Very new and need advise

[Danny Patel]

Hi guys,

I am new to programming and I have chosen JAVA as the language to learn.

Now what I want to do is get my foot in the door and get some work experience.

When it is needed I will learn other skills too or further develop my JAVA skill and increase my income.

As I get industry experience I will know the next steps.

Please kindly answer the following questions.

1. is JAVA good enough to get me a junior role and well used to have career progress purely in JAVA?
2. 2. Linda and CBTnuggets and other’s do CBT or video based training any recommendations?
3. Sam’s learning from the source is good as I have used it for photo shop. Is Sam's a good learning source for beginners?
4. JAVA certification OR Oracle certified professional looks too hard and deep for me, is it worth doing over and above learning from few books and video based training?

Please kindly advise.

Ali

[Campbell Ritchie]

Welcome to the Ranch

You should get lots of experience and learning before you try looking for a job. I don't know what the job market is like where you live, but we have a jobs forum. If you are simply beginning then you should learn lots of Java® before you even think about jobs.

Danny Patel wrote: . . .
3. Sam’s learning from the source is good as I have used it for photo shop. Is Sam's a good learning source for beginners?
. . .

It isn't Sam's but Sams. We have a book reviews page, where you will find the answer to that question.

[Campbell Ritchie]

Danny Patel wrote: . . . JAVA certification OR Oracle certified professional looks too hard and deep for me, is it worth doing over and above learning from few books and video based training? . . .

Certification is a basic qualification. Where I am most people sit degrees before going for programming jobs. Not getting certified is like applying for a driving job and saying, “I thought sitting a driving t‍est was too hard and deep.”

[Danny Patel]

Campbell Ritchie wrote:

Danny Patel wrote: . . . JAVA certification OR Oracle certified professional looks too hard and deep for me, is it worth doing over and above learning from few books and video based training? . . .

Certification is a basic qualification. Where I am most people sit degrees before going for programming jobs. Not getting certified is like applying for a driving job and saying, “I thought sitting a driving t‍est was too hard and deep.”

You have 100% misunderstood.

I am NEW.
I want to start somewhere.
Once i have understanding of basics, concepts and get used to the environment THEN i will do more intense course, certification.

NOW assume i am a 6 year old saying i wish to be a writer.

Degree in the UK became useless since 1998. In most subjects unless it was the core requirement. Lawyer or DR etc.

As for driving? I was asking which is the best driving course, which instructor and i CANT drive.

basic, new, newbie, nub, beginner, testing water, sampling.... that is me... never mind.

my search continues....

[Winston Gutkowski]

Danny Patel wrote:You have 100% misunderstood.

Actually, I seriously doubt he has.

I am NEW.
I want to start somewhere.
Once i have understanding of basics, concepts and get used to the environment THEN i will do more intense course, certification.

NOW assume i am a 6 year old saying i wish to be a writer.

Except I doubt that's the case, since you talk about "work" and "income". And for that, you will need experience - LOTS OF IT.

Not to put you off, but read this article. It's one of the best I know for giving you an idea of what you're taking on.

Degree in the UK became useless since 1998.

Really? What happened then?

In most subjects unless it was the core requirement. Lawyer or DR etc.

And it's pretty much a requirement for programming now too - especially for a "trainee" role (which I suspect is what you're looking for). I was lucky enough to leave school in the mid-seventies, and then it was still possible to get a programming job without one. These days? Highly unlikely.

As for driving? I was asking which is the best driving course, which instructor and i CANT drive.

Then I'm afraid you have a long road ahead of you. There are lots of courses (and books) out there, just two of which are this one (for courses; but you may have to wait a bit, even if you find the right one), and this one - not to mention Oracle's own tutorials.

But truly: read that article I linked first. None of this is going to happen overnight - in fact, I'd say it's unlikely to happen for at least a year; even if you study like a Tasmanian Devil.

But if you're really determined, don't let that stop you...

Winston

[Campbell Ritchie]

Winston Gutkowski wrote: . . . and then it was still possible to get a programming job without one. . . .

