This week's book giveaway is in the Agile and Other Processes forum.
We're giving away four copies of Real-World Software Development: A Project-Driven Guide to Fundamentals in Java and have Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma & Richard Warburton on-line!
See this thread for details.
Win a copy of Real-World Software Development: A Project-Driven Guide to Fundamentals in Java this week in the Agile and Other Processes forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Paul Clapham
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Knute Snortum
  • Bear Bibeault
master stewards:
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Junilu Lacar
garden masters:
  • Ron McLeod
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Moores
  • Carey Brown
  • salvin francis
gardeners:
  • Tim Holloway
  • Piet Souris
  • Frits Walraven

Recruiter comes with very high salary

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Do you know LinkedIn? It is a board for business contacts and CVs. My CV is up there. So sometimes I get noticed through LinkedIn by a recruiter. I am presently earning 50.000 e. a year. She sends me a mail with a job that would be 80.000 to 90.000 euro a year. I am not sure how to react, but I think if they directly talk about a salary far beyond what I think is normal, it is probably a false vacancy, just a bait to get connected, or the job is that uncertain, I will be fired after a month. Or I have been heavily underpaid, for decades. But 90.000 euro a year for a senior software developer, looks like fake to me. Right?
 
Bartender
Posts: 2407
36
Scala Python Oracle Postgres Database Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, LinkedIn does generate a fair amount of recruitment spam. But what have you got to lose by talking to them? If they're fake, you lose maybe half an hour of exchanging recruitment BS on the phone. If they're for real, maybe you get a shot at a better-paid job. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, well I just thought if it is too good to be true, it is mostly false, and I have rejected them. Or rather told them the salary is that idiotic I don't believe it is a stable position. I had no reaction back so far. Or maybe it is free lance, not salary, then I can understand the sum. That is a total different ball game. But from what I understood it just salary and an income based on an employer contract.
 
Rancher
Posts: 43011
76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The way you describe it, it sounds as if your interactions with recruiters have been rather black-and-white as far as your behavior goes. Assuming that impression is correct, I advise a much more flexible approach.
 
author
Posts: 23867
141
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ulf Dittmer wrote:The way you describe it, it sounds as if your interactions with recruiters have been rather black-and-white as far as your behavior goes. Assuming that impression is correct, I advise a much more flexible approach.



Agreed. Also, what makes LinkedIn any different? There are good recruiters and bad recruiters -- and they should not be judged based on how they contacted you. Recruiters, like other members of your professional network, is based interaction, a history, and earned trust.

Henry
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well Ulf, you are right. I don't like recruiters. I don't know the situation in your country, but when I got off college, there were no recruiters. You would apply directly to the company and their HR department. In the last two decades, recruiters got between them. They obfuscate what the position is really about. They, sorry to be negative, nag with positions you don't want. They place fake adverts just to get your CV, and they have convinced companies to use them instead of putting an add out like in the old days. I am not really convinced what the use of that profession is. At least for me as a candidate. I will try to be more positive and flexible. But that is only because I need the job, and these guys and girls have 'hijacked' the vacancies. Meanwhile, if I have a choice, I apply directly with the company. Also, if I look at my recent past, I got my present job through a pushy recruiter and I am not happy with it. But the two jobs before that, I have found myself, and I was more or less content with them. And I am not being black and white, it is even worse, I am being just black about recruiters. ;)

But thanks for the advice, I know I cannot afford myself to be that way, now I am really looking for a job, you're right.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Henry Wong wrote:Recruiters, like other members of your professional network



I don't even consider them as member of my network. I only see them as an obstacle or an impediment, not sure how to translate that to English. In Dutch it is 'sta in de weg', which is literally 'stand in my way'. I by default remove them from my contact list, as soon as I have the job. I only have contact with them from the moment I apply until the moment I sign the contract.
 
