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looking for suggestion on whether at this stage I should stay in current job or switch job?

 
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I am looking for some suggestion regarding my carrier. I work as senior software engineer in a top company in India.I have 6 years experience on

Java. I am working in this organisation since last 3 years and my package is exactly the same as 3 years back at the time I had joined

this company. ( Rs 6 Lakh PA)

Things I am happy about in this company:
- Good treatement from most of the people I have interacted with in this company. Its better than at previous companies.Since this is a

big comany every one talks with lot of manners and in good way most of the times which matters for me.

- Good work life balance:
This company gives importance to work life balance and since last 3 years there has been hardly days when I have come to work on a

weekend.

- Here a lot of people get chance to go onsite.


Things that I am confused about:

- My package of 6 Lakh PA I think might not be bad at this stage.Suppose I spend 6 years in this company. My package at that time with 9

yrs exp would be near about my current package (considering the current rate). So at aroung 10 years exp I at this rate would end up with

package of approximately Rs 6.5 L PA. At that stage will I have to start looking for new job? In India it is easier to switch job when you

have less than 6-7 years experience.So is it advisable to switch now only?

- Some people say that in java one can earn a lot of money compared to dot net ,testing etc and if one does not it is like wasting the
chance.
 
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Not getting a raise at all in three years is suspicious. Did your company have a salary freeze where nobody got a raise the last three years? IF not, I recommend talking to your manager about what you are doing that they aren't happy with.

As far as whether to switch, what do you value more? Personally, I value not working on the weekends over more pay.
 
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Hi Satyaprakash ,

I totally agree with Jeanne.

Is it that nobody (or extremely small amount of employees) is getting salary rise?

If yes (i.e. looks like budget freeze), have you given a thought for onsite opportunity? It is also a good way to earn nice amount of money.

Maybe you should discuss with your manager about future prospects in term of salary. If its not very promising (i.e. salary hikes won't be there or will be very little), then I believe its time to switch because:

1) If you have much less salary package than your experience - then it might act against you in your next job interview.
2) Who knows - in your next job, you might get good work-life balance and good salary

Finally - its totally upto you (and your priorities).

I hope this helps.

All The Best!
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Jeanne Boyarsky wrote

Did your company have a salary freeze where nobody got a raise the last three years? IF not, I recommend talking to your manager about what you are doing that they aren't happy with.



It is not a case that nobody got a raise(many people got) but when I talked to 2 -3 people who are leaving the company their reason was they no change in salary. Some people take emotional decision when they feel hurt that they got zero hike despite good or reasonable work. However I am the one who likes to analyse the pros and cons before deciding on anything. When I talked with people who have spent long time 6-8 years in this company most people say that their salary looked good when they joined the company but over the period of time say 6-8 years the salary increased very little or no increase sometimes and as a result now the salary looks low as compared to number of years.

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote


As far as whether to switch, what do you value more? Personally, I value not working on the weekends over more pay



Here it has been good work life balance. There have been activities apart from work, learning sessions e.t.c. Since I had joined here after working in a small company I had found a lot of change. Here most of the people are mannered and nice to talk too (In last 3 years I interacted with quite a number of people here) and in most of the projects here one can work at our pace (mostly the deadlines are reasonable as compared to my previous company). I value work life balance and good people to interact with more than money. I am not looking just at today but few years down the line too.Suppose I spend next 5 years here. So after end of 5 years my salary may be little more than what it is now. Will that be ok?
 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:So after end of 5 years my salary may be little more than what it is now. Will that be ok?


That's up to you. I think it is. As long as you have enough money to meet your obligations, I think other things should be priorities. Many people disagree.

I'd be more concerned about the "no increase" thing though. Often when some people get an increase and others don't, there are two reasons:
1) You are overpaid now (which doesn't sound like is the case with you)
2) They don't think you are doing enough. This one is something to worry about if true.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Jeanne Boyarsky wrote

I'd be more concerned about the "no increase" thing though. Often when some people get an increase and others don't, there are two reasons:
1) You are overpaid now (which doesn't sound like is the case with you)
2) They don't think you are doing enough. This one is something to worry about if true.