In those days you could hardly get a degree in computing. Maths was probably the nearest that any Universities actually taught.

[Dave Tolls]

Winston Gutkowski wrote:

Degree in the UK became useless since 1998.

Really? What happened then?

Labour got into power the year before and devalued degrees.
Or at least that's the perceived wisdom.

What it in fact means is that (as you later say) a degree is more required than ever, as employers have more candidates with degrees to pick from (this, of course, excludes Media Studies).


Quite glad I got in the market before all of that...

[Bear Bibeault]

Btw, nothing brands you as a n00b as much as spell it JAVA -- it's Java; not an acronym.

[Matt Matthews]

Danny Patel wrote:

Campbell Ritchie wrote:

Danny Patel wrote: . . . JAVA certification OR Oracle certified professional looks too hard and deep for me, is it worth doing over and above learning from few books and video based training? . . .

Certification is a basic qualification. Where I am most people sit degrees before going for programming jobs. Not getting certified is like applying for a driving job and saying, “I thought sitting a driving t‍est was too hard and deep.”

You have 100% misunderstood.

I am NEW.
I want to start somewhere.
Once i have understanding of basics, concepts and get used to the environment THEN i will do more intense course, certification.

NOW assume i am a 6 year old saying i wish to be a writer.

Degree in the UK became useless since 1998. In most subjects unless it was the core requirement. Lawyer or DR etc.

As for driving? I was asking which is the best driving course, which instructor and i CANT drive.

basic, new, newbie, nub, beginner, testing water, sampling.... that is me... never mind.

my search continues....

I think your comment about degrees being useless in the UK is totally ignorant and offensive.
I too live in the UK and currently a Computer Science student. Certified in several IT skills such as CCNA which I have now gained via University. I am also sitting my Oracle OCA this year and the OCA is what many consider to be a bare minimum. It is the most basic level that Oracle offer for Java developers.
I started work within IT back in 2007 and vast majority of employers now, do demand a degree or at minimum the likes of Oracle certification and experience. I do not know one software company that will even look at anybody who does not have the correct education behind them.
Java is our core language at University and this site is packed with tutorials and answers to thousands of questions. Also, the Oracle site even gives step by step tutorials for Java beginners. Download Netbeans and work along to those.

[Winston Gutkowski]

Matt Matthews wrote:I think your comment about degrees being useless in the UK is totally ignorant and offensive...

Steady on. I don't think Danny was slagging off recipients of degrees - 'sounded more to me like a political comment.

The fact is that I STILL don't have a degree, yet I consider myself a pretty good programmer. And given that my last experience of trying to get one (back in 1996) consisted of a year of telling tutors what they wanted to hear - with the requisite quotes from refereed journals of course - I'm not sure I want to any more.
I actually passed the first year, but work moved me away from Uni, so I couldn't complete the course.

What I DO remember is the best quote about academe from one of my tutors:
1. The first three years are spent proving you're worthy of actually having an opinion.
2. The next two (or three) are spent warding off the question: "You did get a FIRST, didn't you?".

Now that might be fine at 18; but not at 38.

IMO, a degree says no more about how good a programmer you'll be than whether you can throw a tight spiral. Unfortunately (@Danny), it's about all employers look at these days.

Winston

[Henry Wong]

IMO, for a fresher, a degree is very important. For the experience, I can look at previous jobs. What projects has the candidate worked on? Is it a long term project? Or has the candidate jumped from company to company? And we can discuss those projects.

Without any experience, the degree tells me ... Can this candidate work on something for four years? For two years? etc. Also, depending on the degree, I can expect a certain level of math, to be able to have some discussions -- not really as a test, but more in the ability to understand and apply it. It is not that the concept is important, it is a concept that we have in common, and hence, have a discussion about.

