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Welsh passwords

 
Marshal
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Stephan van Hulst wrote:. . . . The only thing that determines password strength is length . . . .

What about this as a password?

Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­‑llan­tysilio­gogo­goch

It is long indeed, but it counts as a dictionary word.
 
Marshal
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:What about this as a password?

Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­‑llan­tysilio­gogo­goch

It is long indeed, but it counts as a dictionary word.


What kind of dictionary would have that as an entry? A Welsh-Thai dictionary maybe?
 
Campbell Ritchie
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All you need is a map: it's a village and its adjacent railway station.
 
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off-topic: pwllgwyngyll - it doesn'T even have a vowel in it ... strange folk those welsh ...
 
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But not half as strange as these coderanch folks
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Bob Winter wrote:. . . doesn'T even have a vowel in it

But w and y are both vowels in Welsh.

... strange folk those welsh ...

Don't get my racist tendencies going.
 
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It's always entertaining when english speaking folk from other countries arrive in UK towns that have their own dialect/accent.  Even better are conference video calls with a whole host of regional variations.        

I'ld suspect a long list of random dialect words would make pretty strong password and add then add two factor authentication.    
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Well, if you will live somewhere where they speak a totally different language from the rest of England....
 
Bob Winter
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:

Bob Winter wrote:. . . doesn'T even have a vowel in it

But w and y are both vowels in Welsh.

... strange folk those welsh ...

Don't get my racist tendencies going.


In primary school I onced learned that only A, E, I, O and U (had to put in TT tag as a single u is blocked as slang term for "you") are vowels as they can be pronounced all on their own in contrast to consonants which always have at least one of the vowels sound along with them.
Btw: It wasn't meant racist at all - just as: "Well, different country different people.".

About dialects: Sure, where I live there's practical no "g" but about 5 other letters or combinations of other letters to replace it - hence the local joke: "g - that's a strange looking number". And as I also know russian I know there're some strange words with a lot of consonants in a row until the next vowel comes up. But welsh is something what looks like not really belong to central continental europe.
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Bob Winter wrote:. . . a single u is blocked . . . .

Try U/u.
 
Peter Rooke
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But welsh is something what looks like not really belong to central continental europe.

- as its older than any of those fancy new speaking tongues from over the sea.  
Here's "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" featured in a you tube clip of weather forecast on the day it was not raining
 
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I thought I recognized that name! And yes, it's weak because it's a dictionary word, but most of us would have trouble entering it accurately on the first 3 tries.

In English, incidentally, "w" and "y" are designated as semi-vowels. Which means that sometimes they serve as vowels and sometimes they serve as consonants. Then we have schwa - "ə" - which is pronounced all the time but never used in writing or print except in pronunciation guides. And I want the letter "thorn" ("þ") back! Þis "th" nonsense has got to stop! And no faking it with a "Y" like ðey did last time. It's "þe Olde Curiousity Shoppe", not "Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe"!

Welsh is one of the members of the Celtic language family, which includes Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx, Cornish and I think one or 2 others that I can't immediately recall. Celtic is an Indo-European language family, and is usually listed in tree diagrams next to the Germanic family, which includes English.

Several Welsh words are considered to have been adopted into English - which steals other people's words wantonly at the best of times - although in some cases the actual word origin is fuzzy since the same word exists in other Celtic languages so you can't say that they're definitively and exclusively Welsh. One exception, for all you Linux fans, is "penguin", which is almost certainly of Welsh origin.

There's actually quite a bit of similarity between Welsh and English, since their geography and history overlap so much. And in some cases, both use words derived from Latin, thanks to the Roman domination of the Isles long ago. Listen to the BBC News in Welsh, however, and you won't have even the slightest difficulty in knowing that Welsh is in no way English. It's surprisingly different-sounding considering the long side-by-side history. Some would argue that it's more musical, and the word "bard" is Welsh.

At last count, if everyone in my town learned Welsh, the population of Welsh-speakers in the world would have doubled.
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Tim Holloway wrote:. . . one or 2 others that I can't immediately recall.

Breton

. . . similarity between Welsh and English . . .

Don't go to West Wales and say that
 
Tim Holloway
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:

Tim Holloway wrote:. . . one or 2 others that I can't immediately recall.

Breton

. . . similarity between Welsh and English . . .

Don't go to West Wales and say that



Tun/Tin - probably goes way back.
sospan/saucepan
powlen/bowl
dysgl/dish
pinsaid/pinch (cooking)
peint/pint
owns/ounce - who are we kidding here?
crwst/crust

I pulled some kitchen terms since cooking is something that predates both Norman William and the Romans.

We also have "nos" for night, related to Latus noctus, and sideways into German Nacht/English night.

Though, of course, if you want to have any sort of serious conversation, it's going to go right off the rails. There's not that much overlap, after all.
 
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:Don't go to West Wales and say that


Llŷn, yes.
Pembroke's little England, and the coast up the middle is all holiday homes.
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Tim Holloway wrote:. . . owns/ounce - who are we kidding here? . . ..

That example probably shows a difficulty faced by all languages serving a restricted population base. They have to “importt” vocabulary from outside rather then coining their own words much more. Since we had metrication in the 1970s, they probably don't sell anything by the owns any more, but by the gram.
 
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Tim Holloway wrote:I thought I recognized that name! And yes, it's weak because it's a dictionary word, but most of us would have trouble entering it accurately on the first 3 tries.

