Windows 8 sucks

[Jim Venolia]

Got my new laptop today, came with Windows 8. My god this UI sucks.

I'm old. I've used (where "used" means "Got pretty good at") OS's for PDP-11's, Vaxen, Pyramids, TRS-80, SunOS, X11, several flavors of Windows, and assorted GUIs for Linux. I have never been as confused as I am now with this stupid touchscreen based UI on a laptop without a touchscreen. I've thought "my god this OS is a pain in the butt" (I'm talking to you Pyramid and PDP), but I was never confused, nor did I ever think a UI flat out sucked.

Problems?

1) It's a UI based on a touchscreen, where 80% of the population doesn't have a touchscreen.
2) Swiping from the right of the screen seems to work maybe 1 time in 5. Confusing, dunno if it's not allowed or I'm doing it wrong.
3) Google for answers, and most of the time the answer is for what I assume is an earlier version of Win8, because I don't see that menu/option.
4) Find a setup page, set the options I like, but there's no clear way to close the window because it's the entire screen. I can't figure out how to save the options, go back, or do anything. Do the lower left corner thing. Hmmm, did my changes take effect, get thrown away, or is there still a window somewhere waiting for me to accept the changes or cancel out?

Something as simple as finding out how to set my workgroup was several minutes, and I've now spent 30 minutes trying to figure out why the damn thing won't show up in my workgroup. Hmmm, maybe it should be a homegroup. Google. No, that's prolly not it. 20 minutes later lets make my workgroup be a homegroup. oops, need to reboot. Um, how do I reboot? Google sez lower left corner, menu option. I do lower left corner, that menu option isn't in my menu. Same thing I see for about 90% of my google searches. At least I know my IP addys and got cygwin installed, I can ping everybody just fine. Just can't talk to them.

Maybe I should try bing, but I think I'll start drinking instead.

Basic problem seems to be I know what and how I want to do, I just can't find where to do it.

/ rant off
// at least my 6 y/o WinXP laptop still works
/// mebbe I can put Win7 on my brand spanking new lappy
//// First thing I did was update to 8.1, but have no idea if this thing has rebooted nor which OS version I'm running. Windows says 8 copyrite 2013.

[Bear Bibeault]

This is all a direct result of Ballmer's mantra of "Windows everywhere!".

The only reason for the existence of the Surface is to spread Windows into the tablet space. So it's a logical, if highly flawed, conclusion that the tablet OS be touch-enabled Windows. But it wouldn't be "Windows everywhere" if there was a "Tablet Windows" and a "Desktop Windows". So they need to be the same. Regardless of how bad an idea that is.

Whoever steps into Ballmer's shoes has a hell of a mess to dig him or herself out of.

[Bear Bibeault]

Contrast this directly with the iPad/iPhone and Android device space. The reason for these devices is to sell the devices, not to propagate iOS or Android.

[Jim Venolia]

What I really like is, paraphrased from a Microsoft.com link, the statement along the lines "we've streamlined the shutdown process". They replaced "click start, click shutdown, click reboot" with "go to this unmarked place onscreen, press 2 keys, select a menu option that I'm not seeing, ...".

Adding "press 2 keys" for a reboot is simplifying? Let alone the menu option I'm supposed to click doesn't exist on my machine?

[Pat Farrell]

I feel your pain. The world in general has rejected Windows 8, even though I hear that 8.1 is a little less painful.

Microsoft has a problem. The PC is dying, and they make all of their money off the PC (except for the Xbox game consoles) market. Specifically, they made way over 50%, probably over 85% of their profit off of Windows the OS and Office the software that runs on Windows the OS. All of which is dying.

Their efforts into smartphones has failed, over and over. No one expects that their purchase of Nokia will change that. Their RT tablets have failed completely, as bad as the Kin phones. Their Widows on Tablets tablets are getting decent reviews, but not any sales impact.