Ulf Dittmer
Rancher
Posts: 43011
76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I only see them as an obstacle or an impediment


That is perhaps not the best way of looking at people who are in a position to help you find a job. Not staying in touch afterwards is normal, if the interaction wasn't altogether to your satisfaction.
 
chris webster
Bartender
Posts: 2407
36
Scala Python Oracle Postgres Database Linux
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well, this is just my perspective, Jan, but looking at your recent posts you sound like a man who really doesn't want an IT job at all, but who might be happier as a teacher. Here in the UK there is a real shortage of teachers with computer skills, especially now the government has bought into the idea that everybody has to learn to code. There are various routes to qualify as a teacher and the profession is keen to welcome people with experience of the world outside the classroom, so you can start training and working part-time in schools and being paid a small salary, or at least have your fees paid while you do so. Are there similar opportunities in the Netherlands?

If so, maybe you should start talking nicely to the recruiters offering you highly-paid jobs, take one of those jobs for a couple of years to save some cash, then go and do something that you might find more fulfilling. Either way, it sounds like you need some kind of plan to get out of your current rut.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ulf Dittmer wrote:That is perhaps not the best way of looking at people who are in a position to help you find a job.



Yes, I know that! But they only are in that position for a negative reason. Because they pull jobs from companies, and they pull CVs from employees. And to such an extent that both parties, companies and programmers, now do not approach each other directly anymore. I honestly think the job market was better off, if they did not exist.

Anyway, I have been a good boy. I have asked her to keep her eye open for other jobs, although I don't think I am qualified for the job she offered me.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

chris webster wrote:doesn't want an IT job at all



No, that is putting it too extreme. What would be ideal is that I would have a steady reasonably paid job as software programmer, and a part time extra job as a teacher. But my experience at this moment is that IT jobs are so demanding that you have to give them complete focus. I do not hate IT, but I do not like it when I only do that, and they ask for a sort of genius that knows everything since he does not do anything but IT. Like my present colleague and competitor that has two dozen computers at home and automated his own apartment with self made hardware. Also what frustrates me in IT is that it is very volatile. Now they want you and you have a skill they need bad. Tomorrow the project is finished, the job is out sourced, and you are nobody. Love me, hate me. At least that is my experience.

And about the teaching possibilities, there are courses to become a teacher in the Netherlands, subsidized yes. But it takes a few years and then you are a full time teacher, I think. I would like to teach a few days a week, not full time.

Anyway, my first an primarily rut is not to get unemployed in the near future, being the 15th of January, that is the end of my contract.
 
Ulf Dittmer
Rancher
Posts: 43011
76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:Because they pull jobs from companies, and they pull CVs from employees.


Not always - companies may engage recruiters for positions that they can't find candidates for otherwise. Here in Germany it's hard to find qualified developers, so recruiters are frequently used for those positions.

And to such an extent that both parties, companies and programmers, now do not approach each other directly anymore.


Hm, that would seem to be specific to the job market you're looking in, then. Over here, plenty of jobs are listed on jobs sites, to which you would then apply directly to companies. I have a hard time believing similar sites wouldn't exist in your neck of the woods.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ulf Dittmer wrote:Hm, that would seem to be specific to the job market you're looking in, then. Over here, plenty of jobs are listed on jobs sites, to which you would then apply directly to companies. I have a hard time believing similar sites wouldn't exist in your neck of the woods.



There are a few ways. I know one site that is specialized in direct contact. It even advertises with the slogan, "See who your employer is", since adds of recruitment agencies hide their customer. Most jobs on normal search sites are from agencies though. I am using my contacts in LinkedIn, ex colleagues. Also at LinkedIn there are jobs directly posted by the company. And I look at company websites directly. Hospitals for example, since I have been specialized in medical software for the last ten years. If you have any advice how to avoid the 'recruiter devil', I am all ears.

By the way, sorry I am in general a bit negative lately. It seems you guys have become my venting possibility. But it is not going that bad. I had two interviews so far. I messed up the first one, own fault, I did not prepare enough. I think I got really close with the second already. They told me they liked me, but will proceed with another candidate for now, but approach me again if that does not work out for them.
 