Managers keep changing. I have worked with so many managers in these 3 years.It may be one of the reasons but I do not say that this must be the reason because lot of people must be having different managers.During the second year, my manager gave me very good feedback in appraisal. When I got no change, I called him up and he said "I had given you good remarks but you know it happens in companies and it goes to higher level then it gets changed. He said "you have been in this company since some time so you must be knowing that such things happen".

Then my manager changed. When I discussed this with my new manager, he said you are doing good job only and should continue to do so but regarding salary hike its not in our hands.
 
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My package of 6 Lakh PA I think might not be bad at this stage.Suppose I spend 6 years in this company. My package at that time with 9

yrs exp would be near about my current package (considering the current rate). So at aroung 10 years exp I at this rate would end up with

package of approximately Rs 6.5 L PA. At that stage will I have to start looking for new job?



Unfortunately it does not work that way. You've been in the industry for 6 years. So I presume you know that it doesn't work that way. Organizations need to see that growth and maturity in employees with the increase in their experience and they need to see why retaining us and keeping us happy is important -- I'd like to believe that it applies to all the workplaces unless there is some serious economic recession going on. It is also very hard for organizations to bring in a new employee or to let an old employee go. So when organizations start treating employees or specific employees differently, it's time for the employees to actually reflect on things, speak with their supervisors to get to know the root cause of the problem etc. That's what I think.

Others might disagree with me on this, but I also believe that if after every few weeks I have second thoughts about working at my workplace and I've tried all the options ( I'd like to believe that the good thing is that a lot of things are within the control of the employee ) to get things work in a way that keeps me motivated and happy and it still hasn't worked, it is probably for the best to change my job. No change is easy. For us. For them. But sometimes such changes are for the best.

No, I'm not suggesting that you quit. But I think that if you know the root cause of the problem, it's good to fix it. But if fixing it has not worked and is likely not going to work, it might not be such a bad idea to get rid of the problem.

In India it is easier to switch job when you

have less than 6-7 years experience. So is it advisable to switch now only?


I think we must change our job only when there is a good reason to do so and we are ready for that change and we think that we've found a good opportunity.
I'd like to think that making yourself competent enough to substantiate the experience often suffices. That is hard sometimes.
I am not saying it is easy for me. But that is what a professional could try to achieve for himself/herself.

I am not looking just at today but few years down the line too.Suppose I spend next 5 years here. So after end of 5 years my salary may be little more than what it is now. Will that be ok?




Next 5 years here doing what? Working on what?

Here a lot of people get chance to go onsite.


If yes (i.e. looks like budget freeze), have you given a thought for onsite opportunity? It is also a good way to earn nice amount of money.


I have slightly different views here. Onsite opportunities are good for onsite experience. They are good if the idea is to interact and work with people working in other countries. Also in a lot of companies, the quality work happens at the head quarters and you might get a chance to interact directly with the product owners, sales team, architects etc. So it is good for that reason. But whether it might be an opportunity to earn a better pay really depends.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Chan Ag wrote

Unfortunately it does not work that way. You've been in the industry for 6 years. So I presume you know that it doesn't work that way. Organizations need to see that growth and maturity in employees with the increase in their experience and they need to see why retaining us and keeping us happy is important -- I'd like to believe that it applies to all the workplaces unless there is some serious economic recession going on. It is also very hard for organizations to bring in a new employee or to let an old employee go. So when organizations start treating employees or specific employees differently, it's time for the employees to actually reflect on things, speak with their supervisors to get to know the root cause of the problem etc. That's what I think.



I heard that each year they think about hike for that year only. So do they also consider what that this person had been in company for so long and his salary did not increase much so since he did good work let us increase his salary to make it fine with standards. I thought they do not consider all these things and just give some little hike they can give on previous salary. I have spent 3 years. I at end of 5th year they suddenly wake up and increase my salary considering the overall thing then also it would be okay with me but the question is do they consider this as I heard companies consider only a year while giving hikes and not factors such as how long the person has been with them?


Anayonkar Shivalkar wrote

Maybe you should discuss with your manager about future prospects in term of salary.