Microsoft has to convert the billions and billions of Windows users to its tablet/touch OS or they are dead. Microsoft being dead, not the billions and billions of users. So they decided that Windows 8 would be the crowbar to the head of users to force them to go touch.

I think that was a bad idea, but I can understand why they did it.

I would not take the job of being the new CEO of Microsoft, even though it will pay millions and has the potential to make you a hero.

[Jelle Klap]

Pat Farrell wrote:The PC is dying

Wuh? I must have missed the announcement.

[Paul Clapham]

Jelle Klap wrote:

Pat Farrell wrote:The PC is dying

Wuh? I must have missed the announcement.

Sure, the sales of computers (desktop and laptop) have been falling for some time now. I suppose there are several reasons, but the most obvious one is that people's smartphones now do most of what people actually used computers for.

[Jelle Klap]

Paul Clapham wrote:

Jelle Klap wrote:

Pat Farrell wrote:The PC is dying

Wuh? I must have missed the announcement.

Sure, the sales of computers (desktop and laptop) have been falling for some time now. I suppose there are several reasons, but the most obvious one is that people's smartphones now do most of what people actually used computers for.

That may very well be true for some people and some use cases, but most certainly not for everyone and everything. No smartphone or tablet can replace the functionality offered by a desktop or laptop, not even for something as seemingly trivial as word processing. Desktops and laptops aren't going anywhere in the near future.

[Bear Bibeault]

Jelle Klap wrote:Desktops and laptops aren't going anywhere in the near future.

Unintended double-entendre!

Sure, they're going to be around for quite some time, but their sales "aren't going anywhere". In fact, they're in the toilet. For an organization that lives and dies by the sales of PCs, like Microsoft, that's death.

[Pat Farrell]

Jelle Klap wrote:That may very well be true for some people and some use cases, but most certainly not for everyone and everything. No smartphone or tablet can replace the functionality offered by a desktop or laptop, not even for something as seemingly trivial as word processing. Desktops and laptops aren't going anywhere in the near future.

I think you have the spirit right, but you have it backwards.

For most people, the use case for a desktop is gone already. The requirements for a laptop are dying by the day.

Sure, for some jobs, say professional software development, video editing, etc. there will always be a hard requirement for serious power and that will be desktops or professional laptops. But for the majority of users on the Internet, today's phone is what they need.

How soon it becomes a hard fact is open to argument. The direction is not. IMHO

[Paul Clapham]

Jelle Klap wrote:

Paul Clapham wrote:

Sure, the sales of computers (desktop and laptop) have been falling for some time now. I suppose there are several reasons, but the most obvious one is that people's smartphones now do most of what people actually used computers for.

That may very well be true for some people and some use cases, but most certainly not for everyone and everything. No smartphone or tablet can replace the functionality offered by a desktop or laptop, not even for something as seemingly trivial as word processing. Desktops and laptops aren't going anywhere in the near future.

Of course it's not for everyone. But it applies to a large percentage of people. It's a fact that the sale of computers has been declining for quite some time, and all you are saying is that at the present time that the sales of personal computers should not be zero. Which it isn't.

[Jelle Klap]

Bear Bibeault wrote:

Jelle Klap wrote:Desktops and laptops aren't going anywhere in the near future.

Unintended double-entendre!

Unintended? Says who?
But yeah it was...

I absolutely agree that desktops and laptops have been superseded by tablets, and to a lesser extent smartphones, in some key areas where functionality overlaps.
That still leaves a huge chunk of the market where laptops and desktops reign supreme, though. I think a very important reason for the decline in laptop/desktop sales is economy, rather than superiority of alternatives.
If all you do is browse "teh intarnets" or check your e-mail (does anyone still use that anymore?) a cheaper tablet or smartphone (or both) is sufficient.

[Pat Farrell]

Paul Clapham wrote: But it applies to a large percentage of people. It's a fact that the sale of computers has been declining for quite some time, and all you are saying is that at the present time that the sales of personal computers should not be zero. Which it isn't.

