Read this?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
The fault was the managers with the dollar signs floating through their heads.

Thanks.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
That's the point you all seem to be missing. Those who wish to continue the H- and L- visa policies are perceived as stealing the livelihood of American workers. If you continue to do so (especially with smug platitudes about "global economies" and "inevitability" and "changing your standard of living" and "competing"), do not be surprised if these people HATE you. Passionately and completely. Do not be surprised as America becomes more and more isolationist, and more jingoistic, and more xenophobic.

Thanks God ! This time name of any country has not been taken.
Nice to hear such views and intelligent thoughts.
[I am thinking myself in the company of ......]
From another thread.

I think the greatest lie that Americians tell themselfs is that the rest of the world is jelous of them.

I dont know how much truth is there. But yes but such views really makes .......
[sometime I do ask myself, why the hell one cant respect others, and I get answer, people get in return what they give.]
It was nice debate.
Keep it up.

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Thanks God ! This time name of any country has not been taken.

Ravish, statements like these are hugely annoying. You bitch if I bring up India in context, and then you bitch about OLD posts if I do not. QUIT WHINING.
And when I talked about Indian abusers of the H- and L- visa, I meant specifically people like this:
"According to Laxman Badiga, chief executive of talent transformation and external relations at Wipro, the company can get L1 visa applications approved four to eight weeks faster than it takes to process an H-1B visa."
Or companies like this (these are just two of many, many such sites):
http://www.path2usa.com/
http://www.newsoftsolutions.com/
These are not people seeking to fill jobs where they cannot find qulaified American workers. These are people specifically trying to get jobs in America for foreign workers at the expense of qualified Americans. This goes against the letter AND the spirit of the law.
You take offense when I say things about Indian companies, but you don't say one word about these obvious abuses. That seems more than a little bit hypocritical, in my opinion. Such lack of objectivity really undermines any of your arguments that might otherwise have merit.
And that, Ravish, is my last word on it. Go ahead, try to justify it. But it's not going to work, not with me, and not with anyone here in the States who actually has done the research to see the terrible and ongoing abuses of these policies.
Joe

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Over the years I've noticed H1-B's have a sense of an entitlement that they should be allowed a fair chance to compete in the US on a may the best man win basis. I wish one could explain why they feel they are entitled to this competition.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Over the years I've noticed H1-B's have a sense of an entitlement that they should be allowed a fair chance to compete in the US on a may the best man win basis. I wish one could explain why they feel they are entitled to this competition.

I have noticed that too. The law that agreed to abide by when they came to the USA does not allow them to compete with American citizens or naturalized aliens for jobs.

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[qb]
And yet, I survive. I work 12-16 hours a day now, seven days a week. And yet you want to reduce my standard of living even more. You think that's fair. And you wonder why there's animosity.

Joe, why would you assume anyone in the world worries how improving their own quality of life might degrade yours? or mine, or anyone else's for that matter?
You work hard, you've written a book that by all accounts should sell very well, you have a name you could easily capitalize on...it sounds to me like you were expecting America to work a certain way. Now that it doesn't, you want the right to get angry. You've been deceived. My only question is, by whom?

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Joe, why would you assume anyone in the world worries how improving their own quality of life might degrade yours? or mine, or anyone else's for that matter?
You work hard, you've written a book that by all accounts should sell very well, you have a name you could easily capitalize on...it sounds to me like you were expecting America to work a certain way. Now that it doesn't, you want the right to get angry. You've been deceived. My only question is, by whom?

You're a jaded, cynical man, Michael. You evidently believe that everybody in the world is out for themselves at the expense of others. I do not.
I believe in the world that gave birth to the Special Olympics, and the Lighthouse for the Blind. I believe in Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Vietnam protesters. I believe in Habitats for Humanity and the Peace Corp. I believe in St. Jude's Children's Hospital and Public Television and Mother Teresa. I believe people are fundamentally good.
I believe that people will do what they can to make sure their families have the essentials. But I also believe in the basic goodness of human beings. I believe we all want to do well, and we will be happy to GIVE what we can, but we highly resent things being TAKEN from us.
I see it every day. I see it in rehab facilities and detox wards and hospices and soup kitchens and battered women's facilities. I see it in volunteer literacy programs and homeless shelters and in everyday heroes like firemen, policemen and teachers.
And then I see the unmitigated greed of corporations trying to squeeze every cent by displacing American jobs with foreign workers.
No, I have not been deceived. There are good people out there. And there are bad, nasty, greedy people. It was always so.
And remember, all that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke)
Speak up, or suffer the fruits of your silence.
Joe
(Note that I do not label the foreign workers as "evil" - they are simply taking advantage of the situation to feed their families, perhaps not realizing what they are donig to us.)