Henry

[Winston Gutkowski]

Henry Wong wrote:Without any experience, the degree tells me ... Can this candidate work on something for four years? For two years? etc. Also, depending on the degree, I can expect a certain level of math, to be able to have some discussions -- not really as a test, but more in the ability to understand and apply it. It is not that the concept is important, it is a concept that we have in common, and hence, have a discussion about.

I can't argue with the idea, but of the two best programmers I've ever met: one didn't have a degree at all (not me ); the other got his in Soil Science.

Go figure.

Winston

[Henry Wong]

Winston Gutkowski wrote:
I can't argue with the idea, but of the two best programmers I've ever met: one didn't have a degree at all (not me ); the other got his in Soil Science.

I also know a couple of people with high school degrees. I also know quite a few people with non-technical degrees too. One of the smartest people that I know has a degree in theology..

However, I know these people later in life. They have experience. And they have proven themselves. If I had met them as a fresher, it would have been very difficult to judge; it would be very difficult to have a good interview, when there are so many candidates on the market. Heck, HR would have probably removed their resume before it even got to me. I am not saying that it is fair, but the market is over saturated for fresh out of the university, and there needs to be a quick first-pass mechanism to cull down the candidate list.

Henry

[Matt Matthews]

Winston Gutkowski wrote:

Matt Matthews wrote:I think your comment about degrees being useless in the UK is totally ignorant and offensive...

Steady on. I don't think Danny was slagging off recipients of degrees - 'sounded more to me like a political comment.

The fact is that I STILL don't have a degree, yet I consider myself a pretty good programmer. And given that my last experience of trying to get one (back in 1996) consisted of a year of telling tutors what they wanted to hear - with the requisite quotes from refereed journals of course - I'm not sure I want to any more.
I actually passed the first year, but work moved me away from Uni, so I couldn't complete the course.

What I DO remember is the best quote about academe from one of my tutors:
1. The first three years are spent proving you're worthy of actually having an opinion.
2. The next two (or three) are spent warding off the question: "You did get a FIRST, didn't you?".

Now that might be fine at 18; but not at 38.

IMO, a degree says no more about how good a programmer you'll be than whether you can throw a tight spiral. Unfortunately (@Danny), it's about all employers look at these days.

Winston

I know a few people who are very intelligent and excellent software developers who do not have a degree either. They are all Oracle certified now though. Of course you can be great at programming without a degree but one thing that students of software engineering have that those (for the most part)who are self taught do not have is the sheer in depth academic understanding of scientific and engineering principals. These skills are essential for being a successful software engineer. I have learnt so much at University that is simply harder to come across for non students. Plus the networking and career days are invaluable.
In our era of 2015 it is next to impossible to get a career without a degree. A degree as stated above shows dedication and the ability to learn along with in depth knowledge of that subject.
My step Father is a software engineering manager at a very successful company and he always said to get a degree and work your way up the ladder to become a senior manager etc. He is always sitting new certifications and traveling to conferences. We are heading to Black Hat Europe next year. His company won't touch anyone without a degree. The major companies who come to our University all require a degree minimum. Every job I see advertised in my region all ask for a degree.
I am currently working with an IT company and also whilst at University studying to sit further certifications to to try and stand a chance of landing a job when I graduate. So tough out there right now.

The era of walking into programming roles is long over. It is a very very competitive market and there are hundreds graduating with degrees each year in the UK for computer science.

But I 100% agree that there are people who are fantastic who don't have a degree. I knew one guy who was part of a start up company in gaming and his Java skills were stunning. He too is now attending University as even he can't get a career without it.

[Bear Bibeault]

Back "in the day" it was a lot easier to break into software development without a background. When I worked at DEC, the group secretary moved into development (and she turned out to be a good developer). I don't see that happening a lot today.

[Matt Matthews]

Bear Bibeault wrote:Back "in the day" it was a lot easier to break into software development without a background. When I worked at DEC, the group secretary move into development (and she turned out to be a good developer). I don't see that happening a lot today.

Very true.
My step Father's degree was actually in business and he ended up getting into software back in the late 70's. Even worked in silicone valley in the golden days. Would have loved to have seen those days.

