Is certification just a piece of paper?

[Syed AliRaza Zaidi]

Humm A good debated topic but If ur question is
Is certification just a piece of paper ?
I would say no because certification is a process of getting certificate and certificate is just peice of paper but this piece of paper can determine priority level for interview but from intrview till getting in to organization is your skill which you have developed during your career and as well as during certification Process
----------------------------
17 Year old guy With XMind

[Andres Gonzalez]

whats the most famous and prestigious university in Australia?

sorry guys I caught this topic late. I'm in Brisbane, but I think Sydney Uni and Melbourne Uni have good reputation.
I studied at Bond Uni, Gold Coast...hmmm..... chicks everywhere

[Matthew Anderson]

how about monash uni?

[Al Newman]

Hiyah, Ben. Just got back from the interview. Made it a long day out and bought some good books.
The book I am referring to (Guerilla Tactics in the Job Market) is this one:

Guerilla Tactics
The title is slightly different than the edition I used but it's the same book. No mention of the internet but otherwise an extremely streetwise book. A kind soul of an HR person told me to go read it at a time when I was more discouraged than Billy is, and using the 'tactics' turned things around within a month.

Alfred, as someone experiencing it first hand, what are your views on the IT job market in the UK at the moment - I am J2EE developer (Java 3 years, J2EE 1 year) currently in Oz pondering whether or not the grass is greener in the UK. Based on the offerings in Jobserve I am tempted to return.

The job market in the UK has basically sucked as hard as it can since January 2001. But..... we may be hitting an inflection point. I've been focussing on certification and skills development pretty hard lately and have not been working the market hard. Even so, I'm getting a lot of cold calls and emails from recruiters, and 3-4 interviews a month. Which is a lot for someone not pushing that hard right now.
My interview today was with the MD of a smallish consultantcy (80 people) in the City, and he said he's seeing a solid expansion in demand. He said he could increase his development staff 70% right now without having anyone left on the bench, which is pretty strong demand.
I'm not sure how well it went though. We hit it off well personally, but I may have faffed up the RUP part of things. Oye veh......
I don't know whether telecoms is picking up. That's another big part of the London market, and it was stoney dead. But I did get a call from a recruiter on behalf of a mobile operator in Wiltshire this week, so maybe. Don't forget the cost of living in dear old London. Your quality of life will probably go down. A good argument for Wiltshire I suppose.
[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Al Newman]

Can you recommend a resource for the Weblogic Certification - I was going to go for "J2EE Applications and BEA WebLogic Server", Girdley et al.

Ben, I am going to answer this question on the thread Chris referred us to.
https://coderanch.com/t/66305/BEA-Weblogic/News
See you over there....

[Ben Sullivan]

Thanks Alfred - useful stuff. If I did come home I'd be looking to work outside of London anyway.
Jobserve seemed to return quite a few results for roles in England outside London.
However the question remains, is the ratio of job seekers with my level of experience to jobs available greater in Australia or UK? Who knows for sure - I guess the only way to find out is to try. I am not even making it to interviews at the moment which is very troubling indeed.

[Billy Tsai]

my question is how do you get to work for a respectable company and in our case a respectable software company like Sun, Lucent technology, CA, Quest Software, Oracle,Peace Software .....etc
what does it take to work in those kinds of companies with a permanent position and good renumeration???
instead of taking contract works and one projects after another until no more projects or cases to take and then u get fired!

[HS Thomas]

Hi Billy,

Tell

Sun, Lucent technology, CA, Quest Software, Oracle,Peace Software .....etc

what it is you can do for them.
That's hard , isn't it ?
Alfred's advice about aiming for the smaller company is very sound. There's less competition there I'd imagine and your target would be specific..
About the bigger companies, you'd only really be able to judge once you get through the door , what the requisites are to make it in the company . You will be surprised! You must be able to fit in. One tip I've heard of is to go to the office to make a general enquiry during a lunch break, and see what type of people come out.
Obviously you'd be heading for offices where software development takes place. Find out whether it's systems related development or consultancy. Pitch your application to the right level. You can practise this at companies local to you. This gives you a chance to be prepared for the interview and you stand a better chance.
By doing a practical application(project) using their technology your chances will be increased.
Lucky Alfred already has interviews to go to, so has started building a profile.
You could also start collecting a list of adverts for developer jobs from select companies.
If the adverts ask for a variant technology you know what additional know-how increases your chances.Companies hate to spend time training recruits.
When you've found a company you think you like , just step up and ask for an appointment to see Mr.So-and-So about an application he may be interested in or even just an idea.
They may ask you to send something on paper or CD but that may lead to an interview.
Looking for temporary work in the meantime may be a better course. No one has 10 year plans at the moment.As you know , people with work experience are preferable to those without.
regards
[ July 12, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Al Newman]

my question is how do you get to work for a respectable company and in our case a respectable software company like Sun, Lucent technology, CA, Quest Software, Oracle,Peace Software .....etc
what does it take to work in those kinds of companies with a permanent position and good renumeration???