Henry Wong
author
Posts: 23867
141
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:

Henry Wong wrote:Recruiters, like other members of your professional network



I don't even consider them as member of my network. I only see them as an obstacle or an impediment, not sure how to translate that to English. In Dutch it is 'sta in de weg', which is literally 'stand in my way'. I by default remove them from my contact list, as soon as I have the job. I only have contact with them from the moment I apply until the moment I sign the contract.



Ulf Dittmer wrote:

I only see them as an obstacle or an impediment


That is perhaps not the best way of looking at people who are in a position to help you find a job. Not staying in touch afterwards is normal, if the interaction wasn't altogether to your satisfaction.



Agreed++ with Ulf.

Admittedly, recruiters are a small part of a professional network, as they seem to work for the positions instead of the candidates. This means that unless you are an exact match, you will likely be ignored for that search. So, finding one that remembers you, or keeps you in mind (even if it is to ask for your help) isn't bad to have in your network.

Also, with a large professional network, you should constantly have people in that network who are between jobs. What not have a small, but "proven", set of recruiters that you can refer them to? Or do you not care about helping your professional network?

Henry
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Henry Wong wrote:Also, with a large professional network, you should constantly have people in that network who are between jobs. What not have a small, but "proven", set of recruiters that you can refer them to?



Henry sorry, sorry, lack of English knowledge perhaps, but I just cannot understand this sentence. What is between jobs? They have two jobs and travel between them? And I think the What is the last sentence should be Why? And what is exactly meant with professional network? The ex colleagues you know?
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ah, I think I understand now...

Well the people I know that are unemployed (between jobs) are mostly the office people from administration or a few sales people, and the recruiters are looking for engineers. I presently have no engineers in my network, about 50-100 people in that website, that are looking for a programmer job.

Nevertheless, if a job in administration comes available, I am glad to help of course.
 
Greenhorn
Posts: 2
Tomcat Server Java Linux
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello All,
I think I know what Jan is saying when he describes his dislikes for recruiters. I was once told by a recruiter that I was just a product. I was also once told by a recruiter not to accept a job if the salary was below a certain amount.

I think there a good and bad recruiters out there. They are just not as many as Jan might like.
 
Marshal
Posts: 68014
258
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Welcome to the Ranch
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

osagie uwaifo wrote:I was also once told by a recruiter not to accept a job if the salary was below a certain amount.



Because they get about three times your monthly salary as their pay. So their pay is dependent of your new salary. Now this can be beneficial. But the recruiter that got me here in my present position has put in quite a high salary position. The disadvantage is that then they also expect a lot of you, and if you cannot deliver, you are fired. Now I am not getting fired, but the present position required a whole lot of pure thorough technical knowledge I only superficially had. Leaving me in stress for one and a half years. Also the recruiter guy was really aggressive. He literally called me that much I switched of my mobile. Constantly asking me if I would sign there, and when I would, and telling me not to go to job interviews I already had, that were planned that same week. After half a dozen calls, I started to call him "Bastian 'have you signed yet' <company name>". Now I would give half of my Kingdom to go back in time and see if the other companies that were also interested would have been a better option.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
By the way, another thing about recruiters I do not like is that they always want to call you by phone. I am working, why cant you write an email.? 've Got another one writing something like: I have a role that would suit you. I wont give not any more information about the job. But please give me your mobile phone number. Maybe it's my quirk, but I dont like to be called on the phone, especially when I am trying to solve a difficult problem.
 
Ulf Dittmer
Rancher
Posts: 43011
76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Recruiters understand that people work during the day; just tell them when it suits you, or ask when you can call them. Recruitment is a personal business, though, and recruiters will want to talk directly, which I think is perfectly reasonable - if that's something you're not willing to overcome I would suggest not to work with recruiters.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, that is right. Thanks Ulf. I can understand they want to call me, at some time, but first give me some information. Another reason that I somewhat dislike calling is that I am slightly deaf. Last time I stood outside in the wind and the traffic with my mobile, and the recruiter was talking with colleagues in the same open office room. That was kind off useless. I will try to be nicer to recruiters, nevertheless.
 