Managers keep changing. I have worked with so many managers in these 3 years.It may be one of the reasons but I do not say that this must be the reason because lot of people must be having different managers.During the second year, my manager gave me very good feedback in appraisal. When I got no change, I called him up and he said "I had given you good remarks but you know it happens in companies and it goes to higher level then it gets changed. He said "you have been in this company since some time so you must be knowing that such things happen".

Then my manager changed. When I discussed this with my new manager, he said you are doing good job only and should continue to do so but regarding salary hike its not in our hands.



 
Chan Ag
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I heard that each year they think about hike for that year only. So do they also consider what that this person had been in company for so long and his salary did not increase much so since he did good work let us increase his salary to make it fine with standards. I thought they do not consider all these things and just give some little hike they can give on previous salary. I have spent 3 years. I at end of 5th year they suddenly wake up and increase my salary considering the overall thing then also it would be okay with me but the question is do they consider this as I heard companies consider only a year while giving hikes and not factors such as how long the person has been with them?



Actually those questions can best be answered by your company HR. Personally I couldn't care less about what they consider and I think you too shouldn't. Even if they consider things that you'd want them to consider, if you don't see it documented in your records, it's no good even though you are ok with a correction after a few years. I said that just because you mentioned you'd be ok with that sort of a thing. It's good to see only what they show you. Trying to see beyond -- it's not professional. For that sort of a thing to work in a professional setting, it has to be a mutual thing. If only one side keeps on adjusting, that sort of a model is bound to fail. I couldn't care less about what they think. If they didn't say it, they didn't mean it.

I think good organizations have strong HR policies. If an employee's salary is not at par with the company's standard for that employee's skills and experience, the managers have to explain such things to the HR. At least that is what I have seen -- that is what the HR guys always say ( No I have never had to question these things but HR guys generally keep telling us about the good policies they have in place ). At my previous workplace there used to be frequent market corrections. Before announcements of promotions or a major org change, the HRs and VPs always try to keep employees aware of what is about to come and why just so people don't go in a knee jerk reaction mode and they are in general ok with things. Does your company have a performance appraisal portal? Is whatever your manager says also written in your records -- like you performed well etc. Of course you can see only that part. But it is important that there is a record of such things.

I think companies consider a lot of things while deciding on increments -- the compensation bracket you fall in, your current compensation, your performance, your skills and how you could be utilized and how you could add value in the coming quarter/year, are you already sort of not unhappy and ok with your compensation ( Yeah, that's weird. I just realized that it matters to be unhappy in some places. Some organizations expect you to demand promotions which is funny but I've heard that '(s)he is happy, so (s)he won't resign' thing ), and anything else that matters at your workplace.
 
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It sounds like you like the company, you like your work, and you like your working environment and general working conditions e.g. regular hours. But you don't like the fact that your pay has not changed in 3 years and you're worried it won't change in future.

If they gave you a pay rise would you stop wondering if you should leave? Or do you have other reasons for leaving?

If the only problem is your pay, you could talk to your manager and explain that you are concerned that your pay has not changed in 3 years. Prepare your reasons for why they should pay you more - you now have more experience/responsibility, you have made a significant contribution to projects etc. Ask your manager why this is not reflected in your current pay, and what you, your manager and the company can do to improve the situation. If they are helpful, then stick around for a while and see if you can get a pay increase. If they are unhelpful, or if there is simply no chance of a pay increase, start looking for another job that suits your needs, both financially and in terms of working environment and conditions.

But don't sit there worrying about how you or your company might feel 3 years from now. If you're not happy with something now, change it now.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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chris webster

If they gave you a pay rise would you stop wondering if you should leave? Or do you have other reasons for leaving?



Absolutely No. This is a nice place to work.



I have heard one manager(who spent several years here) saying as a joke "Here love increases not money". I wonder if thats just a joke or some truth too came out in a joke..


I wonder should a person work at the maxim salary he can get or should keep working where he enjoys.
 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:I wonder should a person work at the maxim salary he can get or should keep working where he enjoys.


Both of course!

But most workplaces are not like that, sadly.

If I were you, I would think about how much money it would take to solve this problem at your current workplace. If it's a lot, then you're probably not going to achieve it in your current workplace, so you'll need to think hard about that trade-off between a good working environment and good pay.