One suggestion I would make is to improve your writing a little. Write in proper sentences and paragraphs and capitalize the first letter of your sentences....
Billy, I've worked for some of those 'proper places', and they are not necessarily better or more stable places than an 'unstable' contracting gig is. For example Lucent and it's erstwhile rival Nortel Networks. I contracted for Lucent twice and contracted and worked for Nortel (seperate gigs a decade apart).
Both Nortel and Bell Labs (Lucent) were great places to work the first time(s) around. By the time I arrived at Lucent in '95 it was pretty much a hellhole, though that may have been specific to my project. Nortel was still growing strongly when I left it in the summer of 2000 but the signs of crisis were clear even then (to me at least).
Both Lucent and Nortel Networks almost went bankrupt last year. They both dumped more than 40% of their workforce over the last 3 years. Sun and Oracle workers have had similar if less apoplyctic experiences.
CA has a reputation of being a bit of a hellhole, as does Oracle. I don't know much about Quest or Peace Software.
If you want my opinion, Billy, I think some of the best places to work in this business are medium-sized software developers, companies with between 10 and 100 developers. Large enough to have some stability but small enough for their people not to feel like an ant in an anthill.
How do you get into the desireable jobs? Get experience. In times like these this means landing jobs with the kind of small shops which I've been trying to get you to consider. After two years of experience anyone will look at you. Including Sun, Oracle, et al. If you still wish to work at these places. But one of the best ways to gather experience is to work as a free-lance for a while. You will get a range of experience which a Sun Microsystems will probably never give you.

instead of taking contract works and one projects after another until no more projects or cases to take and then u get fired!

Contract work isn't that bad. I did it for a decade and may well end up doing a contract gig this time around. Though the bulk of my recent interviews have been for permy work. Getting laid off from a contract gig is not 'getting fired'. It's the expected outcome, and you should prepare for it. Lot's of clients will give you tons of notice: A month is pretty typical and I've had up to 6 months notice!
I've been FAR better treated as a contractor than as a permanent employee at times, though I'll admit I've never seen an employer who treated contractors better than their permanent employees. One I recall used to fire contractors with 5 minutes notice. Employees got 4 hours. Then they wondered why people weren't loyal to them?....
If they are decent people that decency will be reflected in their treatment of both contract and perm employees. And if they are not, the same pattern will follow....
P.S. Billy, why haven't you mentioned the biggest, most stable company of all? Microsoft....
If I wanted to work for a real biggy, I'd choose Micro$oft as #1. Cisco, Vodaphone, or Nokia are others. Go with the market leader.
[ July 12, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Billy Tsai]

I hate VB, ASP, C# , .NET
and I dont like Microsoft but I dont know why I just dont like that company at all unless they want to give me money for nothing.....
There are also some companies that are good computer makers like Acer, Asus etc.. they have a pretty big IT department too are positions in there are usually permanent
and major chip and semiconductor maker like TSMC, UMC but those company want ppl with at least master degree for their J2EE developer ,Oracle DBA and CRM postions.

[Andres Gonzalez]

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
I hate VB, ASP, C# , .NET...

Me too.. I don't think I'd be able to work for microsoft, it's not my philosophy. But hey, the world and life change so fast that you can't underestimate this company, not even their technologies. I started a few weeks ago learning c# (at least understanding the syntax..), there's gonna be a lot of market for this language, since every company that has microsoft products will eventually use it, and it's not about whether you like or not, you've got to survive and open your mind to different alternatives...

[Amer Khan]

quote: Andres
-----------------------------------------------
there's gonna be a lot of market for this language, since every company that has microsoft products will eventually use it, and it's not about whether you like or not, you've got to survive and open your mind to different alternatives...
==============================================
Well said Andres.