[James Boswell]

but one thing that students of software engineering have that those (for the most part)who are self taught do not have is the sheer in depth academic understanding of scientific and engineering principals. These skills are essential for being a successful software engineer.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Some of the best programmers I have come across have a background or degree in English/art/photography. It is true that you need a degree to get a decent software role these days but simply having one doesn't make you a good programmer. Possessing traits like determination and perseverance will also help you succeed because without a doubt, there are days when these help you through more than intelligence.

[Winston Gutkowski]

Bear Bibeault wrote:Back "in the day" it was a lot easier to break into software development without a background. When I worked at DEC, the group secretary moved into development (and she turned out to be a good developer).

Absolutely, and I remember quite a few 'making the move' from operations (back in the days when computers needed operators) too.

I don't see that happening a lot today.

And I reckon that part of the reason is that it's much harder to actually get to an interview these days. Companies have HR departments, so the people in charge of the "first cut" probably aren't even in IT any more; and I suspect they'e under strict orders to bin CVs that don't include a degree. I didn't even have a CV for my first three job interviews...and I got 'em all.

And to me it's a great pity. We seem to be going the way of Japan, where life from 12-25 is simply a competition to set up your career, and universities are production lines for graduates with degrees that have less and less meaning, except to say that you "did your three" (or five, or seven). I think, if I ran an IT company, I'd want to actively recruit "hobbyists", regardless of whether they have a degree or not - ie, people who like computers and computing - and I'd be much more interested in seeing what they've done, rather than a piece of paper that says whether they got a first or a Desmond.

But I don't; and I very much doubt that the great machinery of recruiting is likely to change any time soon.

Winston

[Matt Matthews]

Winston Gutkowski wrote:

Bear Bibeault wrote:Back "in the day" it was a lot easier to break into software development without a background. When I worked at DEC, the group secretary moved into development (and she turned out to be a good developer).

Absolutely, and I remember quite a few 'making the move' from operations (back in the days when computers needed operators) too.

I don't see that happening a lot today.

And I reckon that part of the reason is that it's much harder to actually get to an interview these days. Companies have HR departments, so the people in charge of the "first cut" probably aren't even in IT any more; and I suspect they'e under strict orders to bin CVs that don't include a degree. I didn't even have a CV for my first three job interviews...and I got 'em all.

And to me it's a great pity. We seem to be going the way of Japan, where life from 12-25 is simply a competition to set up your career, and universities are production lines for graduates with degrees that have less and less meaning, except to say that you "did your three" (or five, or seven). I think, if I ran an IT company, I'd want to actively recruit "hobbyists", regardless of whether they have a degree or not - ie, people who like computers and computing - and I'd be much more interested in seeing what they've done, rather than a piece of paper that says whether they got a first or a Desmond.

But I don't; and I very much doubt that the great machinery of recruiting is likely to change any time soon.

Winston

A problem that we have in the UK at the moment is that many IT companies are using recruiting agencies to employ developers. These recruiting agencies for the most part have zero idea what they are looking at. Yet to meet any who know or understand what a computer science degree is. They must just match words on a page to your resume. My friend who graduated last year in business got asked if he wanted a server admin role. He can just about turn a computer on.

A few who graduated last year in computer science can't even get a job. Some are working in retail for minimum wage just to get by. For those who even get shortlisted, they then have to go and sit a test to even see if they are worth interviewing. I know of one job that had over 700 people apply and only 2 positions to offer. So hard right now. Not to mention the sheer amount of huge companies that have shipped all the programming jobs off to India were they can pay people a pound per day.
I am honestly scared of graduating.

[Dave Tolls]

Matt Matthews wrote:A problem that we have in the UK at the moment is that many IT companies are using recruiting agencies to employ developers. These recruiting agencies for the most part have zero idea what they are looking at. Yet to meet any who know or understand what a computer science degree is.

