Government rules make for good meaningless drivel

[Karthik Shiraly]

I went to a government run library today, intending to become a member.
They asked me to fill a registration form and submit an identity proof. I had expected that.
But what I hadn't expected was that they wanted both to be attested by a "gazetted government officer"!

Now, I'm no stranger to the silliness of our government procedures, but this one really takes the cake.
An attestation for a library card? That too by any random government officer?
They're already taking a safety deposit to ensure we don't abscond with their books.
And they're taking an identity proof that was issued by themselves (with all kinds of fancy biometric features, no less).

So, what is the point of putting up an entry barrier for a library?
Perhaps they are afraid that we the sheep plebs may become a little too literate and knowledgeable!

If there was a dailywtf for governments, our government would rank right up there!

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Wow. Glad our library doesn't do that here!

When I got my first library card, the rule was to show proof you lived in the area. Which a parent could do. You also had to be able to "write" your name. They were flexible with that. I got mine when I could copy my name letter by letter from a piece of paper, my mom had written it on. (aka before I could actually write.) I *really* wanted my own library card though.

[Maneesh Godbole]

Karthik Shiraly wrote:
But what I hadn't expected was that they wanted both to be attested by a "gazetted government officer"!

You might want to refer them to this http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/narendra-modi-asks-departments-to-allow-self-attestation-of-documents/1/375266.html

Recently I got my passport reissued, and even they accepted self-attested documents. Considering that the passport is the highest security document issued by the government, in my opinion, compared to it, the library card is peanuts.

[Karthik Shiraly]

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Wow. Glad our library doesn't do that here!

When I got my first library card, the rule was to show proof you lived in the area. Which a parent could do. You also had to be able to "write" your name. They were flexible with that. I got mine when I could copy my name letter by letter from a piece of paper, my mom had written it on. (aka before I could actually write.) I *really* wanted my own library card though.

Seems quite friendly and lenient, though the need for a child to be able to write is a bit odd. What happens to kids who love picture books of animals, or kids with special needs who have difficulty writing but no difficulty seeing and appreciating pictures?

[Karthik Shiraly]

Maneesh Godbole wrote:You might want to refer them to this http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/narendra-modi-asks-departments-to-allow-self-attestation-of-documents/1/375266.html

Recently I got my passport reissued, and even they accepted self-attested documents. Considering that the passport is the highest security document issued by the government, in my opinion, compared to it, the library card is peanuts.

I'm aware of that and it's a welcome development. My passport renewal too was quick and surprisingly hassle free.

Unfortunately, this attitude is yet to trickle down to the state government (that runs these libraries) and the lower cadre of government officials.
I am cynical about that government grunt in the library accepting the logic and information of such news and taking a lenient view.

On the other hand, I don't see why in the 21st century I should become subservient to the whims and fancies of some random government grunt for proving my identity.
It's a concept that belonged to the colonial era when they only trusted their own, and perhaps the first 2-3 decades after independence, when illiteracy was high, forcing the government to rely on the word of government officers who were usually well educated.

None of that is true today. Today's government officers are neither well educated, nor do they join service for good reasons. Their word should not be trusted over the common citizen's. The overall bad condition of governance clearly demonstrates this.

I think I'll give self attestation a shot. If that doesn't work out, I'll stick to private libraries. A place that prefers outdated hostile procedures, even if it's a center of knowledge, does not deserve any encouragement!

[Anayonkar Shivalkar]

It reminds me of this

Unfortunately, I've also faced similar situation (not for library membership, but with telecom department).

The funny thing is - (almost)nobody knows why those procedures are in place

[Karthik Shiraly]

That video's hilarious! I totally identify with that girl.
When I went for aadhar and passport registration, I took some 4 different ID and address proofs, 3 copies each....and yes, I even took a stapler, some paper pins, a pen, and glue....not kidding!
After a boil on the bum, the second most painful thing in life is revisiting a government office!

[Arun Kumarr]

Anayonkar Shivalkar wrote:The funny thing is - (almost)nobody knows why those procedures are in place

First:
Cat in the Monastery

Secondly:

In a way, I can understand why we really have the gazetted officer attestation in place. This is a kind of verification is for library(ies) which can't afford to have the facility to verify the passport or identity proof because they are not "integrated" with the passport systems or driving license systems. Ideal thing would be to have a library system which does the checks for you. On the other hand a gazetted officer is authorized to do this check by checking your face against the passport (anyone can do this, but are they authorized to do it!!!). So clearly the enabling of the person sitting in the library desk was not done. If you see, it can't be done by random government officer. There are only specific set of people who can(will) do this and they are supposed to do check that you are what you are claiming in the identity proof. (They have a fee and do it without proper process, is something which needs to be fixed in the gazetted officer attestation process, not the library process, IMHO)
Coming to self-attestation and gazetted officer attestation, it is analogous to the question, is your system going to sign the bank statement PDF which is sent out or is it going to use a centralized signing server.

Now, all's fine. Why have such a verification for a library card, is something I don't have an answer for!!
I can think of some reasons, though.
1. If there is a bomb blast in library, we know exactly who that is (assuming library has got a video camera).
2. If you abscond with a book, then they know who to catch. ( the upfront caution deposit you pay might be much less than the actual cost of the book you take).

You may be surprised that in India, to run a library and to be sit in the front desk as an government employee you need to pass courses like CLIS, BLIS and MLIS. (certificate/bachelor/master in library and information science). I'd treat library books, the same way I'd treat any information which is going out of systems (with the non-repudiation part, authentication and authorization involved).
Can you go to a company with identity proof, passport and get an access card to get inside their office? You can't.

That said, I personally support (though however stupid the process may sound to you) this check because, you have no idea how many idiots are there who have absolutely no sense of responsibility and respect towards books. It's like what one of the JR members had mentioned (Pat farrell, I think) - "People are idiots. Period".

[Arun Kumarr]

I worked as a part timer during my college days in University of Madras and I know the pain of maintenance. So, the people are idiots comments was based on personal observation.

[Karthik Shiraly]

That story of the cat in the monastery sums up this situation quite well.

I don't really have a problem with some preventive measures against theft or vandalization.
My problem is with the human aspect of it. I see such procedures as a lack of respect for our own citizens.

I fail to see why the word of a legislator / government officer / school principal is considered so sacrosanct.
All of us in India know just how venal these people are, especially the former two.

There are so many cases of legislators and officers who have forged signatures and orders to do crimes like usurping public land.

Such people are being given the right to judge whether the rest of us are honest or not!
Sorry, but I find it absurd.

[Guillermo Ishi]

The last time I got a library card, all I had to do was prove I was a resident. They mentioned a letter addressed to me at a local address was enough,

I had an envelope that my brother had sent me from our home state where he sent me a new sticker for my vehicle because it had expired and I wasn't a resident where I was and didn't want to have to register my vehicle there.

So I proved I was a resident using something I had because I wasn't a resident.

[Arun Kumarr]

Karthik Shiraly wrote: My problem is with the human aspect of it. I see such procedures as a lack of respect for our own citizens.

I fail to see why the word of a legislator / government officer / school principal is considered so sacrosanct.
All of us in India know just how venal these people are, especially the former two.

There are so many cases of legislators and officers who have forged signatures and orders to do crimes like usurping public land.

Such people are being given the right to judge whether the rest of us are honest or not!
Sorry, but I find it absurd.

- I think the issue is from where we are standing and seeing the world.


I look at the picture top-down and say the top guys are responsible for the shit in the heads of the bottom guys, but you look bottom-up and say the bottom guys have shit in their heads because people in the top are a**holes.