"C# certainly learned great deal from JAVA .But then Java learned a great deal from C++,which owed its syntax to C,which in turn was built on lessons learned in other languages.We all stand on shoulders of giants."
Jesse Liberty

Personally i have no grudge against MS or any other company."you've got to survive and open your mind to different alternatives...".Don’t forget that we have to pay our bills ourselves.
BTW i have passed the Microsoft Certified C# .Net Windows Application Programmer exam.
[ July 13, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

[HS Thomas]

If you want my opinion, Billy, I think some of the best places to work in this business are medium-sized software developers, companies with between 10 and 100 developers. Large enough to have some stability but small enough for their people not to feel like an ant in an anthill.

Examples of a small company's "humble" beginnings :
Searchspace

Previously, Jason was a founder of the Intelligent Systems Lab at University College London and he is considered an international authority on intelligent systems. He holds a PhD in Computing from University College London.

, now have opened offices worldwide.
Current list of
customers:
This is serious stuff.
Your regular companies like Oracle, IBM, M$ also have hundreds of "Labs" like these. That is one of the reasons such huge dinosaurs survive.
regards
[ July 13, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Kathy Sierra]

Everybody's given such awesome advice here, so I can't add anything on the "how to look and where to look" front (and Alfred, *you* could write a book about this! You rock.)
So I'll just add my little bit on the personal/social side. I've spent a LOT of time as both a contract developer and an employee, and for all sizes of companies. I've had some of my best experiences with teeny little companies, even when I KNEW that we existed just to do one single project. Yes, it's more stressful to be a contractor sometimes, because as you're finishing one project you often have to start thinking about how to get your next one (or IF you'll get your next one...) but I've never had so much fun, and the freedom and flexibility was worth it. Plus, if you hate your teammates, you know you don't have to live with them for the next decade
For Sun, I started as a contractor, then went to full-time employee, then recently went back to contractor status. I've been a project manager (although I wasn't a very good one... I just wanted to design and develop and write code, not manage *people*) but mostly a developer. I've worked on tiny projects and on huge projects, and on really strange projects like one game where there were 300 people on the development team, and only ONE programmer (me). The other 299 were graphic designers, sound designers, animators, writers, etc. Since in Hollywood at the time, *everybody* was a 'creative talent', as the sole programmer I was treated like a goddess. But then I ended up at another place where programmers were swarming everywhere and the *artists* were treated like kings and worshipped in awe.
But in all this variety, I've had so much fun and learned a lot. Sometimes there is a LOT to be said for working at different places and with a lot of different people, especially early in your career, because you get a much broader perspective. When I meet people who have worked for only one or two companies ever, they don't always have as much of a flexible view, and they often aren't as able to inject new ideas and energy into their next job. Each job I've had, contract or otherwise, I've been able to bring ideas from previous ones... often some really obvious things that long-time employees just never thought of, but that were the norm somewhere else.
Once you're in one place too long, you can forget that there can be OTHER ways of doing things. On the other hand, when you're in a long-term stable job, you can relax and perhaps focus more on the work (although very few of those exist in the tech world at the moment... when I first joined Sun, the thought of layoffs was unheard of. Sun didn't even know HOW to do layoffs, because they really never had. Well, they have a lot of experience with it now
So, I think there are pros and cons to all types of work -- contract vs. employee, and small company vs. large. I wouldn't dismiss any of them.
Anyway, in nearly all jobs that I've had (all in the US), the one factor that came up over and over again by hiring managers was this:
"Would we want to work with this person?" "Would we like having them around?" "Would they work well on the team?" and even, "Do they have a good attitude?"
The managers can talk all day long about how nothing matters but your skill and experience and knowledge, but that is simply not true when it comes time to choose!
With a contract job, that is much less so, but with an employee position, that company (and perhaps that manager) has to LIVE with you, possibly for a long, long time. So when you go in to interview, I would keep at the front of your mind these questions, "What kind of person do I like to be around? What kind of person do I like to spend time with? What kind of attitudes annoy me? How can I present myself as the kind of person that people like and want to be around, and feel good about? How can I make this person have confidence in me?"
Time after time, a positive attitude wins out. And you can't usually fake it. Enthusiasm and passion will shine through, and when you have enthusiasm and passion, this usually means that you will want to do a good job because you care about the work rather than just for the paycheck. This tells a manager that you won't have to require constant supervision.
Imagine that each person you interview with is holding a sign that says, "How can you make MY job easier?"
So, even while you are telling the interviewer what you can do for the company, when you get to the person who you might actually be working for, focus LESS on what you can do for the company and MORE on what you can do for the team and your supervisor (not directly, but just make sure that you project the qualities that tells the manager, "Ah... someone I do not have to babysit, someone who is self-motivated, wants to learn and improve, and is fun to be around. Or at *least* not negative, grumpy, moody, etc.
Think of the people you enjoy being around. What qualities do they have? Chances are, your prospective manager or co-workers feel the same way. They want to know that you will be a good team worker. NOBODY wants to be around complainers.
Also, complaints about a former boss or co-worker are almost always big red flags to prospective employers, so if you don't have good things to say about your former work places in an interview, don't say anything about them at all (or keep it very professional).
You want to make it seem like you take responsibility for your work and your environment, rather than expecting The Company or Your Boss to make things better.
OK, I may NOT be representing something that is true anywhere outside the US, and in fact, most of my work life is on the west coast of California, which has its own set of laid-back/surfing/positive attitudes and rules, so this may not really apply anywhere else.
But still, sales people from all over the world will tell you that most people will tend to move toward things that can make their own life better. Your hiring manager is probably not immune to that fundamental psychological fact. Think like a sales person or an advertiser. Make them *want* you, even if they aren't entirely sure why... and to do that, you really have to find out what motivates the hiring manager. So don't forget to ask THEM questions! Anything you can do to make *him* ( or her) look good or have a more pleasant time at work is a big plus.
cheers and best of luck in the Great Adventure Job Hunt,
Kathy
p.s. for us somewhat *older* folks, sometimes you can look back and see that your best work experiences were not the ones you would have initially chosen. Be open to surprises and unexpected lessons.

