H1-B activism or hope things get better?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
I understand there is always a group of such citizens who blame on other non-citizens, fortunately most Americans are not like that. From my observation, usually this small group of people are narrow-minded, be jealous of other immigrant's success, they don't know they should work hard to contribute. I know some of such citizens. they don't study hard, they don't work hard, they just want to claim benefit using their citizen tag. When they find they can't find a job, they blaim others.

This issue has nothing to do with immigrants. H-1B's are not immigrants. The H-1B visa is specifically for non-immigrant, temporary workers in "specialty" positions. While it is true that some H-1B's do seek permanent residency, that is not the intent of the visa (actually they can do this only because of something known as dual intent).
The US is a country built on immigration, so the more who come here with the purpose of seeking citizenship who are well-educated and highly skilled, the better off we all are. But the fact remains that this is not the purpose for the H-1B visa. The H-1B visa is also not intended to provide non-immigrant workers to compete for jobs which may be filled by citizens / legal residents. The purpose of the H-1B is to make up for a shortfall. The purpose of the H-1B was to fill a gap in the labor market that was not able to be filled by citizens / legal residents. This gap no longer exists.
The fact of the matter also is that the laws are being exploited by the employers for their own purposes to the detriment of citizens / legal residents. Congress, being in the pockets of the industry and only who only listen to the citizenry when they are well organized, facilitates these exploitations on the part of the employers.
So this has nothing to do with blaming others. This has nothing to do with problems with immigrant workers, as H-1B's are not immigrant workers. This has little to do with the workers period. It is about the industry and Congress.
The US is not some big employment office for the third world. The purpose of any government is to look after their own citizens. This is not happening in this case. Instead the government is looking after the best interest of private industry, and the citizens are getting screwed.
Bottom line, the conditions that the H-1B visa's only purpose is to correct, that being a labor gap in "specialty" areas that can't be filled by citizens / legal residents, no longer exists in the IT industry. As the reason for applying the H-1B visa to the IT industry is no longer valid, it must be terminated. What does this mean for the current holders of H-1B visas? IMHO, if they have submitted paper work for citizenship, then they should be allowed to stay until that paperwork is processed. If they have no intention of seeking citizenship, then their visas need to be terminated and they need to return to their country of origin.
So we all need to stop whining and crying about racism and all these "narrow-minded" people who are anti-immigrant. The last gasp of that which cannot be defended is to alledge racism. We are talking specifically about a visa being issued for temporary non-immigrant workers that was designed to do one thing, but instead has been perverted to serve other needs, and people are suffering because of it.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
I happened to see this thread and I feel I want to say a few words:
1. I cam eto this country several years ago as a graduate student, then I graudated with MS degree in CS major. Four years ago I started working in IT company and at that time I started using H1B visa. What I want to tell you is: Some of you don't understand this point --- H1B visa holder can change his/her status to permanent resident. It is 100% legally supported by law. There are several ways to obtain permanent residence: The most common way is employment based petition. This law has been practiced for many many many years. And there is another law saying once you are permanent resident, you can apply for citizen in 5 years. I guess that's why "flying jordan" saw his colleagues became citizens. They are all laws.
2. I don't understand why people claim H1B people get underpaid ? I am making fairly good salary, I don't want to give the number, but I know my salary is at top 25% of my team, 80% of team members are citizen developers. somebody said some H1B is paid at $7/hour ? I think that's the tip I paid to waiter in dinner.
3. The law requires a company to recruit for 10 days for a position and "among applicants" if that foreigner is the best candidate then he/she can be selected. So, it doesn't mean there is no better or equivalent citizens for that position country-wide. It all depends on the applicants for that position. For my position, I knew they interview four or five people totally, but I am sure I was the best. I am confident. That's why even I don't get involved in those American office politics, gossips, I get steady promotion based on my performance.
3. Don't think we H1B visa holders are stupid to take those underpaid wages. We don't.
4. We H1B visa holder have made much contribution to this country's economy. It is radiculous to let a H1B person go home even he/she is working on that position , just because some "patriots" want to make some rooms for citizen. Come on, you REALLY think this will work ?? I think the company will immediately be sued for discrimination. Oh, you want congress to force a nation-wide firing H1B people ? Well, if you are really as naive as that, I even don't want to comment on it... The fact will teach you...
5. I understand there is always a group of such citizens who blame on other non-citizens, fortunately most Americans are not like that. From my observation, usually this small group of people are narrow-minded, be jealous of other immigrant's success, they don't know they should work hard to contribute. I know some of such citizens. they don't study hard, they don't work hard, they just want to claim benefit using their citizen tag. When they find they can't find a job, they blaim others.

