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Is Azure used very less in Java World compared to Dot Net ?

 
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Although Azure supports multiple programming languages ,mostly it is used with C# or Node.js. This is different from the case of AWS where Java is used a lot.

Is Azure used very less in Java world as compared to Dot Net.

Thanks
 
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Probably. However, Microsoft has been investing heavily in Java over the last few years. For example, they added Java to Azure Functions last year. So I would expect C# to have much greater use being given a head start.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:So I would expect C+ to have much greater use being given a head start.



Did you mean C#?
 
Monica Shiralkar
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thanks.In our company, we use Azure cloud. When we were to write serverless Azure Functions, I proposed to use Java. However, it was decided to go for C#. For another requirement they were fine with Node.js. But for no requirements did they allow to do in Java. So wondering whether any Java developers really use Azure ?
 
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Yes, I meant C#. C+ was a typo. (edited my post)

wondering whether any Java developers really use Azure ?


*any*? absolutely!

There are a lot of criteria that go into choosing a language. I wonder if there was more to it than "Azure is MS so use C#". For example, maybe they have a heavy investment in C#? Or more C# developers? Or wrote something similar in C#?
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Thanks. So how much is Azure being used by java developers? Very less?
 
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I think you have the cart and the horse reversed.

It's not common to select a virtualization platform based on the programming language used. A true virtual machine has no particular bias as far as programming languages go. Unless maybe if you're virtualizing a Prime Corporation mini-computer, where the very hardware itself was optimized to run Fortran. But nobody's doing that.

The .Net language suite is generally favored on the Windows OS - regardless of whether the VM is Azure or VMWare. But that's because people who put Windows on production servers are generally pretty heavily invested in Microsoft's microcosm. And, as a manager one told me, in regards to Visual Basic versus Java: "VB programmers are a dime a dozen".

The reverse is not as true, since few are willing to risk running .Net on MacOS or Linux, despite the existence of the Mono platform. Microsoft never promised "Write Once/Run Anywhere", after all.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Holloway wrote:

It's not common to select a virtualization platform based on the programming language used. .


Thanks.
Yes, that is right for Virtual machines as well as many other cloud services. In my experience while working on Azure , I had experienced C# being preferred and Java avoided. The areas where I saw C# and not java being the choice were:

1) Azure Functions -. They have support for C#, Node.js and Java. However it was said that Java support is not mature. In one of the projects C# was chosen and in the other Node.js. But Java in none.
2) On searching tutorial for something the most direct search results are the Microsoft azure docs and those are heavily on C# and Dot Net.

These had made me think that although cloud is not tied to programming language but Java is hardly being used in Azure world as of now unlike AWS. May be because I saw only in my company and did not see outside of my organization how it happens.
 
Tim Holloway
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Monica Shiralkar wrote:However it was said that Java support is not mature.



Well, if your definition of "mature" is that you can call Microsoft for support, no. Microsoft has never forgiven the world for denying them the ability to hijack Java (J++) and they don't love Java.

On the other hand, Java on Windows support is available from Oracle, and Oracle is a Fortune Corporation and has been so for longer than Microsoft has. And Windows support for Java goes all the way back to when Sun Microsystems first designed Java and intended it to not only run on the Unix platforms that Sun supported, but also Windows and even IBM mainframes. That's the "Write Once/Run Anywhere" feature of Java.

The reasons for avoiding Java on Windows systems have more to do with cheap plentiful, if relatively unskilled labour on .Net and JavaScript than because Java won't run properly on Windows. Because it does.

 
Monica Shiralkar
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So based on my experience at my company, my understanding is that as of today, Java is not used much with Azure. Is my understanding correct or incorrect?
 
Tim Holloway
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I would not venture to say. Java has more competition, but since Java is about the most secure and powerful (in terms of external libraries) language platforms around, it's not unreasonable for big ships that are otherwise obsessed with Microsoft technology to run Java apps in Azure. It would vary with the organization.

As long-time moderator of the Tomcat forum, I often get queries about Tomcat under Windows.
 
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Monica Shiralkar wrote:So based on my experience at my company, my understanding is that as of today, Java is not used much with Azure. Is my understanding correct or incorrect?


It should go without saying that experience at a single company is just anecdotal, based on which one can deduce just about nothing.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Moores wrote:

Monica Shiralkar wrote:So based on my experience at my company, my understanding is that as of today, Java is not used much with Azure. Is my understanding correct or incorrect?


It should go without saying that experience at a single company is just anecdotal, based on which one can deduce just about nothing.



Thanks. Yes. Also, my question is less of what should happen and possibly in future. Instead, my question is more about what practically is happening as of today. Is what has been deduced by me wrong or right ?  (as of today )?
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Holloway wrote: Java is about the most secure and powerful (in terms of external libraries)



I have heard this often but could not understand. If java has a library for something, for that same thing in other language also you would somehow find a library for doing it (because everything can be done in every langauge somehow ). So how do we say that it has powerful libraries ?
 
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Not only is there the standard Java® API (Sun→Oracle), but also external libraries which make up for perceived deficiencies in the standard downloads, e.g. Apache Commons. More recently, other large companies have started developing similar libraries, including Google and Amazon. I think IBM have produced similar libraries, but I am not certain. IBM were however (not certain) a large stakeholder in the original development of Eclipse.
 
Tim Holloway
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Just because you can do something in an external library doesn't mean that someone has.

The 3 languages I can think of that have truly extensive third-party library support are Perl (CPAN), Python (Cheese Shop or whatever it's called now), and Java. Not even C/C++ can boast such extensive support, and, indeed, the set of standard C and C++ universal libraries has been quite limited until fairly recently. Nor is there any real central resource for locating such assets that I know of.