But if a relatively small increase would solve the problem for you, talk to your manager and simply explain that you're concerned about the fact your pay has stagnated for 3 years and you need to think about the future. Ask them what you and they can do to improve your salary position e.g. over the next 6 months. If there is room for improvement, give them a chance to work something out for you. If not, then you can decide if/when you want to look for a better-paid job. Either way, they will know this is an issue for you, which may encourage them to find a way to solve the problem rather than risk losing you in a year or two.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Thanks everyone for the inputs. Now, I now feel my decision may come down to which of the below statements is correct:

1)Amongst people who are at my stage(6 years experience),those who do not change companies for long periods (e.g 6- 8 years) , earn a lot lesser than the ones who change companies at regular intervals.

Or

2) No a person staying for long periods in a company may earn almost same or little lesser amount of money overall(Not major difference).
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Below is an article published in forbes which had made me confused about staying in current company(which I like) or moving on:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/
 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:Below is an article published in forbes which had made me confused about staying in current company(which I like) or moving on:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/




Hmmm... Read the article. And then reread the article... And still have reservations on how the conclusions are drawn.

Yes. I agree that pay raises due to job changes are higher than yearly pay raises. Of course, they are. How is a company supposed to woo an employee from another company if they can't even match the annual pay raise? This makes total sense.

However, how can this lead to the conclusion drawn by the article? These are two things that directly affect each other. And people don't change jobs every year. If you get a great pay raise due to a job change, the expectation on you is higher, and hence, unlikely to get a good raise for the next few years. If your salary is higher than average, it is difficult to change jobs to get a better offer. If your performance is so-so, you are also less likely to be able to find another job -- and have to accept the raise you get. etc.

The article implies that the two are a choice. It isn't. Someone who gets mediocre raises (due to mediocre performance), may not be able to find another job. Also, someone who is overpaid will find it difficult to get a raise regardless of whether they change jobs or not. At best, this trick (of getting higher raises) may work once or twice in a career -- and almost everyone changes jobs more than twice during a career these days.

Henry
 
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Yes, there's a definite cost to changing jobs frequently. At some point you don't get considered any more because you switched jobs too frequently. Better to resolve things where you are now if possible, especially since you are otherwise happy there. And "if possible" may mean that you have to get out of your comfort zone.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Ulf Dittmer says

Yes, there's a definite cost to changing jobs frequently. At some point you don't get considered any more because you switched jobs too frequently. Better to resolve things where you are now if possible, especially since you are otherwise happy there. And "if possible" may mean that you have to get out of your comfort zone.



It is not that I am craving for more and more money. Only thing is that I am thinking for 5 years ahead. Today my package looks fine but say after 5 years salary increases at the normal rate here...then my experience would be 11 years then and salary would be around 7 lakhs which would not look good.

 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote: which would not look good.


Look good to whom? That's they key question here.
 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:It is not that I am craving for more and more money. Only thing is that I am thinking for 5 years ahead. Today my package looks fine but say after 5 years salary increases at the normal rate here...then my experience would be 11 years then and salary would be around 7 lakhs which would not look good.


If you're happy in your current job on your current salary right now, and you don't have any clear idea of where you want to go instead, why are you worrying about what might happen five years from now? Nobody has any idea what will happen in five years' time, so you might as well focus on what you want to do in your career over the next year or so. If there are things you can start doing now to improve your salary/career prospects a year from now e.g. acquire new skills, take on new responsibilities, move into a different part of your organisation, pester your manager for a raise, then start doing them now. Review your situation regularly e.g. every year, and decide when it's time to move and what you will want to look for in a new job.

In the meantime, all this anxiety and paralysis by analysis doesn't seem to be doing you any good.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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chris webster wrote

why are you worrying about what might happen five years from now? Nobody has any idea what will happen in five years' time, so you might as well focus on what you want to do in your career over the next year or so. If there are things you can start doing now to improve your salary/career prospects a year from now e.g. acquire new skills, take on new responsibilities, move into a different part of your organisation, pester your manager for a raise, then start doing them now. Review your situation regularly e.g. every year, and decide when it's time to move and what you will want to look for in a new job.