mike,
For a guy who thinks he is really smart, you have misspellings and two points numbered three. I guess your MSCS degree did not have a mathematics or writing requirement.
In this post, I�m addressing point one. I�ll address the others later.
The initial point is being missed. Whether or not the H1-B can or cannot become a permanent resident is not an issue at this point. The fact is many of them were brought here illegally. The companies lied to bring them here. So, they should have never been here in the first place.
While I'm not an expert on immigration law, I have known several H1-Bs who have been sent home. I do not think it is simply a matter of "hanging out" for so many years. From what I was told by one of my H1-B friends, they must be employed or go home. That may or may not be the case. That is what I was told.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
I happened to see this thread and I feel I want to say a few words:

2. I don't understand why people claim H1B people get underpaid ? I am making fairly good salary, I don't want to give the number, but I know my salary is at top 25% of my team, 80% of team members are citizen developers. somebody said some H1B is paid at $7/hour ? I think that's the tip I paid to waiter in dinner.

mike,
This has already been discussed in this thread. Since I do not want to repost, click here. It is the very first post on the page.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
3. The law requires a company to recruit for 10 days for a position and "among applicants" if that foreigner is the best candidate then he/she can be selected. So, it doesn't mean there is no better or equivalent citizens for that position country-wide. It all depends on the applicants for that position. For my position, I knew they interview four or five people totally, but I am sure I was the best. I am confident. That's why even I don't get involved in those American office politics, gossips, I get steady promotion based on my performance.

mike,
If you believe this, you are very naive. They are looking for cheap labor. There are so many blatant abuses of this law. One is the following:
"In 2001 Bank of America (BofA) in Charlotte, NC "outsourced" its Human Resources (HR) functions to a company called Exult. As part of the arrangement, the Bank of America employees supporting these functions were made Exult employees.
At the end of 2001, Exult announced it was "outsourcing" its computer programming work to two "H-1B bodyshops", HCL and Hexaware. Unlike in the previous "outsourcing", the existing employees were fired and replaced by foreign H-1B workers. The American BofA/Exult employees were forced to train their replacements in order to collect a severance package."

Click Here to Read The Entire Story
Rich

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
4. We H1B visa holder have made much contribution to this country's economy. It is radiculous to let a H1B person go home even he/she is working on that position , just because some "patriots" want to make some rooms for citizen. Come on, you REALLY think this will work ?? I think the company will immediately be sued for discrimination. Oh, you want congress to force a nation-wide firing H1B people ? Well, if you are really as naive as that, I even don't want to comment on it... The fact will teach you...

mike,
You guys forget, you are NOT US citizens. You are "guests" of a company. You do NOT have the rights of a US citizen. You guys have a lot of balls to be a "guest" and demand things. Maybe, in your country, guests are rude and "demand" things. Here, it is generally accepted "guests" should NOT be rude and "demand" things. I would never even consider going to another country and "demanding" all the rights of citizenship. Given, you are NOT a citizen, this illogical argument of discrimination is not an issue.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
5. I understand there is always a group of such citizens who blame on other non-citizens, fortunately most Americans are not like that. From my observation, usually this small group of people are narrow-minded, be jealous of other immigrant's success, they don't know they should work hard to contribute. I know some of such citizens. they don't study hard, they don't work hard, they just want to claim benefit using their citizen tag. When they find they can't find a job, they blaim others.