In English, incidentally, "w" and "y" are designated as semi-vowels. Which means that sometimes they serve as vowels and sometimes they serve as consonants. Then we have schwa - "ə" - which is pronounced all the time but never used in writing or print except in pronunciation guides. And I want the letter "thorn" ("þ") back! Þis "th" nonsense has got to stop! And no faking it with a "Y" like ðey did last time. It's "þe Olde Curiousity Shoppe", not "Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe"!



I hate spelling, and often come across words with ə--the unempasized vowel sound--and they drive me NUTS. I can never remember which letter I'm supposed to use, and invariably use the wrong one.

And, I just learned about þ two days ago, while reading a medieval cooking book (coincidently called, "þe Bors Hede Booke of Cookry"), and I saw the letter in one of the recipes, and realized the word was THE. I so wish we still had the þ letter. It'd sure make teaching kids phonics a whole lot easier. Having the "th" sound made by a T and H really makes no sense!

Apparently, there was another letter Ȝ ȝ "yogh," that made a bunch of sounds like the g in give "ȝive" and also the Y sound in year "ȝear." And, apparently also the "gh" sound. We could have had a letter for that, rather than two letters that don't make that sound at all!

And, here's a sentence that has both ȝ and þ:


"God spede þe plouȝ: & sende us kǫrne inolk. ("God speed the plough: and send us corn enough"
 
Campbell Ritchie
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...with very human faces for the oxen pulling the plough...
 
Campbell Ritchie
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And the writing you have there explains why mediaeval English called the farming tool a plow and modern British English a plough.
 
Tim Holloway
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I think actually that the yogh was most common in the "gh" position. But spelling before 1800 was mostly an imprecise thing, to be diplomatic. Indeed, some very famous documents may be found where spelling isn't even consistent within the document itself.

The letters yogh and wynn basically faded away with Old English. But thorn was murdered. How? It seems that in England, moveable type was not initially a domestic product and had to be purchased from Germany or Italy. German doesn't have a thorn sound - in German, the word "throne" is pronounced "tronë" (note that they still pronounce the final "e"s). It's used for foreign import words. Similarly with Italian. So people tried re-purposing "Y", which was really more shaped like wynn, then finally gave it up as a lost cause.

I do draw the line at the long "s", though. It's too easy to miftake for an "f".

We live in modern times where you can easily install a font with the letter "humpf" (how else would you spell "humpf-humpf-adumpfer"?) in it should you want to, and we should no longer have to endure Continental tyranny over the English alphabet. So by all means, bring back the "thorn"!

And for Campbell, "mediæval".

 
Campbell Ritchie
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Tim Holloway wrote:. . . "mediæval".

Ritchie 1, Holloway 2
 
Tim Holloway
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It's funny. I remember from books I read as a youth where you'd routinely see words like "encyclopædia", "coördinate" and "rôle". Nowadays we don't typeset like that very much even though it's much easier now.

I think maybe that smart editing software may be partly to blame. When you've got your word processor confirming you, you tend to take free reign and not tow the line and often dispense with having a person do the editing work. We loose something in the process, though.
 
Nicole Alderman
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The pretty letters also aren't on our keyboards...at least not here in the US.

And, Tim, thank you for the history lesson on letters. I find them facinating! Have a cow! (Preferably not one with a human face like the ones pulling the plough/plow!)
 
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Tim Holloway wrote:I think maybe that smart editing software may be partly to blame. When you've got your word processor confirming you, you tend to take free reign and not tow the line and often dispense with having a person do the editing work. We loose something in the process, though.



Q.E.D.
 
Tim Holloway
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Nicole Alderman wrote:The pretty letters also aren't on our keyboards...at least not here in the US.



Well, actually, I don't know where to find a full Latin international keyboard with markings, just national keyboards. What's sold as an "International 104 key keyboard" in the US typically doesn't even have the Euro (€) symbol on it!

The trick is "dead keys". You're probably familiar with the Windows finesse where you can hit a magic escape sequence and then a 3-digit code. But the standard X desktop for Linux supports something more intuitive and more convenient.

First you have do designate an "Alt-Gr", or alternate-graphics key in your GUI preferences. Depending on the keyboard I have, it might be the right Windows key or something like that, but on my current keyboard, it's just the righthand Alt key, since the Windows Menu key controls internal programming and media keys in the keyboard itself and therefore isn't suitable. For the Euro symbol, the sequence is Alt-Gr, e, =. For an umlaut a, it's Alt-Gr, a, ". For Trademark, it's AG, t, m, degrees, AG, o,o, and so forth. The thorn is AG, t, h - surprise! Oh yes, and AG,!,! gives you the Spanish inverted exclamation point. Sterling is AG,L,-. so Campbell's covered.

Reflecting on the lack of extended characters in modern printing, perhaps it's because modern authors don't know about these options. Old typewriters did tricks with the shift and backspace keys to render umlauts and circumflexes. Lacking a mechanical carriage that could be half-shifted, word-processing authors who couldn't make the effort never learned the proper way to enter these extended characters. And for that matter, electronic submission to publishers probably spent quite a few years pre-Unicode hamstrung with just the basic ASCII characters. Just my 2¢.

Oh, and before anyone points out that Windows has an alternative and shorter way to get to many characters, yes, I know. But… I haven't bothered to learn it. I only boot up Windows to do my taxes.
 
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