This is the key. For 20+ years, if you wanted a computer, you got a Windows computer. And you got Office. Even if all you did was surf AOL, you got a Windows computer.

I will argue that its not just "a large percentage of people" but it is "most people" don't need Windows, don't want a desktop or laptop. Don't need a keyboard.

In this, Microsoft made the correct call in designing Windows 8 to be touch. But that ignores their legacy installed base, who don't want to change. They did it because even Microsoft can see that the number of folks in their installed base is shrinking every day.

[Greg Charles]

I've read in numerous "Windows 8 sucks" in various forums that you can disable most of the touchscreen like settings if you prefer the classic Windows style. I have a bit of sympathy for Microsoft here (which is rare for me) because big interface changes, even if well-considered, inevitably spawn much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Apple's new iOS is also the subject of many complaints now. On the other hand, I haven't had it inflicted on me personally yet, and problems always seem more trivial when they're somebody else's. As Shakespeare said, "There was never yet philosopher that could endure the toothache patiently." When this toothache comes to me, I'm sure I'll be cursing Windows 8 and heartily as I curse IE now.

[Jelle Klap]

Paul Clapham wrote:

Jelle Klap wrote:

Paul Clapham wrote:

Sure, the sales of computers (desktop and laptop) have been falling for some time now. I suppose there are several reasons, but the most obvious one is that people's smartphones now do most of what people actually used computers for.

That may very well be true for some people and some use cases, but most certainly not for everyone and everything. No smartphone or tablet can replace the functionality offered by a desktop or laptop, not even for something as seemingly trivial as word processing. Desktops and laptops aren't going anywhere in the near future.

Of course it's not for everyone. But it applies to a large percentage of people. It's a fact that the sale of computers has been declining for quite some time, and all you are saying is that at the present time that the sales of personal computers should not be zero. Which it isn't.

No, what I'm saying is that it'll will never comes close to reaching zero in the foreseeable future. They have been pushed out of a large segment of the market, and for good reason, but that's decline, not death, and I think that decline will level out.

[Pat Farrell]

Jelle Klap wrote: that's decline, not death, and I think that decline will level out.

Do you consider that there is a real difference between the decline of Blackberry and death?

[Bear Bibeault]

Greg Charles wrote:I've read in numerous "Windows 8 sucks" in various forums that you can disable most of the touchscreen like settings if you prefer the classic Windows style.

If this is true (don't know myself, I've never even touched Windows 8 yet), Aunt Mathilda is not going to figure it out so it doesn't matter.

This is the same reason that "The Year of the Linux Desktop" has never happened, and will never happen. If Aunt Mathilda can't figure it out, it's dead to the vast majority of the user base. The developer base doesn't count. The Slashdot crowd doesn't count. Aunt Mathilda counts.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Pat Farrell wrote:

Jelle Klap wrote: that's decline, not death, and I think that decline will level out.

Do you consider that there is a real difference between the decline of Blackberry and death?

Love it.

[Greg Charles]

Well, maybe. However, it seems to me that it's not the Aunts Matilda of the world who are pitching the fit about Windows 8. Linux though, I agree with. Aunt Matilda is not ready for Linux the way it exists now.

[Pat Farrell]

Greg Charles wrote: Aunt Matilda is not ready for Linux the way it exists now.

Well, she will never be ready for Linux, but why should she care? An Android tablet is Linux based, but none of the Aunt Matildas of the world will ever know.

Chromebooks are gaining enough traction that Microsoft is running ads against them. For a large number of computer users, a Chromebook is all the computer they want to know about.

[J. Kevin Robbins]

Most users, including Aunt Matilda, don't know or care what operating system they have. Most of them can't even define an operating system. To the average user, Internet Explorer is both the Internet and Windows. They don't know the difference. I can't tell you how many users I've worked with that don't even know what a browser is. They only know to click the "E" and proceed from there.