[Rufus BugleWeed]

It's a lot easier to throw out the proof by limited options fallacy if you would just list them ME.
a. the government
b. yourself
c. mickey mouse
e. micheal earnest

[Vinod John]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

And then I see the unmitigated greed of corporations trying to squeeze every cent by displacing American jobs with foreign workers.

Joe, I agree the American Corporations are greedy as always, at the present circumstaces what do think they (american corporations) should do. Replace all the the immigrants with Americans and make more losses or less profit (bcos they will end up spending more) and make the market more uncertain.

[Cindy Glass]

Joe,
I see all those things too, but if Indians (or fill in the blank) get our jobs instead of us, I expect that THEY are also good people and would continue supporting such things. Just because Americans support good causes does not mean that they should somehow be entitled to a job more than anyone else.
Basically the first law of survival is to watch out for you and yours. Based on this it just makes SENSE that non-US workers would try their best to benefit from the current situation as best that they can, until conditions change. Who can blame them?
The non-US high-tech workers that are worried about their US jobs are in denial. Their time is limited no matter how you look at it. Why would the US hand them local jobs, when they can hire off shore workers for so much cheaper. Their competition is NOT US workers, it is their families back home. So I expect that within a year or so those visas will be eliminated, but that really will not help that much.

[Michael Ernest]

JP: You're a jaded, cynical man, Michael. You evidently believe that everybody in the world is out for themselves at the expense of others. I do not.
ME: Judging by the excerpt from your post I used, I'd disagree with you. Your statement sounds like a victim's complaint to me. Unless you meant to say that corporations and foreign workers are out to take your way of life, and you're just being all good and hard-working...well, shit, I don't even want to touch that possibility.
JP: I believe in the world that gave birth to the Special Olympics, and the Lighthouse for the Blind. I believe in Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Vietnam protesters. I believe in Habitats for Humanity and the Peace Corp. I believe in St. Jude's Children's Hospital and Public Television and Mother Teresa. I believe people are fundamentally good.
ME: Brother and fellow American, you had better go back and read that disgusting, hateful statement on the impending American backlash you wrote a few posts ago. If you believe people are fundamentally good then why don't you post something to reflect that?
JP: I believe that people will do what they can to make sure their families have the essentials. But I also believe in the basic goodness of human beings.
ME: I believe that most people do what they can to prosper, to achieve the best results they can. If you believe in the adequacy of subsistence then there is little point to a place like America. Land of opportunity, baby. The Land of Just-What-You-Need, that's a founding point for Marxism-Leninism, not capitalism.
JP: I believe we all want to do well, and we will be happy to GIVE what we can, but we highly resent things being TAKEN from us.
ME: Right. So what is it that is being taken from you? Who is taking it? If those things being taken from you are not your rights -- and the American Dream is hardly a set of rights -- then how did you come to own them? And those things, if they are not rights, aren't they just self-described entitlements? Aren't you simply arguing for your own sense of entitlement over a "foreign worker's" sense of entitlement?
JP: I see it every day. I see it in rehab facilities and detox wards and hospices and soup kitchens and battered women's facilities. I see it in volunteer literacy programs and homeless shelters and in everyday heroes like firemen, policemen and teachers.
ME: I thought you just wrote a few posts ago that you're in front of the computer 12-14 hours a day, working your ass off, barely making rent or mortgage.
JP: And then I see the unmitigated greed of corporations trying to squeeze every cent by displacing American jobs with foreign workers.
No, I have not been deceived. There are good people out there. And there are bad, nasty, greedy people. It was always so.
ME: Some people say greed is good, and have said so in this forum. Rufus Bugleweed might have been one of them. What I hear you saying, though, is that you should be able to make a comfortable living doing exactly what you do, because it was possible to do so (so you claim) ten years ago.
It would seem that either the world is a) changing or b) isn't working as you've been led to believe it should. You can blame large, opportunistic trends in employment practice for that, you can blame corporations for that, you can even call it evil or un-American, if you want. That's one response. Possibly another is to say that you do what you love, and if your daughter needs a car and a college education then she'll figure out a way, hopefully by doing something she loves to do. Maybe you'll be able to help her or finance it when the time comes. Maybe not. Were you promised more than a chance to find out?
JP:And remember, all that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke)
ME: Edmund Burke wasn't talking about socially vacant employment practices, Joe.
JP: (Note that I do not label the foreign workers as "evil" - they are simply taking advantage of the situation to feed their families, perhaps not realizing what they are donig to us.)
ME: One person's opportuntity is another person's exploitation, Joe. It's only a question of whether you feel you are finding one or losing one.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Joe Pluta]