[Billy Tsai]

I was forced to use C# and VB when I was in university to do the group projects and assignment, so basically I was using those languages for about 1 year and that .NET remoting thing is not that great either , I just didn't like the way they look and how they works even though they were simpler and easier than Java.............
also another diffcult language I was forced to use and learn was alpha assembly, its the most diffcult language I even learned and I didn't like it either but somehow I was able to master it better than C# and VB because I managed to complete the assignments in assembly all by myself instead of getting help from other ppl like what I did in C# and VB assignments.
BUT by now I probably have forgot all the details of aplha asm, C# and VB because I haven't been using or even look at them since I graduated I have mainly concentrated on Java.

[Matt Cao]

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
There are also some companies that are good computer makers like Acer, Asus etc.. they have a pretty big IT department too are positions in there are usually permanent
and major chip and semiconductor maker like TSMC, UMC but those company want ppl with at least master degree for their J2EE developer ,Oracle DBA and CRM postions.

Hi Billy,
I work for a largest notebook maker company on the world in Taiwan. I am not even live there, I prefer US. I deal with international clients, company, and vendors on almost all issues related to technical, quality, business logic, and logistic. I am lucky than you because I have electronics engineering background. I can work with computers hardware and software. Internet technologies still a new playground for me. As far as I know, an advance degree serves its purpose and I suspect that you want a top bill position. Be humble young man.
The reason certain company prefer some entry developers with master degree because there are too many Chinese descendant overseas want to go back to Taiwan or China for opportunities. It creates supply over demand.
If you prefer a challenge projects, I truely recommend you start from a small to medium size company. Big companies outsource the works out to the those specialty companies anyway.
I do not know what drug did you used in college, there is no such thing as permanent position. Even the company owner, if he's not on top all the critical issues, he will be replace too that I mean in a private company.
The reason why some people jobs look like permanent because they know how to navigate their careers.
Regards,
MCao

[Andres Gonzalez]

The reason why some people jobs look like permanent because they know how to navigate their careers.

good point ...

[Billy Tsai]

is ur company Quanta computer?
I know there is no way to get a high position for a starter usually a low level position and have to work hard out for the first year or 2.
I just wanna have a good start so the future will be more secure.

[bill bux]

Dear Billy Tsai,

You are great!

[Amer Khan]

Billy,

Unfortunately the IT industry of mid-2003 knows with horrible clarity that it has fallen from grace.
The big job in IT now is cutting out waste and mismanagement, not exploring the new frontiers!
So my friend please concentrate on getting a job (any job).