That's why I think the operating system should "disappear" into the background and Apple and Google are doing a better job at this than Microsoft. It's all about the applications, not the OS. The OS shouldn't be in your face.

btw, I completely agree that Win 8 sucks. I've supported Windows since version 1.0 and I've never seen such a mess as version 8. The first time I sat down at one, it took me 10 minutes just to figure out how to get into the Control Panel.

[Jim Venolia]

The main problem with Win 8 is it assumes a touch interface. My brand new laptop does not have a touch interface. That is a feature, not a bug; I ensured my new toy did not have a touchscreen. With the laptop I got a 10 page "Getting started with Windows 8". Every operation was of the form "swipe...", "touch this and hold it a while....", etc. No mention of what to do if you don't have a touchscreen.

Upgrading to 8.1 was better, but the main thing was I just got used to working around Metro to get to my desktop. Metro is now an annoyance, not a showstopper.

Figured something out monday. I've been having the problem of my Charm menu and clock keep popping up when I don't want them. Finally figured out that it treats my touchpad as a touchscreen. So when my thumb goes right to left, starting near the right side, Winblows brings up this stupid window. Trying to figure out how to make it stop doing that, haven't figured it out yet. Haven't even found anyone that says this happens, although I haven't looked very hard.

To me the most damning thing is I was laying in bed trying to think of a reason why I couldn't just install Linux. Turbotax. 1 thing I use that I would miss if I switched to Linux. jeez.

As for the slowdown in PC/Laptop sales, my $0.02. I just replaced a 6 year old laptop. Was it because it no longer did everything I needed it to do? No, it's because the old one started developing hardware failures.

When my desktop wouldn't boot after a move due to divorce (looks like the mobo wanted to stay with the ex) I bought a PS3. I miss using the mouse/keyboard for control, and the nice graphics. I don't miss buying new GPUs every 2 years, spending the money for a gaming rig, and needing to move from my La-Z-Boy with bigscreen TV to the office with a 21" monitor. I'm on the fence on whether I'll get a PS4 or a new desktop when it's time to upgrade.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Jim Venolia wrote:
To me the most damning thing is I was laying in bed trying to think of a reason why I couldn't just install Linux. Turbotax. 1 thing I use that I would miss if I switched to Linux. jeez.

Can't you do that online now? Without downloading software?

[Jim Venolia]

I'm not that trusting.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Jim Venolia wrote:I'm not that trusting.

You do realize what happens when you submit your taxes to the government, right? It's all out there already.

[Steve Luke]

PlayOnLinux may work. There is even a specific bug fix to get TurboTax to work: http://www.playonlinux.com/w/wine-1.5.7 bug #29666

And there is also VMs. If you have an app or few that need Windows, keep the license for Windows you have, install Linux, and install Windows in a VM using your current license, and only fire it up when you need those apps. This, of course, assumes you have installation media. If you have Windows 7 codes, but not the install media, then you can get the ISOs from DigitalRiver (Microsoft's digital content distributor). If you have Windows 8 licenses but not install media, I think you need this: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/upgrade-product-key-only but not positive (you may need to install a Win 7 evaluation copy in the VM, then visit that page).

[Bear Bibeault]

Jim Venolia wrote:Turbotax. 1 thing I use that I would miss if I switched to Linux. jeez.

I use Ramona.

She lives less than 20 minutes away, and doesn't care what OS I use.

[Steve Luke]

I also think PCs are going to die as a consumer device - and not too distantly from now. There will be niches: high-end gamers will be the main consumer type user. The other uses will be interacting with machinery and devices which require higher throughput and/or storage than what you get on laptops and tablets. I work in a business were we are interacting with all kinds of hardware, we need to get Gb/s off of a camera and onto disk (and in cases double that total for 2 cameras). At the same time we need to control motors and sync movement with the cameras. This all requires boards that won't fit in smaller devices. What I see happening in the future is these worker machines running in the background dedicated to their tasks, and thin tablet or web interfaces running the UI so the PCs become nothing more than a component of the machine it runs.

