious to claim that JavaScript is useless without it. Plenty of high-powered sites were written before jQuery.

Technologies such as Flex/Silverlight/GWT ... all belong to the same category. i.e. the developer doesn't need to care about JavaScript.

And that's fine for people working in those technologies. But that's a small, small percentage of web developers.

In past 7 years I have seen web app development move away from JavaScript libraries to one of these three technologies.

And I have seen no such trend. It may be true in your industry, but it's certainly not a general trend. Far from it.

and reject the argument but I know about the industry I work in

I said no such thing, and would never think such a thing. But it's clear that your industry is not in any way representative of the web development community in general.

[Paul Anilprem]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:Do you see the contradiction in the above two quotes?

There is no contradiction. Web developers, regardless of the use of JavaScript libraries or tools, are going to need a high level of JavaScript knowledge to stay viable in the industry.

Any other view, in my opinion, is myopic and ignoring what is going on across industries. Sure, there may be domains (such as the finance you keep mentioning) in which simple JSP pages without script may be the norm, but that's a far cry from what's going on in web development in general.

I did not say "without javascript". I said trivial javascript that any java developer can easily handle.

I have already pointed out in my previous posts that there has been a constant push towards technologies that give a higher level of abstraction for developing serious web based enterprise application. Right from Flash to GWT.

And again, Flash is dying and GWT is a niche technology. You can argue that JavaScript is too low level until you are blue in the face, but that won't change the fact that it's still the lingua franca of modern web development.

And you keep mentioning about this general trend towards javascript development but you have not given any example of any industry where this is true. I have at least given one example where this is not true.

That is not to say there are no jobs that require heavy JavaScript expertise. But how do you know they are the general trend and not the niche. My observation is just the opposite.

Plenty of high-powered sites were written before jQuery.

Of course they were. Operating systems were probably coded in Assembly. That doesn't mean it is important to gain expertise in Assembly language at this time.

Technologies such as Flex/Silverlight/GWT ... all belong to the same category. i.e. the developer doesn't need to care about JavaScript.

And that's fine for people working in those technologies. But that's a small, small percentage of web developers.

How do you know that? Do you have any data to back that claim?

In past 7 years I have seen web app development move away from JavaScript libraries to one of these three technologies.

And I have seen no such trend. It may be true in your industry, but it's certainly not a general trend. Far from it.

How do you know that? Do you have any data to back the claim that JavaScript is the general trend?

[Paul Anilprem]

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:

but I know about the industry I work in

I think this is the key. You work in one industry (finance.) Even if your world doesn't use JavaScript, that doesn't mean other businesses don't. And even that isn't universal. I work for a bank and I see plenty of JavaScript around. If you are thinking of traders, then yes - they tend to use heavier clients.

The following are genuine questions that I would like to ask:
Do you see people doing primarily JavaScript development in your area? Have you seen a lot of recruitment of candidates whose primary skill is JavaScript? Have you recruited any candidate who didn't know anything other than JavaScript? Have you recruited candidate who was strong in other technologies but had a working knowledge of JavaScript? Was JavaScript a deal killer while recruiting any candidate?

My observation is that there is indeed plenty of JavaScript but not of the sort Bear is talking about. I don't see people having books on JavaScript on their desks but they do have books on other technologies. Is your observation any different?
thank you,
Paul.

[Ulf Dittmer]

[Steve Luke]

Paul Anilprem wrote:...The need of the hour is powerful as well as expressive RIA platforms. There is a reason why technologies like GWT, Flex, Silverlight, and Flash keep coming up. ...

...

Paul Anilprem wrote:I have already pointed out in my previous posts that there has been a constant push towards technologies that give a higher level of abstraction for developing serious web based enterprise application. Right from Flash to GWT.
...
Technologies such as Flex/Silverlight/GWT are attempts to fix that inherent problem with JavaScript development.

...

etc...

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Flex/Silverlight or GWT and other libraries are about.

Flex and Silverlight are not about addressing problems with JavaScript. They are companies that recognize the power of HTML/CSS/JavaScript and want to put competing products to take some of the market. They aren't in response to JavaScript's problems, they are responses to its success. It is like saying Android, Windows Phone, and all the other new competitors only exists because of the flaws of iPhone: that's not the case: they exist because the iPhone was successful so the other manufacturers came out with competing products to capture more revenue (okay the Windows Phone existed before iPhone, but not in its current form). The fact that they had the ability to respond to JavaScript's flaws, were designed from the get-go for RIA, and are still are unable to dent JavaScript's popularity is a testament to JS' staying power: not the ringing of its death knell.