[ July 15, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

[HS Thomas]

Kathy , YOU rock! And Alfred , too. Just how old is *old*?
Even though this article is dated Dec 2001,
the contents are so true.
If you are a small company, you could find that customers prefer to deal with large companies. As soon as a small company is in a position to negotiate get talking /partnered with the big ones.They'd throw their tools in for free.
Seeking Survival
This is where doing the certification helps.
The certifications are based on specifications(Java , EJB , J2EE).
Vendors implement the specification in their tools (enhanced with tools from small company tool developers). It's almost unheard of that small companies make it on their own.
If a small company has a really good idea, the big ones come knocking on their door.
Question is, do they go it alone or partner or sell up ?
If you've done the certifications at least you've shown that you understand something about the technology and projects/work experience show that you can apply that knowledge.
regards
[ July 14, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Al Newman]

Kathy (Cowgirl):

Everybody's given such awesome advice here, so I can't add anything on the "how to look and where to look" front (and Alfred, *you* could write a book about this! You rock.)

HS Thomas:

Kathy , YOU rock! And Alfred , too. Just how old is *old*?

Oooh that's great for the ego! (buff nails)
How old? Err.... 44?
Kathy:

But in all this variety, I've had so much fun and learned a lot. Sometimes there is a LOT to be said for working at different places and with a lot of different people, especially early in your career, because you get a much broader perspective. When I meet people who have worked for only one or two companies ever, they don't always have as much of a flexible view, and they often aren't as able to inject new ideas and energy into their next job. Each job I've had, contract or otherwise, I've been able to bring ideas from previous ones... often some really obvious things that long-time employees just never thought of, but that were the norm somewhere else.

Yes, this surprised me when I first learned it some years ago. I met a guy on a contract job who had a background to die for. MSCS from Stanford followed 5 years at Bell Labs. He should have been god-like in his powers. I had an econ degree from a decent state university with five years working at the School of Hard Knocks. Funny thing, he was narrower than hell and couldn't think out of the Box very well. He'd learned one thing very well but most software development isn't one thing, or even a dozen things!
Kathy:

"Would we want to work with this person?" "Would we like having them around?" "Would they work well on the team?" and even, "Do they have a good attitude?"
The managers can talk all day long about how nothing matters but your skill and experience and knowledge, but that is simply not true when it comes time to choose!

One of the best managers I ever saw gave me a completely non-technical 'technical interview' before hiring me for a contract gig. I asked him why he asked no technical questions, and his reply was perceptive. He said he could tell from my resume that I could do the work, what he needed to learn was whether I would fit with his team! He was right. I loved working with that outfit!

Time after time, a positive attitude wins out. And you can't usually fake it. Enthusiasm and passion will shine through

This is true, although with practice one can usually find something to be enthusiatic about! Sometimes you will only learn that in the interview!
I just learned that I've made it to the second round with a consultantcy based in the City (financial district of London). I think the deciding factor was my enthusiasm. I know some people from this company (from my JUG), and they present a picture of a very strongly Java-based consultantcy. So I'm excited about working with them.

Imagine that each person you interview with is holding a sign that says, "How can you make MY job easier?"

Yes, Yes, YES!!!

[Matt Cao]

Hi Billy,
Yes, it is. Your daydream is far too common with hundred-thousand other candidates. Follow our advices, one day you will thank us for. No big company will pick you up with your current predicament, unless your dad invest a huge sum amount of money into the company or your chemistry mesh well with someone from the inside.
Good Lucks,
MCao

[HS Thomas]

Alfred:

How old? Err.... 44?

There's hope for some of us ,then.
Or were you guessing Kathy's age?
Glad you made it to the 2nd round. Good luck!
About those University types who don't quite hack it, I guess, some have not quite made the transition from *Don* world to the real world.
But some great stuff come out of Universities as one of my previous posts show. They have a certain nurturing environment that you don't find at many companies. (More's the pity.)
Companies tend to move rapidly through new ideas and often miss the whole point of some of them.
It'll be interesting to see the varied roles implementations of EJBs.

regards

[Al Newman]

There's hope for some of us ,then.
Or were you guessing Kathy's age?
Glad you made it to the 2nd round. Good luck!

Nope, a gentleman never asks. Or speculates....
Thanks for the good wishes. I've needed them lately. I've gone from completely potching my first two interviews after getting dumped to almost landing the last 3-4 jobs. This one is the best company I've seen recently, so I'm really hoping on this one.

But some great stuff come out of Universities as one of my previous posts show. They have a certain nurturing environment that you don't find at many companies. (More's the pity.)
Companies tend to move rapidly through new ideas and often miss the whole point of some of them.
It'll be interesting to see the varied roles implementations of EJBs.

I think that's true. And I'm not one to sneer at the work being done at the best universities. All the same it's my perception that one can stagnate in places like Bell Labs, and this fellow showed that. Time was when I would have given a lot to take a MSE at someplace like Berkeley or CMU as much for working on the bleeding edge research work as for the curriculum.