Bartender
Posts: 322
24
Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Maybe I'm odd, but I like recruiters. Recruiters are paid a commission based on the salary you agree to at time of hiring. It's in their interest to get the highest salary they can for you. If they can get you an extra $5,000 a year, great! Anything negotiated after the fact, or if the salary is too low, doesn't benefit them.

In theory, they have lots of valuable information that you can use. Many hire over and over for the same companies (if the company is large) and know how much they can command for your skill set based on comparable skill sets. As an individual, you probably only change jobs once every five years (or less). You probably also had no idea how your salary compared to the guys around you, or if the ranges used by your employer was at the tails of the bell curve. Recruiters see hundreds of negotiated contracts a year and know the ranges that their companies are willing to pay.

Also use them to learn what skill sets are hot and what you should touch up on. I had a great chat with one recruiter two weeks ago over tuning up my resume. Cost me nothing for 45 minutes of consultation, and gave me lots of valuable insight I was able to use immediately. I've used others to practice phone interview skills in the past, and then grilled them afterwards on what I did right and wrong.

Does that mean all recruiters are good guys? No, but like most professions that work on commission, the average recruiter is a decent guy who is just trying to feed his kids. And if he isn't decent, word will get around in their industry and employers will stop dealing with him.

Cheers!
Chris
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Chris Barrett wrote:Maybe I'm odd, but I like recruiters.



Okay from what I have understood from this discussion so far, you would be odd in the Netherlands but in other parts of the world they seem to have another idea.


Chris Barrett wrote:
Recruiters are paid a commission based on the salary you agree to at time of hiring. It's in their interest to get the highest salary they can for you. If they can get you an extra $5,000 a year, great! Anything negotiated after the fact, or if the salary is too low, doesn't benefit them.



Yes and now 14 months later, my contract is not getting renewed, and at new possible employers they frown, and I keep on telling I do not need that much.


Chris Barrett wrote:
In theory, they have lots of valuable information that you can use.



Yeah, right. In my perception they hide information. They don't give you the company name and address because that could cost them commission.


Chris Barrett wrote:
Many hire over and over for the same companies (if the company is large) and know how much they can command for your skill set based on comparable skill sets. As an individual, you probably only change jobs once every five years (or less).



Not me, Chris, I was fired a few times, I am not that good I fear.


Chris Barrett wrote:
You probably also had no idea how your salary compared to the guys around you.



I have investigated I know what I am worth. And I know what amount to ask to overcharge, overdemand or how you would call it, and get fired because the employer says I am NOT worth that much money.


Chris Barrett wrote:
Also use them to learn what skill sets are hot and what you should touch up on.



Come on, are you serious!? Some, if not many, do not know the difference between Java and Java-script. Most I have met here in my part of woods, do not know nothing about information science itself. I am sorry, maybe it is different where you are. But I only tolerate them. I try to stay polite for my own good. But I well never like them.


 
Chris Barrett
Bartender
Posts: 322
24
Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Jan,

It sounds like you have some underlining frustrations that are really not the fault of IT recruiters.
I wish you all the best in getting to a happier place.
 
Rancher
Posts: 4492
47
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:Yeah, right. In my perception they hide information. They don't give you the company name and address because that could cost them commission.



Well, as you say, they could lose out. It's a fairly cut-throat business. I get interrogated by agents every time I move contract, since they're always on the lookout for new contacts in different companies. They must get gazumped frequently, which is going to make you hesitant to pass on more information than you have to.

Jan de Boer wrote:
Come on, are you serious!? Some, if not many, do not know the difference between Java and Java-script. Most I have met here in my part of woods, do not know nothing about information science itself. I am sorry, maybe it is different where you are. But I only tolerate them. I try to stay polite for my own good. But I well never like them.



That is my biggest beef. If you're going to be an agent in a particular field then at least learn what some of the terms mean!
I tend to shy away from the dimmer ones. Luckily that's not too much of a strain as they also tend to only have the poorer paid contracts.
 
Henry Wong
author
Posts: 23867
141
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Dave Tolls wrote:

Jan de Boer wrote:
Come on, are you serious!? Some, if not many, do not know the difference between Java and Java-script. Most I have met here in my part of woods, do not know nothing about information science itself. I am sorry, maybe it is different where you are. But I only tolerate them. I try to stay polite for my own good. But I well never like them.