mike,
I'll quote my previous post. "In the end, the vast majority of the Americans would like to see the individuals who are not citizens simply go home. I'm sure if you mentioned the H1-B issue to any red blooded American, they would want to send them home. Of course, there are some liberals, like you, who believe we should just let these people become citizens. Myself, I'm too logical. If the country cannot support the current population, how can it support more?"
You make the incorrect assumption ALL Americans know the real facts on the H1-B issue. Most Americans do not know about this "dirty secret" of the H1-B program. If ALL Americans knew about it, I'd be willing to say the majority (51% or more) would rather send the H1-Bs home and employ Americans. I�m sure the percentage would be even greater if you told them there are tens of thousands of unemployed Americans able to fill those jobs. They would much rather take care of their "own." This is not unique to the citizens of the USA. I'm certain one would find this in many countries.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[flying jordan]

First, when I said "immigration policy" it is a general definition. Since H1B visa is processed by Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) office, it is considered as part of the immigration policy. Immigration doesn't only mean naturalization.
Rich, personally I don't understand why you have to laugh at other foreigners' writing. But I don't think it is polite, and it doesn't help anything. Anybody from any country has the right to post messages on this board and English just happens to be the standard language. If people laugh at others like that, it isn't healthy for this public community.

Rich, some personal suggestion (no offense): From your messages, I feel you not only hate the H1B policy, but also strongly dislike(I wouldn't use hate here) immigrants and foreigners. I hope you don't go too far in that direction.

[Sach Baat]

Rich,
Dont post the entire post from the user you are trying to reply to.
It is a strain on the eyes.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Sach Baat ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I watched PBS News Hour last night, they had interesting story about India.
PBS India Segment
It was my first time to view Bangalore, nice looking place. They said India has restrictive immigration laws.
I am very glad I did not see a "Yankee Go Home"
sign.

[mike zhang]

Rich, you wrote "For a guy who thinks he is really smart, you have misspellings and two points numbered three. I guess your MSCS degree did not have a mathematics or writing requirement"
Hahaha... you are wrong, being smart doesn't mean I can't have typo or even grammar error, I am pround to have multiple language skills. I graduated from a USA top 30 CS graduate school and my minor field is applied mathemetics. Even I use English as my second language I could managed to earn decent degress from USA and decent job position, people give me respect. But look at you, you are nothing but a desperate loser. Anyone with common sense will look down upon you when they see you make fun of other foreigners' misspelling or typo. That kind of behaviour makes you look like a clown.
So, I can "understand" you better now: You mood is full of feeling of upset, angry, abnormal hatred of immigrants, is your mood really so desperate that making fun of foreigner's English makes you feel better ? Well, I feel sorry for you.
Rich, you are right, I was a guest to this country. But this country recognizes my capability and they want me to stay. I am not an underpaid labor. They helped me process permanent
resident application because they want me to stay. This country has been an immigration country for hundred years. Immigrants have made significant contribution to this country. Dept. of Lablor secretary Elaine Chao was an immigrant, many professional atheletics are immigrants. EVERY president advocates the immigration policy when he swears. It is not just something you Rich can decide...
Rich, I want you to look through this thread and tell me how many supportive response you have gathered. I can tell you there are no more than 6
individuals as I count. It is mainly a personal show here for you, and those few Jason, John, etc.
No more than 6 people really support you. Why ? Because your idea is dumb. People even don't want to waste time to argue with you. You are lucky that I am teaching you something because today I have some free time. From tomorrow on I won't have time on this.
You think we demand too much ? what do you mean ?
You just said most of H1B get underpaid... You can't demand permanent residence, citizen ? Why can't they if the law allows them to ? So you mean the law is wrong ? Rich, why do you think all the lawmakers are stupid and wrong except you are smart and correct ? The job market always needs some competition, certain level of competition is good because it will force those lazy citizens to work harder and not just claim benefit using their citizen tags. In my home country there are also some US owned companies, they put lot of competition on native companies, but overall it is good because it force native products to compete with others and only good ones can survive. You think it never hurt native
employees ? It certainly does. But in the long term it is good.
Rich, I suggest you stop whining, complaining, if you keep this sort of attitude in your life, you will not be happy and success will be far away from you.

