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Until We Meet Again

 
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One thing that drives me nuts.

I learned the following usage guidelines for the English Term "Until" (examples):

Until she gets here with the pizza, we can eat only these stale chips.  (At the moment she arrives and places the pizza on the counter, we can say "Hi, thanks!" and then eat some pizza).

Until you passed the 815 exam, you could not take the 816 exam.

Many, many people are using the term differently (often, but not always from the Indian Subcontinent):

"Until Java 8, Java used rt.jar and had no concept of modules."

I would say either:
"Until Java 9, Java used rt.jar and had no concept of modules."
or
"Thru Java 8, Java used rt.jar and had no concept of modules."

A minor saving grace is that people who use the alternate usage for 'until' seem to use it consistently.

They will always use it to describe the last time that state of affairs didn't apply, instead of the first one where it did.

"Until I was 20, I could not legally purchase beer at the Saloon."

never:

"Until I was 21, I could not legally purchase beer at the Saloon."

It would be even worse if they used the word inconsistently, but it still drives me nuts.

For example, when communicating with these worthy individuals, should I change my own usage to match theirs??

To get geekier (this was actually a very real problem I am describing, so not sure it belongs in MD)...

it is like confusing [2, 5] and [2, 5) in programming.

If you specify an open-range where you meant closed-range or vice versa, we consider that a flat-out programming error.
Java has gotten better recently in allowing us to be explicit in which we mean in some of the newer API's.

Anyway, I am again watching someone who knows way more Java than me, but misuses this and other common English terms.

Driving me nuts.

Well, until we meet again...
Wait until your father gets home....
 
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Jesse Silverman wrote:. . . "Until Java 9, Java used rt.jar and had no concept of modules." . . .

I think I would say, “Before Java9, there was no concept of modules.”

. . . Wait until your father gets home. . . .

That's a cop‑out. Mum can tell the child off just as well as Dad.
 
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Now that you mention it, I have no idea which of those two versions of "until" I would use. Perhaps it's because, like Campbell, I would use "before" instead. It's much easier when "until" refers to a future event, as with your pizza lady.

Still thinking about it... I might say "Until Obama was elected", which is unambiguous, but not "Until 2013", which isn't. I hadn't noticed that ambiguous usage before but I would suggest that clarification would be in order when it occurs.
 
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:That's a cop‑out. Mum can tell the child off just as well as Dad.


Unfortunately, the implied corollary is "…and takes his belt off".

Note that actually corporal punishment has been widely condemned because it A) doesn't actually teach children to behave so much as to learn to avoid punishment (which isn't the same thing) and B) promotes the concept of abuse as an "inherited" trait. And that's not even considering the cruelty of anticipation.
 
Tim Holloway
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Paul Clapham wrote:
Still thinking about it... I might say "Until Obama was elected", which is unambiguous, but not "Until 2013", which isn't. I hadn't noticed that ambiguous usage before but I would suggest that clarification would be in order when it occurs.


I think in both cases, the interpretation of "until" is, mathematically speaking, ">=".
 
Jesse Silverman
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Yikes.  You guys go dark quick!

I was thinking of this maybe when I typed it (and forgot that the word was 'til, not the full until):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wait_Till_Your_Father_Gets_Home

Tom Bosley was about as terrifying in that as he was in Happy Days.

I always think of there being three family animations (pre-Simpsons):
The Flintstones (pre-historic)
The Jetsons (futuristic)
WTYFGH (the Present, i.e. Nixon vs. McGovern days)

The funniest thing is that when I think about what the WWW means to me...back in Engineering School I remembered that show had been on when we were babies/toddlers.
Nobody else did.
I described it to literally dozens, probably scores of people.
They all said I was nuts, there never was such a thing, or they would have known about it / remembered it.
They had just forgotten, obviously, I didn't fake that link.

But I spent weeks trying to find even one other person who remembered it existed.
I tried to look stuff up at the library and came up with ZERO, like, nothing.

I gave up, even tho I could swear I half remembered the song in my head.

Such was life pre-WWW.

I don't know if it was an important show, but I never forgot the month where nobody else admitted the show had ever existed, and I had basically no way to disprove them.

There's something or other important illustrated by that.

Cheers!
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Jesse Silverman wrote:. . . that the word was 'til, not the full until . . .

When I was at primary school, I would have lost a mark for writing 'til; there were two synonymous words, until and till. The latter is a homophone and homograph for words meaning dig and kitty. The kitty not being a cat, but a place where money is kept.
 
Jesse Silverman
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I can't defend the authors except to say that their show ran for three seasons.

In my defense, I feel like I only remembered the title because of the song, which I only remembered by ear.

I couldn't picture the title in writing.

At least I remembered it had existed, tho, in a way that now with the internet is trivial to look up.

This does relate to work-related and ranch-related stuff to some extent.

Remembering every last detail of everything is optional, as much as I would like to have instant recall of everything whilst coding and in particular, on interviews and timed tests, etc.

Remembering what something is called, and where you can look up the details, is the most important part outside of those weird, odd, closed-booked tightly-timed tests, so that is my long-term focus.

But I am going on lots of timed, closed-book interviews, and taking lots of tests.

I kid you not, even though I could explain the implications of ACID and what we wanted to get out of it, it was made very clear that I had failed one interview because I couldn't tell them what each of the letters in the acronym stood for recently.  I told them it was just on-the-spot pressure, and half an hour later I would remember not just the jist of it but the details, which turned out to be true.

We can say "Who wants to work for such jerks?" but the salary and benefits were quite good, and I am still seeking employment.

So, wanting to remember acronyms isn't just a sign of OCD (lol) for some reason people want to hire programmers with great memory and instant recall.

I can read the room, I can tell the difference between "Who cares if you remember the acronym or not?" meant seriously, "Don't feel bad about it?" said to make the interviewee feel better, and "Yeah, no, you aren't remembering it, we are deeply disappointed."  It was that third one.  Similar for things like remembering what each letter of Featherstone's SOLID acronym stand for as a stand-in for whether you are good at OOPS design, because they only have five or ten minutes to try to evaluate that and then move on to the next candidate.

"Rot, rubbish, figs!"  Whatever.
 
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