I hadn't been here for fifteen years
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
I have over 10 years in the industry, yet only today I got to read that agile manifesto.
Henry Wong wrote:
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
I have over 10 years in the industry, yet only today I got to read that agile manifesto.
Please quote your sources -- ie. there is a big difference between the official source, and some out of work engineer looking to blame someone/something.
Henry
Junilu Lacar wrote:Much of what OP writes here are argumentative, loaded, leading questions and indicate a great number of misconceptions about Agile development and the concept of "agility". Many of the "questions" seem to be based on invalid assumptions.
For example:
Regarding "Responding to change over Following a plan", OP writes: "Responding = passive + lack of ownership. How is that better?" How does OP even equate responsiveness to passiveness and lack of ownership? This post is pure nonsense.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
Is this some sort of joke ? The agile manifesto + 12 principles appears in every single Agile book ever written.
Manifesto: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/
Principles: http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html
I am pretty sure anyone at least familiar with Agile is expected to know of these things.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
Do you have proof or at least arguments to your "argumentative, loaded, leading questions " accusations ?
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Tim Cooke wrote: 'Responding' doesn't mean you sit around waiting for some input, it means you do the best with what you know right now but are prepared to change when new knowledge arrives.
Tim Cooke wrote:
Some evidence that 'agile' developers get paid significantly less than 'waterfall' developers, especially as you become more senior? I'm curious because this has not been my experience.
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Tim Cooke wrote:Does that mean you should stick to the plan no matter what? Even if the knowledge you had when you made the plan turns out to be wrong? Even if the customer made a mistake in their requirements? Even if you find out later you made a bad plan? How do you manage these unforeseen events with an "upfront plan at all costs" approach?
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Tim Cooke wrote:I'm not saying that Agile doesn't require you to plan from the start. So what do you think I'm claiming Agile is better than?
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Tim Cooke wrote: Have we now moved on to another false proposal that Agile hinders your professional development?
Tim Cooke wrote:
Let's take my work as an example. I work with electronic trading systems. If I were to follow your proposal for progressing my career quickly would I have to focus on a small part of the product only to do so? Should I focus all my efforts solely on the part of the system that sends email notifications to our customers, say? Should I avoid gaining knowledge on all other parts of the system because it would cause me to be less skilled in the email sending part?
Tim Cooke wrote:
Which engineer do you think is more valuable to a company: The guy who knows everything about the email sending part of the system? Or the guy who has a broad understanding of the entire system and its interactions within the larger ecosystem of a trading platform? Which guy would you promote first?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Until you have proven my proposal is false, you should not be hasty to proclaim it as so.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Maybe you fail to see that investing 10 consecutive days in A (the email system), then 10 consecutive days in A2, then 10 in A3, ..., and finally 10 consecutive days in A10 - is much better than investing 1 day in A1, then 1 day in A2 then 1 day in A3,..., then 1 Day in A10 then again 1 day in A1 and so on.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Obviously the one that knows all about the email system is more valuable than the one with moderate knowledge of the entire system, and both of them are more valuable than the one with little knowledge of the entire system. At least this is what their pay checks say.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:You are deliberately being misleading ... Stop trying to claim I said otherwise and please use real arguments
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
8) Since no 2 atoms can be in the same place at the same time, no 2 persons can do the same thing at the same time. For all the 'debaters' out there: if I press the button 'a', and my colleague presses that same button 'a' at the same moment, there are 2 different buttons pressed. No semantics disagreements to claim that 2 persons can work on the same thing at the same time.
Junilu Lacar wrote:
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
8) Since no 2 atoms can be in the same place at the same time, no 2 persons can do the same thing at the same time. For all the 'debaters' out there: if I press the button 'a', and my colleague presses that same button 'a' at the same moment, there are 2 different buttons pressed. No semantics disagreements to claim that 2 persons can work on the same thing at the same time.
This is a perfect illustration of the attitude that Tim points out. Your literal interpretation of "working on the same thing at the same time" has nothing to do with the collaborative nature of agile software development. On my teams, we do pair and group programming all the time and the software we produce through this practice is far more superior to the software that any single developer on our team working solo can produce.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:... my question about Agile being a scam.
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Tim Cooke wrote:
Lucian Whiteman wrote:... my question about Agile being a scam.
Would you mind clarifying exactly what your question is please? Mostly what I'm seeing here is a vigorously defended opinion.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
In order for your example to have relevance to the topic, you must take a team working in pairs using agile, and another one working in pairs without agile, then compare the 2.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:How much money does each programmer loses daily (through lower wage and lower opportunity) because of the Agile scam ?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:How much of that money goes to the Agile "coaches" and how much does it go elsewhere ?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Who are the ones who betrayed us and profited out of this scam ?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:How can we punish the ones who robbed us through the Agile scam ?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:How can we make sure such scams never occur again ?
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Tim Cooke wrote:
Lucian Whiteman wrote:How much money does each programmer loses daily (through lower wage and lower opportunity) because of the Agile scam ?