A lot of the larger agencies really have no clue about the technologies they deal with. As a contractor I have to deal with agents all the time, but I much prefer the smaller agencies. They tend to have a better grasp of the terminology, albeit still a bit ropey.

Matt Matthews wrote:My friend who graduated last year in business got asked if he wanted a server admin role. He can just about turn a computer on.

I get calls for all sorts of weird and wonderful jobs that I am completely unqualified to do. Apparently I really should be doing ex-military recruitment.

Matt Matthews wrote:
A few who graduated last year in computer science can't even get a job. Some are working in retail for minimum wage just to get by.

I had to work as an admin assistant, first a temp then permanent, before getting my first proper coding job (at the same place, BAe). People still get recruited internally. Seen it happen in several places over the past 5 or 6 years. The key is to get your foot into the company. Forget what the actual role is.

Matt Matthews wrote:
For those who even get shortlisted, they then have to go and sit a test to even see if they are worth interviewing. I know of one job that had over 700 people apply and only 2 positions to offer. So hard right now. Not to mention the sheer amount of huge companies that have shipped all the programming jobs off to India were they can pay people a pound per day.
I am honestly scared of graduating.

Don't know how much off-shoring is done anymore. It's a lot less than a decade ago, at least from the places I've worked.

[Henry Wong]

Dave Tolls wrote:

Matt Matthews wrote:For those who even get shortlisted, they then have to go and sit a test to even see if they are worth interviewing. I know of one job that had over 700 people apply and only 2 positions to offer. So hard right now. Not to mention the sheer amount of huge companies that have shipped all the programming jobs off to India were they can pay people a pound per day.

Don't know how much off-shoring is done anymore. It's a lot less than a decade ago, at least from the places I've worked.

Agreed. It is more likely caused by the economy, as the unemployment rate of university graduates seems to be really high across all industries, even those industries that don't off shore much.

Luckily, in the US, while unemployment is high IMO, it seems to be relatively lower than other countries. I think in a bad economy, where unemployment gets really high, there tends to be a trickle down. Retirements get delayed. People take demotions for less pay. etc., pushing the pain down until it gets to the graduates, who can't take a demotion. Also, companies get wary, and scale back projects too.

This is, of course, my opinion only -- so take with a grain of salt.

Henry

[Winston Gutkowski]

Matt Matthews wrote:A problem that we have in the UK at the moment is that many IT companies are using recruiting agencies to employ developers...

I'm not sure that that's necessarily a problem, as long as they're not too "formulaic". When I lived in Vancouver, I actually got several jobs (including the best one of my career) through an agency; but he was a one-man band: Complete nutter with a "lazy eye" who drank like a fish; but he seemed to have a knack for fitting "the right person with the right job" - and he made mucho dinero out of me.

Got my best contract job (at Sun UK) via a recruitment firm too.

Winston

[Matt Matthews]

Winston Gutkowski wrote:

Matt Matthews wrote:A problem that we have in the UK at the moment is that many IT companies are using recruiting agencies to employ developers...

I'm not sure that that's necessarily a problem, as long as they're not too "formulaic". When I lived in Vancouver, I actually got several jobs (including the best one of my career) through an agency; but he was a one-man band: Complete nutter with a "lazy eye" who drank like a fish; but he seemed to have a knack for fitting "the right person with the right job" - and he made mucho dinero out of me.

Got my best contract job (at Sun UK) via a recruitment firm too.

Winston

I don't mean that agencies are not good. Some are excellent but I happen to wonder at their ethics. Having family and friends who have sadly been dropped from jobs, they feel a lack of job security with agency work, how an agency could phone you at 2pm and expect you to start a new job by 4pm etc. That is certainly what goes on with many agencies in the UK. Though I am sure there are some good ones around.

[Matt Matthews]

I get calls for all sorts of weird and wonderful jobs that I am completely unqualified to do. Apparently I really should be doing ex-military recruitment.

I was in the military and it was the biggest waste of time ever. I went in with decent IT knowledge from my previous job in web development and came out nearly starting from scratch. I really regret that I held my IT career back by serving.