GWT is different altogether. Google wants everyone to get to the cloud. To do that RIA web apps need to be more prevalent and more powerful. It seems to me that Google believes the technologies are in place or close to being in place, and all that is needed is to seed the environment to get more buy-in. Once a critical mass of well-developed web apps are in place, the momentum will tip it into the primary user experience. Tipping the balance is what is behind a lot of Google's activities, including the Chrome browser, the Chrome OS, and yes, GWT. The goal of GWT is to open Web App development up to new developers with lower cost of entry. The idea is that there are tons of Java developers out there, and lots of classes dedicated to teaching Java. GWT is a means of recruiting these developers to be web developers without a huge learning curve. Google isn't 'replacing' or f'fixing' JavaScript with GWT, it is buying-in and creating an environment where others can buy-in without heavy cost. The fact that developers using GWT program in Java and not JavaScript is a minor point in the long run: once an application is of sufficient size and complexity the GWT layer can be pealed back and the HTML/CSS/JavaScript accessed directly for maintenance and functional expansion.

[Paul Anilprem]

Steve Luke wrote:
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Flex/Silverlight or GWT and other libraries are about.

Flex and Silverlight are not about addressing problems with JavaScript. They are companies that recognize the power of HTML/CSS/JavaScript and want to put competing products to take some of the market. They aren't in response to JavaScript's problems, they are responses to its success.

I don't agree with that. The basic reason higher level abstractions come along is because it takes too much time to develop using lower level abstractions. C/C++ replaced Assembly and Java replaced C/C++. My argument is that the case with JavaScript is similar. Yes, it is very powerful, very widely used. Yet, there is a a distinct need for higher level abstraction provided by RIA technologies. These are the technologies that developers will be required to learn instead of PhD in JavaScript. A working knowledge of JavaScript is all that is required.

It is like saying Android, Windows Phone, and all the other new competitors only exists because of the flaws of iPhone: that's not the case: they exist because the iPhone was successful so the other manufacturers came out with competing products to capture more revenue (okay the Windows Phone existed before iPhone, but not in its current form). The fact that they had the ability to respond to JavaScript's flaws, were designed from the get-go for RIA, and are still are unable to dent JavaScript's popularity is a testament to JS' staying power: not the ringing of its death knell.

That is totally not what I am saying. I am not at all talking about ringing JS death knell. If you read my posts, you will notice that I am talking about the non-existing need need for learning advanced JavaScript that Bear refers to.

The fact that developers using GWT program in Java and not JavaScript is a minor point in the long run: once an application is of sufficient size and complexity the GWT layer can be pealed back and the HTML/CSS/JavaScript accessed directly for maintenance and functional expansion.

I may be wrong but this statement indicates to me that you have never done any serious GWT development. It is practically impossible to peel away GWT layer and maintain the JS code directly underneath. And that's the whole point. JS is like the assembly language of the web. You need higher level abstractions.

[chris webster]

[Zapped my post as it's irrelevant to the new topic]

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Paul Anilprem wrote:The following are genuine questions that I would like to ask:
Do you see people doing primarily JavaScript development in your area?

Yes, there are some people at my company who specialize in advanced JavaScript. That is the case in other (non-finance) domains too.

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you seen a lot of recruitment of candidates whose primary skill is JavaScript?

Here's a job recruitment add from the New York Times.
I http://jobs.nytco.com/job/New-York-Interactive-News-Developer-Job-NY/2235011/

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you recruited any candidate who didn't know anything other than JavaScript? H

I don't like this question. I don't think there is anyone who ONLY knows JavaScript. Even a JavaScript specialist knows HTML, CSS, etc.

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you recruited candidate who was strong in other technologies but had a working knowledge of JavaScript? Was JavaScript a deal killer while recruiting any candidate?

Of course. We've also hired people who specialize in MQ, databases, business analysis, etc. I'm not saying everyone has to be a JavaScript expert. I'd also like to mention that I work in a large company. At a smaller company, there isn't going to be as much specialization. Making the need Bear alluded to more important.

Paul Anilprem wrote:My observation is that there is indeed plenty of JavaScript but not of the sort Bear is talking about. I don't see people having books on JavaScript on their desks but they do have books on other technologies. Is your observation any different?

I have several JavaScript books on my desk. Including a couple on jQuery. The jQuery ones get borrowed regularly. The JavaScript ones only get borrowed once in a while because people think they know JavaScript. When they really just know the basics you alluded to. I routinely get asked things like "how to validate a complex field" or "how to select some element". I'm not a JavaScript expert, but know some things. I agree with Bear that the "average developer" should learn more JavaScript (and jQuery) than in the past.