In the meantime, all this anxiety and paralysis by analysis doesn't seem to be doing you any good.



Yes, thats correct. I am thinking of 5 years ahead because on another thread in this forum, I had got one useful advice from Jayesh Lalwani to always think where you would be 5 years after taking a particular path.
 
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Where you want to be in 5 years in your career is not the same question as where you want to be in 5 years in terms of salary. Optimizing for one does not necessarily imply optimizing for the other.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Jeanne Boyarsky

Look good to whom? That's they key question here.



As you said it is specific to the person. Just curious to know "Generally, do people who stay in same company for many many years earn a lot lesser than others or there is only a slight difference?". I know it would depend again on person to person but am asking the case for most of the people.
 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:Jeanne Boyarsky

Look good to whom? That's they key question here.



As you said it is specific to the person. Just curious to know "Generally, do people who stay in same company for many many years earn a lot lesser than others or there is only a slight difference?". I know it would depend again on person to person but am asking the case for most of the people.


I really think it depends. On the person and the company.

In your company, I think it is likely job hoppers earn more. That's why I said "look good to whom". It's more important what you think than what some external party thinks.
 
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I have talked with many senior people in IT profession and some of them (not all) have a school of thought which says that let us earn the maximum we can earn fast because in IT one never knows when one is fired from any company.For this reason they say that instead of being loyal to a company keep switching and earn a good salary over the years fast and keep a backup profession as anyone can be fired from job in IT profession anytime. So earn lot of money fast and invest in something along with keeping a backup profession for later life.

So I get confused whether to stay at current company and have a life outside work too Or just earn the maximum one can earn even if it means keep sitting in office till late hours and working on weekends.
 
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I agree with parts of that. One can be fired at any time. (Which is true in many industries, not just IT.) I agree with importance of saving money as a cushion.

I don't have a backup profession in mind. I like application development. I like technology. If I was fired today, I would look for another job doing application development. I have a current skillset. If I was fired "later in life", I don't know what I'd want to do. It might not even exist yet. Technology changes too quickly for that.

I do not agree with the earning the maximum at the expense of sitting in the office til late hours and working frequently on weekends. Yes, this attitude probably means I get paid less than someone who "donates" all their time to the company. But I'm very productive when I'm actually working. And free time is more important to me. All that time is something the extra money can't buy. Keep in mind that as programmers, we earn a lot more than the average person.

These are different philosophies. I recognize mine isn't as popular. And there is nothing wrong with other school of though. This is why it has to be a personal opinion. It depends on your values and situation in life. One piece of advise: ask your family and friends what they think. They don't need to be technical people. These are people that know your values.
 
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Jeanne Boyarsky wrote

One piece of advise: ask your family and friends what they think. They don't need to be technical people. These are people that know your values.



During talks when I mention to them that on changing job I can earn approx this much they get excited and happy for obvious reason but they might not be knowing the hidden cost associated with it which may be extra hours at work or weekends.It means why would surely like but still it is my life and I would be the person sitting in front of the monitor for hours and hours not them.


When I had decided to do engineering I thought I will work after this in some good company and earn some decent salary little more than what normally people get. But I had thought this much only . I never knew that it would be a never ending race after money where one has to grow and grow and keep growing and carving more and more money. By this I came to know I am rather a simple person with simple expectations from life(a little more money than normal) and not made for this rat race but what to do everyone has to run and run.
 
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Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:
During talks when I mention to them that on changing job I can earn approx this much they get excited and happy for obvious reason but they might not be knowing the hidden cost associated with it which may be extra hours at work or weekends.It means why would surely like but still it is my life and I would be the person sitting in front of the monitor for hours and hours not them.



I think that you already answered your own question. You don't believe your family response is going to cover your specific needs, and that only you can judge it completely.

And since complete strangers on the internet is ... even less likely to understand your specific needs than your family. I think that it is fair to say that you need to come to the conclusion yourself.

Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:
When I had decided to do engineering I thought I will work after this in some good company and earn some decent salary little more than what normally people get. But I had thought this much only . I never knew that it would be a never ending race after money where one has to grow and grow and keep growing and carving more and more money. By this I came to know I am rather a simple person with simple expectations from life(a little more money than normal) and not made for this rat race but what to do everyone has to run and run.