Video and such will be on PCs until some enterprising company finds a way to let you take local data, mark it for processing, then ship it to server farms for processing (you get the software for free, of course, and rent the bandwidth you use to process). I would hope that wasn't too far off, but it seems to have taken forever to get 'cloud' word processors to work at a reasonable speed, and spreadsheets are still no good in the cloud. So cloud video/sound/data processing for everyone may be farther out than I imagine.

[Maneesh Godbole]

Shouldnt this topic be titled "Windows 8 creaks"?

[Jim Venolia]

Really?

I just did a search in Chrome via trusty ctl^f. Nada. Dafuq, tried it again. de nada. Turned on the light to ensure I was hitting the right keys, que no senor. Tried the Windows key ^f, bingo.

I've spent 30 years developing muscle memory to hit the control key, 20 years learning to not hit the useless Windows key. Now I have to change all that?

gaaaahhhh!

Anyone know how I can switch the stupid assed Winblows key back to ctrl Where It Belongs?

When I said a couple days ago the only thing keeping me from running Linux was TurboTax, that's no longer true. This afternoon I finally got Thunderbird 90% working. A lot of subfolders didn't make it over, haven't yet looked to see if the messages are gone or are in my inbox, and am busy recreating directories that exist on my old machine but are mt folders on the new one.

We're talking 6 years of filters moving crap to folders, why is porting email always the most painful part of a computer upgrade?

[Jim Venolia]

Maneesh Godbole wrote:Shouldnt this topic be titled "Windows 8 creaks"?

Windows 8 is actually quite nice. It's the UI that sucks huge donkey balls. The underlying OS has a lot of stuff done right. They just blew it by forcing Metro on everybody.

[chris webster]

Jim Venolia wrote:
To me the most damning thing is I was laying in bed trying to think of a reason why I couldn't just install Linux. Turbotax. 1 thing I use that I would miss if I switched to Linux. jeez.

Why not install Linux dual-boot and just use Windows when you have to? That's what I do: I have a Windows laptop (Windows 7 thankfully) but I only log into Windows about once a month to use the UK government's tax software which isn't available on Linux, or to run Windows updates (Windows, the gift that keeps on giving....). The rest of the time I do everything with Linux. I recently converted my old Windows XP netbook to Linux as well, which means my exposure to Windows at home is now down to a couple of hours a month. Unfortunately, my employers still use Windows, but we're only just moving onto W7, so I reckon I'll be retired before they switch to W8+...

[Bear Bibeault]

The virtual machine approach has lots of merit. The only thing I ever need to use Windows for is running various incarnations of IE to test web apps. So I develop on Mac OS X, spending lots of time at the bash prompt but also taking full advantage of GUI programs (IDEs, et al), and run Windows (7 or XP, depending on what creaky version of IE I need to run) in a virtual machine (which I take great pleasure in shutting down when I'm done testing).

Surely there are similar virtual setups available for Linux(es)?

[Frank Silbermann]

Jelle Klap wrote:
I absolutely agree that desktops and laptops have been superseded by tablets, and to a lesser extent smartphones, in some key areas where functionality overlaps.
That still leaves a huge chunk of the market where laptops and desktops reign supreme, though. I think a very important reason for the decline in laptop/desktop sales is economy, rather than superiority of alternatives.
If all you do is browse "the intarnets" or check your e-mail (does anyone still use that anymore?) a cheaper tablet or smartphone (or both) is sufficient.

I do not consider a smartphone suitable for _writing_ e-mail, nor for participating in discussions on message boards. I detest the keyboards on laptops due to keys being in the wrong place and the inaccuracy of the thumb mouse; I cannot imagine that typing on a tablet could be anything but worse.

However, I bought my home PC twelve years ago. I put Linux on it when malware destroyed its old operating system and I was faced with the prospect of having to buy it again.

[Bear Bibeault]

Frank Silbermann wrote:I do not consider a smartphone suitable for _writing_ e-mail, nor for participating in discussions on message boards.

That may be true for our generation, but watch anyone under 40 interact with a phone keyboard. We stink of the tar pits.