[Sach Baat]

Rufus,
I watched the show. Nowhere does it say that India has restrictive immigration laws.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

You are saying it's not true? If an American wants to get a job in Bangalore, it's going to be as easy as an H1-B going the other way?
Oh, BTW, I have some allergies. Is the air pollution as bad as I hear?
Talk some truth to me.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]

[Jason Menard]

Mike,
You are aware it is possible to be pro-immigration and at the same time oppose the mis-application of the H-1B visa to the IT sector, correct? And just because one may have a problem with this particular government program does not mean that they have a problem with the foreign workers themselves, only the government program. You are able to see that this distinction is possible, right? It is typically the ignorant and the narrow minded who try to turn this into an issue of race, no matter which side of the debate they may be on.
As for your score card.. For one thing I can speak for myself and simply because I may agree with some things one poster says does not mean I agree with everything a poster says. To make that assumption is pure ignorance. For another, I went back through this thread and I believe I saw one person (maybe two) who seems to support the H-1B visa program as it applies to IT.
From a link posted above, it seems that many workers in the UK have similar views of their equivalent program. Why do you think that is?

[Jason Menard]

In my home country there are also some US owned companies...
Who employ almost all local workers. Not the same thing.

[mike zhang]

Jason,
You said "In my home country there are also some US owned companies...
Who employ almost all local workers. Not the same thing.
"
You only think about the employee part -- whether they are local or US people. My point is: These US companies bring competition to local companies and some of the local companies failed or went bankrupted during the competition. This brought big issue of unemployment for local people. But those USA companies are still running there. So, what's wrong with those H1B workers in US ? Why can't they add competition to US labor market ? Of course you can say it is not US companies' fault to beat local ones in the competition, then I will say you better not complain that US citizens failed in job market competition here.

[Sach Baat]

"You are saying it's not true? If an American wants to get a job in Bangalore, it's going to be as easy as an H1-B going the other way?"
Rufus,
Your original statement claimed that the PBS show said India has restrictive immigration laws.I did not see that anywhere in the show. Care to explain?
"Oh, BTW, I have some allergies. Is the air pollution as bad as I hear?"
I believe you just want to make some snide comments here, which is not related to the topic at all.I dont want to entertain you.
Have a nice day!
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Sach Baat ]

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Jason,
You said "In my home country there are also some US owned companies...
Who employ almost all local workers. Not the same thing.
"
You only think about the employee part -- whether they are local or US people. My point is: These US companies bring competition to local companies and some of the local companies failed or went bankrupted during the competition. This brought big issue of unemployment for local people. But those USA companies are still running there. So, what's wrong with those H1B workers in US ? Why can't they add competition to US labor market ? Of course you can say it is not US companies' fault to beat local ones in the competition, then I will say you better not complain that US citizens failed in job market competition here.