That is my biggest beef. If you're going to be an agent in a particular field then at least learn what some of the terms mean!
I tend to shy away from the dimmer ones. Luckily that's not too much of a strain as they also tend to only have the poorer paid contracts.



First, to qualify a bit... I haven't used a recruiter in many years, so I don't really have a strong opinion. The reasons are, one, I don't change jobs too often, and two, I have been blessed with a strong professional network, who have been very helpful when I found myself unemployed.

Having said that, a few of my professional network, that have been helpful to me, don't know the difference between Java and JavaScript either. Why does it matter? If someone you know, can recommend you, can vouch for you, and is in the position to get you an interview, are you going to turn it down, because that person doesn't know the difference between two technical terms?

Henry
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Chris Barrett wrote:It sounds like you have some underlining frustrations that are really not the fault of IT recruiters.
I wish you all the best in getting to a happier place.



Yes, my apologies! But..

Sure I am not happy at the moment. But the last contract arranged by a recruiter got me into this position. So it is at least partly the fault of thát recruiter. I got talked into a role I could not handle by him, and I am now paying the consequences. I have to explain why I am being thrown out after such a short period, and I have a rather high salary. The latter is by the way confirmed by another recruiter with which I just had a conversation.

Now I know what I have to do, I have to improve my technical knowledge. That is the only way to get out of this bad situation. But you should not worry too much. I think I am able to get acquainted with some new technologies that are in demand, I am working on it.

By the way, I really in doubt what to do here. I could just tell companies I am not that good, and will accept lower pay, but then they think I have no ambition. I cannot tell them, but then they won't hire me because I am too expensive maybe. Or they will hire me for that salary, and I will be thrown out again for the same reason. Or I can just lie about my salary? What can I do here??
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Henry Wong wrote:Having said that, a few of my professional network, that have been helpful to me, don't know the difference between Java and JavaScript either. Why does it matter?



Because you get called about a role you cannot do, by a recruiter you do not know, through the general company phone number this person has found on the Internet.

This is something which is generally happening in the Netherlands, and I know for sure, almost all software engineers hereabouts experience this, and find exasperating. I am somewhat surprised that so many other people find recruiters something positive. For what I know, most colleagues here find them annoying. I have also talked to a girl in Germany and also over there she had the same experience. (By the way. That conversation was part of my study to learn German. Language exchange. I am fluent in German now, but I am afraid that does not help me much.)

 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:Now I know what I have to do, I have to improve my technical knowledge.



By the way, to keep things positive, and to show you guys I am climbing out of the put hole already a little. You never guess. I studied a few things the last weeks. Yesterday I had a job interview and one technical guy asked me a lot of questions. Now I am for sure that two weeks ago I would have failed the interview. But now I could remember a few things I have read lately, and... got a positive feedback on the first interview. I got through the first round now.

So, yes I was a little down lately, but I can learn really fast to..if need be. So really don't worry, and my apologies for being a little negative and down to the ranch. It is never your fault, you help me.
 
Henry Wong
author
Posts: 23867
141
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:
Because you get called about a role you cannot do, by a recruiter you do not know, through the general company phone number this person has found on the Internet.

This is something which is generally happening in the Netherlands, and I know for sure, almost all software engineers hereabouts experience this, and find exasperating. I am somewhat surprised that so many other people find recruiters something positive.



Feel free to completely disagree with me, but a recruiter's job is to maintain relationships. They maintain relationships with the client companies, and they maintain relationships with the candidates.

And maintaining relationships with recruiters (and with colleagues) is generally a two way street. They can't maintain that relationship, if you just tolerate them (or if you find them "exasperating"). Quite frankly, the good recruiters are also very good at reading people -- they quickly know that you are only tolerating that relationship; and they also have lots of other relationships, so can quickly move on to work with candidates whom they like instead.

So, yes, it could be that there are only bad recruiters in your country. Or it could be that all the good recruiters determined that there are more easier / likable candidates to work with.