[Major presumption that you're over 40.]

[chris webster]

Bear Bibeault wrote:Surely there are similar virtual setups available for Linux(es)?

VIrtualBox is available for Linux and Windows host systems, so you can set up a Windows VM on a Linux box or vice versa.

[Anayonkar Shivalkar]

Well, IMHO, it might be that most of us are thinking Windows 8 as 'better version of Windows 7' - and whereas, in reality, it is totally different version?

I've never used Windows 8, but yes, I agree that if it supports non-touchscreen machines, then they(Microsoft) should have provided proper help about how to do stuff without touchscreen.

But apart from that, it might be that we have not given 'enough' time to it - just saying - when I first saw Unity desktop from Ubuntu, my first reactions were similar, but when I started to use it continuously (especially 12.04 onwards), I understood that Unity is not that bad, in fact, I can do lot of things very quickly and conveniently than I do in other desktop environments(I gave up on Unity and went back to Linux Mint primarily because of their privacy settings - especially after 13.10).

To give another example - I am not at all comfortable with touchscreen devices (my mobile don't have touchscreen) - but then I don't need it. I just got an iPad mini (which is first touchscreen tablet and first Apple product I'm using), and I'm having horrible times with it (all this with Apple product - which, I believe, is having a good reputation of user friendliness). Later on, I learned that my most of the issues were I did not understand the Apple ecosystem (iTunes etc.) and I did not understand difference between iPad and a laptop with touchscreen.

We've already discussed about necessities vs facility (that is - Windows 8 is overkill to someone who simply wants to use internet on the go).

We don't hear much complaints about Windows 7, and in my opinion, the major factor is - Windows Vista. Vista had lot of issues. But apart from that, people somehow got habitual to 'that sort of UI'. When those issues were fixed (in Win 7), we were already aware of how to use that UI and most of us liked Windows 7.
If Windows 7 (without any issues) had been released right after Windows XP, we would have had lot of troubles getting adjusted to it.

All I'm trying to say is - maybe we are asking wrong questions? (while using iPad, my first question was - where is my home directory )

P.S. I'm not a Windows fan (at all) and I did not buy iPad(mini) I'm using
P.P.S. If 8 out of 10 users are asking wrong questions, then product owner (i.e. Microsoft) ought to provide ample help.

[chris webster]

Anayonkar Shivalkar wrote: I just got an iPad mini (which is first touchscreen tablet and first Apple product I'm using), and I'm having horrible times with it (all this with Apple product - which, I believe, is having a good reputation of user friendliness). ..

I don't want to divert this thread into (yet another) Apple vs. Android vs. Windows flame war, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't get the hang of the "intuitive" interface on the iPad. Apple gear *looks* great, and I still drool over the ludicrously expensive but rather lovely MacBooks in my local Apple store, but I am constantly surprised how difficult I find it to use my wife's iPhone or iPad. She bought into Apple before I'd got my Android phone/tablet, so I didn't have any previous touch-screen experience to unlearn, I just couldn't get the hang of the iThings. My wife seems to have no problems, but I've always found my Android touchscreen gadgets much more "intuitive".

Maybe some of us just pre-adapted to Apple/Android/Windows 8 or whatever? Or maybe I'm just too old - still can't work my video recorder...

[Jim Venolia]

How about Windows 8 Annoyances That Are Downright Stupid

1) Move your cursor anywhere near the right edge of the screen and the charms menu pops up. Oh, you had an IDE over there and was aiming for 'help'? Don't care.
2) Touch your touchpad too far right and move your thumb left. Hey, I was wondering how to get to the charms menu! Thanks Ballmer!
3) Oh, you have trouble distinguishing a light blue scrollbar against a white background? Your fault for getting old and letting your eyes deteriorate.
4) Why would you want to change the color scheme? Our crack UI team of 20-somethings have pHDs and stuff, they know what they're doing.

I've figured out how to fix the other couple dozen stupid annoyances.

[Maneesh Godbole]

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