At least the US companies are providing jobs for the local talent. Who is providing jobs for the local talent in the US? I don't care if it's a Japanese, Indian, or Italian company.
If companies in US don't employ Americans, who will?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Mr. Truth usually you like to flaunt the magnificence of thousand years old culture.
Mr. Truth usually you like to point out how smart the H1-Bs are.
Electricity is unreliable.
Pollution is terrible.
Water is unreliable.
Maybe your should not entertain me. May be you should go home and clean up your country.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]

[mike zhang]

John, those US companies provided jobs, true, otherwise how do they make money ? But they hurt the local job market stability and many other local companies have to lay off the workers, so the scenario is: they create 1 job, but 5 more workers lose their jobs because of them. are many local labor association propose to kick those US companies owners out.
What I want to say is -- I disagree with those local workers in my home country, just like I disagree with Rich. I believe every country should allow certain level of competition including source from foreigners. This kind of competition is healthy and beneficial to the country. For example, USA imports so many Japanese cars, why ? because they are good and reliable. Have you or your relative or your American friends bought a japanese car ? Why don't you or they refuse to buy it and only buy US made cars ? Don't think ever think they occupy your market (They also hire local US workers)? (I am not a Japanese..) Maybe you do, but fortunately we are glad to see those American car manufactures are catching up, Buick is no longer a silly tank, and Ford is no longer something enjoying being seen by mechanic. Why ? Because competition forces them to improve.

[mike zhang]

Posted by Rufus:
*****************
Mr. Truth usually you like to flaunt the magnificence of thousand years old culture.
Mr. Truth usually you like to point out how smart the H1-Bs are.
Electricity is unreliable.
Pollution is terrible.
Water is unreliable.
Maybe your should not entertain me. May be you should go home and clean up your country.
***********
What country is this ? India ? We have never been there. Look at your sentence "Maybe your should", "May be you". Are you trying to confuse non native English speaker ??
Using your quote -- "Many rules were made before you were born", AND US IMMIGRATION RULE IS JUST ONE OF THE RULES, man.

[J. Yan]

Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:
Mr. Truth usually you like to flaunt the magnificence of thousand years old culture.
Mr. Truth usually you like to point out how smart the H1-Bs are.
Electricity is unreliable.
Pollution is terrible.
Water is unreliable.
Maybe your should not entertain me. May be you should go home and clean up your country.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]

Not really understand what you were trying to say. Don't think you are qualified to say some words which you already said.
Mind your business, and never try to tell other people what to do.

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by flying jordan:
Rich, personally I don't understand why you have to laugh at other foreigners' writing. But I don't think it is polite, and it doesn't help anything. Anybody from any country has the right to post messages on this board and English just happens to be the standard language. If people laugh at others like that, it isn't healthy for this public community.

flying,
If you go back and really read his message, I think you will find his tone to be at least somewhat rude. At least, I found it to be that way.
I did not "laugh" at him. I do not know how you arrived at that incorrect conclusion. I said the following:
"For a guy who thinks he is really smart, you have misspellings and two points numbered three. I guess your MSCS degree did not have a mathematics or writing requirement."
This was directly related to what I perceived to be his rude tone.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by flying jordan:
Rich, some personal suggestion (no offense): From your messages, I feel you not only hate the H1B policy, but also strongly dislike(I wouldn't use hate here) immigrants and foreigners. I hope you don't go too far in that direction.

flying,
I strongly oppose the companies breaking the H1-B laws. I dislike the fact the US Congressmen are more concerned about money and power than the people.
As for the H1-Bs, I have some H1-B friends from India. One of them, who is now in California, used to go to lunch with me everyday. As far as people go, I have found them very nice. The issue is NOT with the H1-Bs personally, it IS the deceptive companies and the government.
Rich

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
You think we demand too much ? what do you mean ?

mike,
I clearly stated, "You guys forget, you are NOT US citizens. You are "guests" of a company. You do NOT have the rights of a US citizen. You guys have a lot of balls to be a "guest" and demand things. Maybe, in your country, guests are rude and "demand" things. Here, it is generally accepted "guests" should NOT be rude and "demand" things. I would never even consider going to another country and "demanding" all the rights of citizenship."
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Sach Baat]