[Paul Anilprem]

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:

Paul Anilprem wrote:The following are genuine questions that I would like to ask:
Do you see people doing primarily JavaScript development in your area?

Yes, there are some people at my company who specialize in advanced JavaScript. That is the case in other (non-finance) domains too.

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you seen a lot of recruitment of candidates whose primary skill is JavaScript?

Here's a job recruitment add from the New York Times.
I http://jobs.nytco.com/job/New-York-Interactive-News-Developer-Job-NY/2235011/

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you recruited any candidate who didn't know anything other than JavaScript? H

I don't like this question. I don't think there is anyone who ONLY knows JavaScript. Even a JavaScript specialist knows HTML, CSS, etc.

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you recruited candidate who was strong in other technologies but had a working knowledge of JavaScript? Was JavaScript a deal killer while recruiting any candidate?

Of course. We've also hired people who specialize in MQ, databases, business analysis, etc. I'm not saying everyone has to be a JavaScript expert. I'd also like to mention that I work in a large company. At a smaller company, there isn't going to be as much specialization. Making the need Bear alluded to more important.

Paul Anilprem wrote:My observation is that there is indeed plenty of JavaScript but not of the sort Bear is talking about. I don't see people having books on JavaScript on their desks but they do have books on other technologies. Is your observation any different?

I have several JavaScript books on my desk. Including a couple on jQuery. The jQuery ones get borrowed regularly. The JavaScript ones only get borrowed once in a while because people think they know JavaScript. When they really just know the basics you alluded to. I routinely get asked things like "how to validate a complex field" or "how to select some element". I'm not a JavaScript expert, but know some things. I agree with Bear that the "average developer" should learn more JavaScript (and jQuery) than in the past.

Thank you for your response, Jeanne. I see your point.

[Bear Bibeault]

Thanks for splitting this off into its own topic Jeanne! It has strayed a bit afield from the original.

Here's my take on some of Paul's questions.

Paul Anilprem wrote:
Do you see people doing primarily JavaScript development in your area?

Yes. Our servers are mostly becoming simple RESTful web APIs and the applications are primarily JavaScript using client-side templating with packages like Backbone, Ember and lately, AngularJS.

This is not a trend that I see limited to a single industry, but in web applications spanning many domains.

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you seen a lot of recruitment of candidates whose primary skill is JavaScript?

Absolutely. Here in Austin, where web development is a Big Thing™, developers with deep JavaScript knowledge are in demand.

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you recruited any candidate who didn't know anything other than JavaScript?

No, I'd never hire anybody who knew only one thing. A web developer needs a varied set of skills. Same way as I'd never hire anybody who self-identifies as a "Java developer".

Paul Anilprem wrote:Have you recruited candidate who was strong in other technologies but had a working knowledge of JavaScript?

Yes. I've even hired people who only work on the server. It depends upon need. Besides, if there's one thing I can do, it's teach people stuff.

Was JavaScript a deal killer while recruiting any candidate?

Yes. I've hired for positions requiring a high level of JavaScript. For others, not so much. It depends upon the position and the level. Same as with any other technology.

Paul Anilprem wrote:My observation is that there is indeed plenty of JavaScript but not of the sort Bear is talking about.

I see it (obviously). And, as I've said, I see a definite shifting to more advanced JavaScript.

I don't see people having books on JavaScript on their desks but they do have books on other technologies.

Every web developer I know has JavaScript books on their desk (or on their Kindle more and more as of late). I even know a lot of web devos who work in PHP who are digging into JavaScript more and more. After all, it's not just for Java web applications. In fact, most of the predominate JavaScript technologies (including jQuery) came from technology stacks other than Java (the Ruby/Rails arena, for example).

Paul, I think you've established that much of your focus is one industry: finance. In the decade and a half that I've worked in web applications, I've spanned many industries (business to business, automative, banking, credit, debit, cloud governance, television, and weather, to name a few), and feel that I have a pretty good view of the general web application arena. And, as an author, I work to keep my outlook as broad as possible.

I base my assertions on the trends I see in web development across those industries. And so I'm just saying, that from what Ive seen as a trend in web development across multiple industries, is that JavaScript is becoming a more and more important skill that web developers ignore at their own risk.

The view from your window can, of course, be very different.

[Paul Anilprem]

Thank you for taking time in answering my questions, Bear. You certainly have more experience with varied industries than I do so I will take your word for it.