Like I said, I think you already decided. You seem to be looking for some agreement -- even though you know that it is not very useful coming from strangers.

Anyway, if it is helpful ... I say liking what you are doing is better than liking the money. Good luck.

Henry
 
Chan Ag
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Sorry again for jumping into the conversation but switching the job happens much later.

The first step is to brush up on things you have worked on and learn the things that you might not have worked on but that you should know anyway, the second step is to apply for jobs ( they could also be internal openings at your workplace ), the third thing is to be shortlisted, fourth thing is clearing the interview, fifth thing is what we are currently discussing. And sometimes steps 2-5 might become immaterial after you start enjoying working on the step 1. It might just automatically fix things that need to be fixed. That is just my opinion.

Someone has in some response mentioned that to fix things you may need to explore things out of your comfort zone. And I really, really agree with that. I think every once in a while, every software developer has to do it. I mean we chose software development knowing this. Right.

The good thing about learning anything in Java and the other open source technologies is that they are open source. Most of what you need to learn is easily available. And there are so many helpful resources and communities to help and guide you. So you don't have to depend on some selfish project manager ( most of them are nice but there are also bad project managers .. :-) So yeah, I mean them ) to give you the tools you require to bring in that sense of achievement into your professional life. Isn't that too good a thing. It depends on you. Just you. And all it takes is just your wish. I mean just that...

When I had decided to do engineering I thought I will work after this in some good company and earn some decent salary little more than what normally people get. But I had thought this much only . I never knew that it would be a never ending race after money where one has to grow and grow and keep growing and carving more and more money. By this I came to know I am rather a simple person with simple expectations from life(a little more money than normal) and not made for this rat race but what to do everyone has to run and run



Nope, it's a race only if that's what you make of it. I think a lot of people just enjoy software development and learning new things... A lot of people who are software developers are not just blindly running after money. No one 'has to' run in the rat race, if that is what it is. We ( I believe most of us ) work for only 8-9 hours a day on 'average'. That's in no way running after money.
 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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I too think so. Actually 'money' is not the thing that attracts me towards it but something 'unfair' is a thing which repels me.

After 5 years from now the most possible scenario may be something which I may feel unfair.When I started my career as a fresher ofcourse, that time freshers in India used to get approximately a package of 2 lakh. I worked hard over the years developed skillset , switched company to finally reach a package of 6 Lakh.Nowdays freshers get 3.5 as times have changed. If I stay in this company for 5 years more, my package most probably would be around 6.5 lakh. After 5 years would come a time when freshers would be getting 6 lakh. So there may come a time when my salary is equal to salary of a fresher. Wouldn't that look 'Unfair'?


 
Satyaprakash Joshii
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Jeanne Boyarsky says

Keep in mind that as programmers, we earn a lot more than the average person.



Yes that is true but I want to know whether it applies to everyone? Does it also apply to many developers who work in India and their salary has increased only a little over the years.?
 
Ulf Dittmer
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For this reason they say that instead of being loyal to a company keep switching and earn a good salary over the years fast and keep a backup profession as anyone can be fired from job in IT profession anytime. So earn lot of money fast and invest in something along with keeping a backup profession for later life.


This line of reasoning is completely messed up. If you follow that, then yes - you might need a backup profession because you made a bad name all over the IT/software industry, and word got around, so now nobody will hire you any more. (See my earlier post on that.) And because of the frequent job changes you will have a lot of extra stress in your life (which -in addition to the short term consequences- may well shorten your life expectancy, and thus diminish the time in which you will enjoy that extra money).

Does it also apply to many developers who work in India and their salary has increased only a little over the years?


You can't generalize like that. Somehow you seem to be expecting salary increases that are decoupled from your personal performance - they're not, they will be highly tailored to you and the company you work for. If a company is great to work for, then it's reasonable to expect lower salary increases, because that is a form of compensation in itself. If a company is nasty to work for, employees may expect higher salaries and/or higher increases to compensate for that. If you do great, it's reasonable to expect raises, if you don't, it's not.
 
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