"Electricity is unreliable.
Pollution is terrible.
Water is unreliable.
Maybe your should not entertain me. May be you should go home and clean up your country.
"
Scratch the surface and the mask goes way.Xenophobia is hard to conceal my friend.
Maybe you should go back to the country from where your forefathers came from.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Sach Baat ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Hahaha... you are wrong, being smart doesn't mean I can't have typo or even grammar error, I am pround to have multiple language skills. I graduated from a USA top 30 CS graduate school and my minor field is applied mathemetics. Even I use English as my second language I could managed to earn decent degress from USA and decent job position, people give me respect. But look at you, you are nothing but a desperate loser. Anyone with common sense will look down upon you when they see you make fun of other foreigners' misspelling or typo. That kind of behaviour makes you look like a clown.

mike,
Again, I find your "loser" statement to be offensive. You do not know me. You do not know how much education I have. You know nothing about me except you have trouble matching wits with me.
If you really got your MSCS "from a USA top 30 CS graduate school," they should be ashamed. It must be an easy program to complete. If your "minor field is applied mathematics," you must be joking. You could not even count.
I went to highly rated universities for both my BS and MSCS. By the way, my GPA was 3.9 at both universities. Obviously, they both produce more polished individuals than the school you attended.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Care to explain?

It was on the TV show, maybe it's not on the web page. I'm pretty sensitive to immigration issues.
I don't think I heard something that was not said.
Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]

[mike zhang]

Rich wrote :
*********
mike,
Again, I find your "loser" statement to be offensive. You do not know me. You do not know how much education I have. You know nothing about me except you have trouble matching wits with me.
If you really got your MSCS "from a USA top 30 CS graduate school," they should be ashamed. It must be an easy program to complete. If your "minor field is applied mathematics," you must be joking. You could not even count.
I went to highly rated universities for both my BS and MSCS. By the way, my GPA was 3.9 at both universities. Obviously, they both produce more polished individuals than the school you attended.
Rich
***********
Rich,
I think your university should be shamed to produce sore losers (In the beginning I was hesitating to use this word, but your consistent clown behavior made me feel it is very proper to use it for you...) who can only whine, cry, "intelligently" argue that other people can't count because they had a typo in the number. I am impressed by what kind of intelligence you have. Why do you think there a "wit match with you" ? Come on, I said "loser" because I saw your negative attitude, I have no intension to make any education or other background comparison with you. Your background means nothing to me I totally don't want to know, let alone compare with you. I can accomplish all this kind things by using a second language in a second country. How about you ? You were born and raised in this country, and eventually you can just beat some others on English grammar and catching their number counting error ? Like 1-2-3, if they count as 1-2-2 accidently, you say they can't count. Wa, you are the man. Real smart American man !

you say you are polished ? Wa, Wa, polished to wine, maybe ? Degree doesn't represent everything, GPA doesn't stand for your intelligence. We all have high GPA. What really means something is attitude. US Air Force has a saying "Attitude determines altitude". With your attitude in life, you will never to able to really succeed (maybe you view your little accomplishment as 'success').

[mike zhang]

Rich,
Once again, I truly don't want to offend others using word "loser". But that word first came out from another person (I forgot the name) who replied to your thread. And I felt there is indeed something wrong with your attitude. Why am I not the only one who uses 'loser attitude' on you ??
Don't just blame others, blame congress, president, country. Look at you, look at yourself, from the first message to the end, your abnormally keep whining and whining without any rest. How many people support you ? Ask yourself. What image have you left to others ? I happened to mention your name to few fellows in today's lunch. All of their response is "we always have such people, don't bother with them. let them whine." These fellows are all Americans.

[mike zhang]

Rich,
I think any kind of verbal argument doesn't mean anything. Let the fact talk. By the end of this year, if your proposal of "sending all H1B and/or non-citizen" comes true, I will post a message "I am a loser". If you fail, I just need you to post "this is Rich who whined for months, but my proposal failed".
Let us wait to see who will fail.