Again, feel free to disagree.

Henry
 
Chris Barrett
Bartender
Posts: 322
24
Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Henry Wong wrote:Quite frankly, the good recruiters are also very good at reading people -- they quickly know that you are only tolerating that relationship; and they also have lots of other relationships, so can quickly move on to work with candidates whom they like instead.


Henry hit that one out of the ballpark (baseball reference - not sure the football/soccer equivalent. Sorry if it doesn't translate to Dutch ). In finance, that's what we called "reputation risk".

Recruiters are effectively freelance, commission-based, HR managers. I've never been a recruiter, but I've handled HR roles in the past and I've worked in sales. From the company perspective, the recruiter doesn't get paid unless the candidate is hired, so the company is outsourcing at no cost to them their initial HR screening. If the recruiter gives positive feedback about a candidate to the company, you have one up over someone who randomly sends in a CV and hasn't been pre-screened. The last thing any recruiter wants is to have the company come back and say, "Man, I'm never dealing with that recruiter again! He said Mr. X was great, but Mr. X was horrible!". I imagine recruiters also talk to other recruiters about bad candidates they should steer clear of, too.

Often, the HR manager is more afraid about hiring a bad candidate that will impact a team/department negatively than the interviewee is afraid about not being hired. A bad attitude can be far more damaging than a bad coder/salesperson/whatever-role. I can quickly spot someone who is bad at their job through empirical data. The salesperson that hasn't sold anything. The coder that violates regularly the firm's coding conventions. It's much harder to spot someone who is quietly undermining management and team attitude with negative comments.

I'm not saying you have a bad attitude, but I am saying that you need to be careful that you don't project that. Bottomline is recruiters have become part of the industry. You won't be able to turn back the clock. So, you should learn how to deal effectively with them instead of looking at them like a roadblock. I tried to point out in a previous reply some ways you could perhaps use them to your advantage, or view them as an asset instead of a liability. Hopefully that will help. Oh, and I don't need them to know Java from JavaScript. But, I do know they can read and if they see 5 resumes a day looking for JavaScript and 100 resumes a day looking for Java, and those Java jobs have a higher pay range than the JavaScript jobs, that's information I can use.

Regarding your situation, I don't think you should ever lie (that will get around and won't you just end up in the same situation as you are now?). I think you can put a positive light on the comments you've made here - While you've enjoyed aspects of the contract role experiences, you realized it wasn't for you. You like the stability of permanent work, even if that comes with a lower salary than your last role. Your goal is to find a company that provides you with the right fit. You learned a lot about your own strengths and weaknesses during the time with the company. You learned how you can improve on those weaknesses and have a plan on how to improve (and hopefully can show you are acting on that plan). When you do accept such a high level role in the future, you know the expectations already and will be prepared to deal with them.
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well let me first nuance things. There are recruiters I do let work for me. It is not all black. Still I would prefer to have just a list of vacancies, company descriptions and addresses and apply directly to the company. I cannot see much use in the whole recruiter business.

Henry Wong wrote:they also have lots of other relationships, so can quickly move on to work with candidates whom they like instead.



Not really. Here they are known to bother you, also if you do not want another job. We even have a website where you can put them on the blacklist and complain about their pushy behaviour.

http://blacklist-recruiters.nl/

Here it is more that candidates can move quickly to work with recruiters they like instead.



 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Chris Barrett wrote:

Henry Wong wrote:Quite frankly, the good recruiters are also very good at reading people -- they quickly know that you are only tolerating that relationship; and they also have lots of other relationships, so can quickly move on to work with candidates whom they like instead.


Henry hit that one out of the ballpark (baseball reference - not sure the football/soccer equivalent.



Not really. Like said in the previous comment. It are the candidates who can pick recruiters here, not the other way around.


Chris Barrett wrote:Bottomline is recruiters have become part of the industry. You won't be able to turn back the clock.



Well that is right.

Chris Barrett wrote:So, you should learn how to deal effectively with them instead of looking at them like a roadblock.