About those University types who don't quite hack it, I guess, some have not quite made the transition from *Don* world to the real world.

I'm not sure what this means. The guy was very smart, but he gave up on things way too easily! "I don't know how to do that" was a typical quote. And yet he sometimes looked down on those who did know (or could figure it out on the fly).

But some great stuff come out of Universities as one of my previous posts show. They have a certain nurturing environment that you don't find at many companies. (More's the pity.)
Companies tend to move rapidly through new ideas and often miss the whole point of some of them.

This is very true. Software engineering and computer science are still great places to be, with amazing things still happening in higher ed.

[Billy Tsai]

software engineering is offered by the department of Engineering which also offers mechanical engineer, civil enginner, EE engineeing etc...
computer science is offered by the department of science and information system is offered by the department of commerce.
in some countries software engineering takes 4 years to do and computer science only take 3 years but some countries both degrees takes 4 years. However their master degree are all 2 years.

[Billy Tsai]

which company's certificate has that best paper quality?
the certificate's look, feel, colours etc...

[Amer Khan]

quote:Billy
------------------------------------------------
which company's certificate has that best paper quality?
the certificate's look, feel, colours etc...
-----------------------------------------
I got my SCJP1.2 certificate about 2years ago and it is ok(paper,look,feel)
The quality of PAPER of my SCWCD certificate is very ordinary. may be because its valid for only two yrs!!
comparison with other companies :
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

[Matthew Anderson]

The current paper quality of Java certification is so flimsy and soft. When I received my SCWCD via air mail, there were so many dents on the cert that I've to request for another one.
The another one that I receive is not perfect either. I've to iron it over a hanky to straighten it.
I still miss the previous Java cert. The feel, quality and color contrast was to my liking. The new one is too bright (yellow and blue??? yucks! ) and looks unprofessional.

[Amer Khan]

quote: Matthew Anderson
--------------------------
The new one is too bright (yellow and blue??? yucks! ) and looks unprofessional.
================================================


[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

[Pradeep bhatt]

weblogic.. it is simply great

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
which company's certificate has that best paper quality?
the certificate's look, feel, colours etc...

[Todd Killingsworth]

which company's certificate has that best paper quality?
the certificate's look, feel, colours etc...

Simple.... :roll:
The one that my current employer requires, or potential employer likes the most has the best of everything certs have to offer
Todd Killingsworth

[Billy Tsai]

I think the Oracle's certificates are the best ones i have seen so far, look formal and high quality paper with just right colouring

[HS Thomas]

Anyone following this link may have read about librarians ...
You should switch to thinking about cybrarians and cybrarian sciences.
Companies have also started debunking their librarians - Information specialists. It's all about finding information on-line nowadays.
So if you need to find information, go speak to a manager but also expect to be able to search online within the company.
regards
[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Jane Somerfield]

A senior IT worker (15 years) said to me that only
new graduates need certified. But EJB is just about
4 years. His 15 years experience is not worth much
in J2EE area. Right?

[Forrest Xu]

A senior IT worker (15 years) said to me that only
new graduates need certified. But EJB is just about
4 years. His 15 years experience is not worth much
in J2EE area.
I think It is helpful for a senior IT worker to get certificate.

[Steve Agarwal]

my inputs
Exams are not just to earn papers and to show your competence.
It gives and develop confidence in person.
It gives a over all and know how of many a topics.
It also boosts the confidence in the recruiter that one read something at some part of time and would be able to recognize the problem as the need arrises.
After all what all of us do is read books, work on application and develope code. So in a way exam makes us realise that we need to work and memorise it for some goal.
as per me exams have been a better way to lean and dig the problem rather than being on projects. ( where most of the time we are busy fixing based on intution )
To my know how any one would be more willing to take a certified person as it shows persons hard work in taking it. forget about the places where people get it by fake means.
I realish taking these exams as they give me a over all picture and little details about the components I have been playing with. Which later would help me be more productive from a over all perspective.
Dont forget they are being in place to test the general stuff.
I dont think the exprienced care for exams as new commers try to put in lot of effort.
so I stand by taking exams and learning more on a goal oriented basis.
my 2 cents
abhishek

[Randall Stevens]

That IT worker with 12+ years of experience must not be looking for work in the current economy.
Certifications have their place, just as degrees have their place. I say that if you wish to get certified, look at your reasoning behind doing so.
If you are getting certified because you think it will make you more money, don't waste your time.