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
Once again, I truly don't want to offend others using word "loser". But that word first came out from another person (I forgot the name) who replied to your thread. And I felt there is indeed something wrong with your attitude. Why am I not the only one who uses 'loser attitude' on you ??
Don't just blame others, blame congress, president, country. Look at you, look at yourself, from the first message to the end, your abnormally keep whining and whining without any rest. How many people support you ? Ask yourself. What image have you left to others ? I happened to mention your name to few fellows in today's lunch. All of their response is "we always have such people, don't bother with them. let them whine." These fellows are all Americans.

mike,
You have shown no intelligence or wit. You are just a liberal name caller. If you had ANY intelligence, you would realize calling people names does NOT make you seem better. You are acting like a little child. You cannot come up with anything of substance to say here.
Oh, you were really original by parroting what someone else said. Are you showing your intelligence again?
How many people support me? You can search on Google for H1-B. There are many people involved. Are you really that naive to believe this is the ONLY place people discuss this issue on the entire internet?
As for your "American" buddies, they better hope they do not have to look for jobs in the next few months. Regardless of how talented or skilled they are, they will find the prospects pretty bleak. Then, we'll see what they say about the H1-B issue. No one really cares until it hits home.
In the end, it is not "whining." As I said several times before, I just wanted to raise awareness. If one person learned about the H1-B program from this thread, I have accomplished my objective.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
I think any kind of verbal argument doesn't mean anything. Let the fact talk. By the end of this year, if your proposal of "sending all H1B and/or non-citizen" comes true, I will post a message "I am a loser". If you fail, I just need you to post "this is Rich who whined for months, but my proposal failed".
Let us wait to see who will fail.

mike,
You must really be unaware of how the political system works here. Let me sum it up for you. A very small group of wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs control the political process by giving campaign contributions, bribes or other "compensation." Unfortunately, in the end, the US citizens have little or no voice.
I know you want to believe this H1-B issue is solely my cause. You want to think I decided to lead the fight against this injustice. This is simply not true. Dr. Matloff has been fighting this for years.
If I alone could determine the end result, ALL the H1-Bs would be gone already. Since this issue is being decided by the politicians, it is not my decision. I know the politicians will keep it going because they like the "contributions" from the various organizations. It does not mean you win. You are just an immigrant. You are not controlling the political process. The wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs are.
I never stated I will personally resolve the H1-B problem. Where did you get that crazy idea? Stating the success or failure of this issue reflects directly on me is crazy.
As I said several times before, I just wanted to raise awareness. If one person learned about the H1-B program from this thread, I have accomplished my objective.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[mike zhang]

Rich,
it seems your recent two message shows more wit than your former ones. At least you stay calmer, that's what I like. That's step one in changing attitude.
when you feel others are doing name calling on you , don't you feel you are doing some childish things when you do those spelling and typo catching on others ? Here, I don't want to keep going that way to divert the topic.
just as you said "A very small group of wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs control the political process". Their decision may significantly help or hurt the Americans' lives.
In this modern world, no country should and could completely closes its door to foreigners. When a boat hits a rock and water starts leaking into it, the first thing is to see if the hole can be fixed or blocked (may not be a proper terminology), instead of pushing some people into water to drop the weight. I don't know why some people like to focus on the minor part instead of the critical issues. I can tell you : those 50,000 H1B visa include lot of people who is holding the jobs. I have never heard such a thing these days in any country: Company asks foreigners to quit job just because they need to make rooms for citizens. I mean, if this foreigner is just laid off, I agree he/she should go home. But it is unfair to force him/her to quit the job if he/she is working on it well. That's why I say your idea of "sending all H1B home" is unfair and wrong.

As for you mentioned some companies "illegally" hired H1B visa by underpaying them. I think it is just case by case. There are always some people abusing the laws. they abuse everywhere, like Enron, MCI, those CFO/CEO are real killers to American employee. How much can 50,000 H1B people make annually ? how much did those bad guys make in the fraud ? My point is, we can NEVER 100% prevent any bad guys from taking advantage of policy, we can set more strict laws to monitor, but by no means should we completely abandoning it just because there are some bad guys and companies.
If you propose to setting up a strict monitoring law for this H1B, I totally agree with you. But your slogan is "sending all of H1B home". I don't think it makes sense.