Now that is really hard! I still cannot see much they do that would benefit me. The things you are saying are somewhat true, but still the situation where I can apply directly to a company is still better in my view. It has other advantages. The only thing is..nowadays the recruiters have 'hijacked' all the vacancies.


Chris Barrett wrote:While you've enjoyed aspects of the contract role experiences, you realized it wasn't for you.



No my present job was not a contract role. I just had a temporary contract that is not renewed. The reason is not my attitude, but sheer technical knowledge. The thing I am doing now is studying a lot, and maybe get some certification to proof I have renewed my knowledge. My personality was judged as very open, very funny and most coworkers love me. I think that is positive since knowledge is in principle easier to obtain, then personality can be changed. But the truth is, I am just scared I won't be able to cram some new knowledge into my brain before I get unemployed, cannot pay my daughters college, cannot pay my mortgage. I probably have been stupid only to start working on my technical knowledge at the moment I have the dagger of unemployment at my throat.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. I am not agreeing with everything, but a second view is always appreciated.

 
Ulf Dittmer
Rancher
Posts: 43011
76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:

So, you should learn how to deal effectively with them instead of looking at them like a roadblock.


I still cannot see much they do that would benefit me. ... the situation where I can apply directly to a company is still better in my view. ... The only thing is..nowadays the recruiters have 'hijacked' all the vacancies.



The recruiter is between you and a job you might potentially want. If in your job market they're used for almost all vacancies like you said, then being able to deal with them effectively is a big benefit indeed. As to applying directly to the company - that's another reason why a company might use recruiters: so they don't have to deal with all the applications and applicants. If for whatever reason a company has only a small HR team, they may prefer to outsource some of the process to a recruiter. So think of them as an outsourced HR team - and the way to a job is through the HR team.
 
Henry Wong
author
Posts: 23867
141
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan de Boer wrote:Well let me first nuance things. There are recruiters I do let work for me. It is not all black. Still I would prefer to have just a list of vacancies, company descriptions and addresses and apply directly to the company. I cannot see much use in the whole recruiter business.



Just because you don't understand the point or reason for a task, doesn't mean that it is useless. The recruiting business serve a purpose, and hence, recruiters serve a purpose.


Companies can and many times do "just [provide] a list of vacancies, company descriptions and addresses and [have candidates] apply directly to the company". However, in most cases when they do that, they just get swamped with a ridiculous amount of applications; and many of those applications are either obviously done by some sort of spamming system, and/or is very difficult to qualify. So, how to fix?

IMHO, the best option is for companies to have recommendations from current employees. The companies know their employees, know their skill, and hence, can place greater value in their professional network. Of course, sometimes, employees just bring in people for the cash reward; and recruiters sometimes do that too, but the company can solve this by only offering the reward only when the new hire passes a certain time (like six months).

Unfortunately, this option doesn't scale. Your employees have a small and slowly changing number of people in their trusted professional network. And if their network is good, most of the time, they are employed. So, what is the alternative?

Another option is to hire a very large HR department. This very large department can wad through the mess of submissions. They can also keep a professional network to draw from... And of course, this is definitely not an option. The company is in business to do banking, manufacturing, product development, etc. (ie. their core business). It is not in the recruiting business. So, like other large tasks that is not their core business, a good option is to outsource it... hence, the recruiting business.

Henry
 
Jan de Boer
Ranch Hand
Posts: 974
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I agree that because they are not useful for me, it would not mean they could not be useful for the company.

Henry Wong wrote:However, in most cases when they do that, they just get swamped with a ridiculous amount of applications



But here, I protest. I have had interviews in which I directly applied through a website. At one company both me and my daughter applied. Because I was curious about the chances of my daughter, I have asked how many applications they got. Now for the administration/secretary role my daughter applied to, they got about 150 applications. But for the software engineer job only about 10. So if they hire recruiters for engineers, it is probably because they get too little applications, not too many.
 
Eliminate 95% of the weeds in your lawn by mowing 3 inches or higher. Then plant tiny ads:
Java file APIs (DOC, XLS, PDF, and many more)
https://products.aspose.com/total/java
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!