I believe that programmers don't earn less money and have less opportunity when working in an 'Agile' environment as opposed to some other environment.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Now open you eyes and ask yourself this: if I as an agile developer need twice as much time to become a senior compared to me working using waterfall, how much money does that cost me ?
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Lucian Whiteman wrote:Take a look at 10 companies usign agile and 10 using waterfal - for all levels begginer/medium/senior the paychecks are the same !!!
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Now open you eyes and ask yourself this: if I as an agile developer need twice as much time to become a senior compared to me working using waterfall, how much money does that cost me ?
I read the entire thread and don't see where this assertion comes from. Why do you believe it takes an agile developer twice as much time to become a senior developer?
Paul Clapham wrote:
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Take a look at 10 companies usign agile and 10 using waterfal - for all levels begginer/medium/senior the paychecks are the same !!!
Right. So that does demonstrate that programmers don't earn less money when working in an 'Agile" environment, as Tim said. I don't know how you interpret that statement as a contradiction of what Tim said.
Or at least it would demonstrate that if it were true. In most places it would be extremely difficult to survey 10 companies and find out what their salary ranges were and what development styles they were using. Practically impossible, really. But do you have an actual example of that from some country?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:Come on ! I know you want to defend scrum, but really ?!
So one guy is a beginner for 5 years (them middle level for another 5, with a greater pay check), and another one is a junior for 10 because he uses scrum. Though both have at first the same junior paycheck, you claim that those 2 earn the same during those 10 years !?
Lucian Whiteman wrote:
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Why do you believe it takes an agile developer twice as much time to become a senior developer?
In SCRUM each developer is an "interchangeable cog". Thus you get to do repetitive monkey job a lot.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:In SCRUM each developer is an "interchangeable cog". Thus you get to do repetitive monkey job a lot.
Lucian Whiteman wrote:So one guy is a beginner for 5 years (them middle level for another 5, with a greater pay check), and another one is a junior for 10 because he uses scrum. Though both have at first the same junior paycheck, you claim that those 2 earn the same during those 10 years !?
[OCP 21 book] | [OCP 17 book] | [OCP 11 book] | [OCA 8 book] [OCP 8 book] [Practice tests book] [Blog] [JavaRanch FAQ] [How To Ask Questions] [Book Promos]
Other Certs: SCEA Part 1, Part 2 & 3, Core Spring 3, TOGAF part 1 and part 2
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:
Let me ask you this: who on your "Scrum" team does the analysis, design and other 'senior developer work." If it isn't the people on the Scrum team, I'm puzzled who is left.
Tim Driven Development | Test until the fear goes away
Lucian Whiteman wrote:This is precisel my point: " the analysis, design and other 'senior developer work." is what one needs to become a senior, and in a scrum team everyone does an equal little bit of that. Compared to other approaches where one would get to do mostly that (if not only that) once he gathers experience.
Compare 10 months of doing 10% senior developer job and 90% junior developer - this is SCRUM, with another approach where you get to a point where you do 90% senior dev job and only 10% junior.
[OCP 21 book] | [OCP 17 book] | [OCP 11 book] | [OCA 8 book] [OCP 8 book] [Practice tests book] [Blog] [JavaRanch FAQ] [How To Ask Questions] [Book Promos]
Other Certs: SCEA Part 1, Part 2 & 3, Core Spring 3, TOGAF part 1 and part 2
Bear Bibeault wrote:I've worked in an Agile environment for my previous 5 jobs. I do 100% "senior dev" work. I'm still not getting your point. You've worked in organizations that implement Agile poorly -- we get that. How is that an indictment of the process when properly applied?
[OCP 21 book] | [OCP 17 book] | [OCP 11 book] | [OCA 8 book] [OCP 8 book] [Practice tests book] [Blog] [JavaRanch FAQ] [How To Ask Questions] [Book Promos]
Other Certs: SCEA Part 1, Part 2 & 3, Core Spring 3, TOGAF part 1 and part 2
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:
I'm not sure what this "senior" dev work is. I do a mix of things. Some could be done by a junior developer (like coding an implementation for an API). I do it much faster and better, but it could be done by a junior developer. Does that mean I do junior development work?
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:
On my team, we don't happen to have any junior developers at the moment. Everyone on the team has more than 10 years of programming experience. So we don't sit around thinking about what "junior dev" work is. There's work. There's problems to be solved. We do it. We don't sit around making a hierarchy of work. We have had interns in the past. We paired more then. We did more up front analysis so the person could do some work independently. But it was carving out work the person could handle. And we had a junior developer on the team at one point. She needed more explanation and coaching on tasks, but did plenty.
Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:
I don't like the term "senior dev work". I like "senior dev skills." A senior developer brings up certain things, thinks more about non-functional requirements/maintenance/future changes, has more vision, etc. And that's something that nobody can take away because you are doing some kind of "lower level work." You do it better and it becomes "senior" work. I think that is a key difference. A senior developer is more likely to say something if asked to do something inefficiently or wrong. A junior developer is more likely to just do it.
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