[mike zhang]

Rufus wrote:
***********************
It was on the TV show, maybe it's not on the web page. I'm pretty sensitive to immigration issues.
I don't think I heard something that was not said.
Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?
*******************

??? Guess I need some help in interpretation.

[Holmes Wong]

As for your "American" buddies, they better hope they do not have to look for jobs in the next few months. Regardless of how talented or skilled they are, they will find the prospects pretty bleak. Then, we'll see what they say about the H1-B issue. No one really cares until it hits home.

I think we all look miserable, don't we? Lets look at the root of the problem, not its leaves. Two or three years ago, when there were plenty of jobs available, would we have this kind of "heated and meaningless" arguments? Think about who is reponsible for all that. If you are not satisfied with the current policy, use your voting power! We are all at the mercy of the policy-makers. Ask who is handling the economy, Who is creating/destroying jobs? Its useless to blame sheeps, you need to blame on the shepherd who is capable of making things happen. Right?
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Holmes Wong ]

[mike zhang]

Rich wrote:
**************
If you really got your MSCS "from a USA top 30 CS graduate school," they should be ashamed. It must be an easy program to complete.
**************
Rich,
They are not ashamed. They like me. I worked as TA for one year and RA for one year. When I left the professor wanted me to stay to work with him.
You said I can't count, maybe I really can't 'count' because I have covered too much in mathmetics from Partial differential equations to numerical methods, from advanced probability to statistics, from graph theory to number theory, I have learned much more than CSMC required courses. That's why the CS department asked me to teach some undergraduate kids "discrete math" in the summer, it was fun for me. Again, it is top 30 CS graduate school and it is in east coast... People understood that I have bit accent but we communicated perfectly. As a matter of fact, these days if you go to any top 10 US schools, you will see many professors who are immigrants and came here as "guests" first. They are all more knowledgable than you Rich. Rich, I don't need your evaluation, I got excellent evaluation from professors, boss, colleagues, friends, most Americans I know, that's enough. Your words doesn't mean anything to me.
Following your logic, we should also send those non citizen graduate students home because they take the schlarship and TA/RA positions. As long as there is one American who is qualified for that TA/RA position, that foreign student should be sent home. So, Rich, I guess you should make another web site to propose that, hah ?

[mike zhang]

Holmes wrote;
********
I think we all look miserable, don't we? Lets look at the root of the problem, not its leaves.
********
Holmes, not everyone can see this point as you can...

[Mark Herschberg]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, as its a topic which tends to get heated in other forums. We haven't crossed a line yet, but let's try to keep postings friendly and respectful.
I'm not pointing to anyone in particular. Just a friendly reminder from your bartender.

--Mark

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
when you feel others are doing name calling on you , don't you feel you are doing some childish things when you do those spelling and typo catching on others ? Here, I don't want to keep going that way to divert the topic.

mike,
The point I was making was simple. It is not acceptable, in my opinion, to resort to personal attacks. You did just that.
As I mentioned in my posts, I felt you were intentionally being rude and arrogant. That is exactly why I mentioned the errors in your post. Whether or not you intended to rude and arrogant, that is how it was perceived.
Rich

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
just as you said "A very small group of wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs control the political process". Their decision may significantly help or hurt the Americans' lives.

mike,
In the general sense, it is true the politicians' decisions may help or hurt American citizens. However, when it comes down to what is best for the US citizens versus what is best for the wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs, we all know they will choose to side with the latter. The citizens, as I said have little or no voice. That is the problem.
It is not the way the founding fathers ever envisioned it. I'm sure they envisioned the politicians would be morally upright. I'm certain they would all be very disappointed to see the digression of our political system.
Rich