Perl is an example of thinking you are richer than you are. Often CPAN modules contain C or even assembler code that must be compiled in order to use them. And not infrequently, since that sort of work has to be maintained on a per-platform basis. a very useful CPAN module will end up broken and thus unexpectedly useless.

Python does a certain amount of that, but in the Linux world at least, I've seen a lot less breakage.

Java, of course, runs in Java, which is OS- and hardware-independent in most cases.

In addition to the core JVM classes, there have been several major sources for third-party libraries. Apache/jakarta being one of the best known, but I used to get a lot of stuff from codehaus, and tigris.org among other places. Anything major has been submitted to maven.org so it's then just a matter of placing a dependency in a Maven build file (or the equivalent for alternative build tools like gradle).
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Thanks. Yes.
My doubt is that what different comes in case of languages where you do not have wide set of libraries like java. I mean still you would be able to do that in other language as well somehow. So does that mean without such large set of libraries if you want to such a thing in other language then you may have to write greater lines of code for the same thing and it is less easier?
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Holloway wrote: few are willing to risk running .Net on MacOS or Linux, despite the existence of the Mono platform. Microsoft never promised "Write Once/Run Anywhere", after all.



Yes, as of today. In future , I guess things may change as Dot Net core is becoming prominent which is platform independent.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Are there any reason/s when a team may choose Azure over AWS if they are into Java?
 
Tim Moores
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The decision to use azure or aws is independent of the programming language used, so it has no bearing on whether or not Java is used, and vice versa.

I, too, see little interest in using dot net on non windows platforms, and don't think that will change a lot.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Moores wrote:The decision to use azure or aws is independent of the programming language used, so it has no bearing on whether or not Java is used, and vice versa.



Thanks.


I, too, see little interest in using dot net on non windows platforms, and don't think that will change a lot



But now Dot Net core is platform independent.

 
Tim Moores
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As Tim H said, Mono has existed for a long time without taking the world by storm. I don't see the actual Dot Net -rather than Mono- being available making much of a difference.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Moores wrote:As Tim H said, Mono has existed for a long time without taking the world by storm. I don't see the actual Dot Net -rather than Mono- being available making much of a difference.



and what may have been the reason for this to have been, despite Dot Net now having platform independence?
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:However, Microsoft has been investing heavily in Java over the last few years. For example, they added Java to Azure Functions last year



This article was written in 2019 and I am pretty sure that in 2018 itself, I had run an example of Azure Function using Java in Eclipse for my self learning and deployed on Azure Portal. (Although in our company it was decided to go with C# and we had gone with it).  So, I think it was available since earlier but announcement happened later. May be what I had used was the preview version.
 
Tim Holloway
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Monica Shiralkar wrote:

Tim Moores wrote:As Tim H said, Mono has existed for a long time without taking the world by storm. I don't see the actual Dot Net -rather than Mono- being available making much of a difference.



and what may have been the reason for this to have been, despite Dot Net now having platform independence?



Dot Net has very close integration with the Microsoft Windows API and is optimised for Windows development. They tried to do that with Java when they produced J++ and Sun was so alarmed that they sued Microsoft - and won. Which is why Windows has no native Java support like a "Java.Net" or even pre-installed Java on Windows.

The slippery slope here is that especially in GUI apps, given an awkward or even non-existent API for some sort of function and a handy library that only runs on Windows and uses Windows elements such as hWnd's, a .Net "portable" app can swiftly mutate into a Windows-only app. Plus, Microsoft is infamous for changing critical services. I think they might have gone through about 5 different "standard" database interfaces of varying degrees of incompatibility while Java worked with JDBC. Don't even get me started on external APIs for Excel.

Tomboy Notes was a GUI "sticky note" desktop application with hyperlinking abilities. It's a nice app, but it was written in C#.Net and ran under Mono on Linux. This disturbed the Linux community so much that they re-write the app as a native Linux app in C++ as the "gNote" accessory.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Thanks. So means despite it being called platform independent, as of now dependencies remain with windows and may not change in near future.
 
Tim Moores
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No, it doesn't mean that. DotNet is available for macOS and Linux, and -despite having no personal experience with it- I'm sure it actually runs on those platforms. But it'll always be geared to run best on Windows, and if that's not your primary target platform, there's no good reason to use it on other platforms.
 
Tim Holloway
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That reminds me of the critical difference between Java and .Net. And yes, Tomboy Notes (a .Net app) ran very well on Linux and I think that there's another app I currently run often that's in .Net, though I forget which one.

But Java was created by Sun as a cross-platform language environment to the point where no matter how popular a feature is, if it isn't "write once, run anywhere" it's not allowed in Java. In fact, it took years just to get Java to support OS environment variables and then only because you can consider the case where an OS doesn't support an environment to be the same as having an empty environment.

Although Solaris/SunOS was a software product at Sun, Sun was primarily a hardware company with no vested in their OS on other hardware (originally, anyway). Microsoft, on the other hand, has a great deal invested in Windows (even if they don't appear to be showing it these days!) and thus was a lot less trustworthy regarding portability.

Microsoft has historically been known for a policy called "Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish", where they buy into a new technology, add Micosoft-specific enhanccements to it and eventually lock people into the extended version, extinguishing the competition. That's precisely what they aimed for with J++ and it's why they got slapped down so hard. Nobody wants to fall into the same trap with .Net.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Tim Moores wrote: But it'll always be geared to run best on Windows



Yes, for sure as of now but one day things may change if they are progressing in that direction too.
 
Tim Moores
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Yes, things could change, but I doubt it. Microsoft is interested in developers creating windows apps, not developers using Microsoft tools to target other platforms.
 
Monica Shiralkar
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Understood. Thanks
 
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