I see all those things too, but if Indians (or fill in the blank) get our jobs instead of us, I expect that THEY are also good people and would continue supporting such things. Just because Americans support good causes does not mean that they should somehow be entitled to a job more than anyone else.
Not an issue. I was just dissenting from Michael's "everyone is self-centered" viewpoint. Had nothing to do with jobs, per se. Also note that I went out of my way to say that the workers themselves are not bad people.

The non-US high-tech workers that are worried about their US jobs are in denial. Their time is limited no matter how you look at it. Why would the US hand them local jobs, when they can hire off shore workers for so much cheaper. Their competition is NOT US workers, it is their families back home. So I expect that within a year or so those visas will be eliminated, but that really will not help that much.
Here's where we disagree. I have less problem with outsourcing than with visas. The primary reason these companies are using the visas is that outsourcing doesn't work! From issues surrounding support to infrastructure to time zones to language to any number of other issues, it's been shown over and over that large IT jobs don't span oceans very well. Small ones are fine, but the ones we do here, which involve creating the information systems for large American corporations, don't work when run out of Bangalore.
I say this from experience. I worked for one of the larger software companies in America, and watched a major outsourced project go belly up for many of the reasons I stated earlier. However, if you can put an office in New Jersey, then you can displace American workers by bringing in what amounts to chattel labor for one third the cost or less. This is because you don't need to build the infrastructure, or the management organization. That's already in place at the American firm! Instead, you're just displacing the labor, using systems that were put in place by the people you're displacing.
I'm reasonably certain that once foreign companies can no longer keep their workers here without paying all their bills, and have to go back to the old system of trying to work remotely, that you'll see a lot less outsourcing.
But hey, I could be wrong. And it's not worth a lot of argument. It will play out as it will. I'm just tired of hearing how we're bad for wanting the visas to end. The visas are being abused. They stink. They must stop. Then we'll see how well we can compete.
Joe

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Here's where we disagree. I have less problem with outsourcing than with visas. The primary reason these companies are using the visas is that outsourcing doesn't work! From issues surrounding support to infrastructure to time zones to language to any number of other issues, it's been shown over and over that large IT jobs don't span oceans very well. Small ones are fine, but the ones we do here, which involve creating the information systems for large American corporations, don't work when run out of Bangalore.

Well, I guess we really DO disagree. Off-shoring (or Best Shoring as it is now called) is the issue. IT jobs will be made to span oceans. Granted all the kinks are not yet out of it, but that is just because it is in it's infancy. The way it is playing out is that the customer interaction, requirements, (perahps design) and Project Management will stay here, and the basic programming and development stuff will be done by the lowest cost resource.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I say this from experience. I worked for one of the larger software companies in America, and watched a major outsourced project go belly up for many of the reasons I stated earlier. However, if you can put an office in New Jersey, then you can displace American workers by bringing in what amounts to chattel labor for one third the cost or less. This is because you don't need to build the infrastructure, or the management organization. That's already in place at the American firm! Instead, you're just displacing the labor, using systems that were put in place by the people you're displacing..

Well it so happens that I also work for one of the largest software companies in America and for the largest Corporation in the World. I, too, saw the first wave of attempts at off shoring fail and we pulled all the technical support back home. For all the same reasons that you just named, including different holidays and social customs. And the second wave also failed for lack of sophisticated processes overseas.
However, the incentives are just TOO big. So we are now on perhaps our third wave of seriously attempting to make this work. First of all, support that requires lots of interaction is going to Brazil. They are in the same time frame as us, and they work for the same rates as India. (Watch out India ) Next, we started realizing that we had to get FIRM and insist on our standards (something that we did not realize would be necessary). When we hire in India, they work the hours that WE ask them to work - or they don't get the job. They implement OUR documented processes and follow them, we review thier work and audit them continually. We expect them to communicate clearly and have let go good programmers who made this difficult for one reason or another.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I'm just tired of hearing how we're bad for wanting the visas to end. The visas are being abused. They stink. They must stop. Then we'll see how well we can compete.
Joe

I agree, with this, I just think that it is inevitable without my getting emotional about it. I can't blame the non-US folks that are over here for fighting to maintain status quo. I just think that they are naive, or blind from wishful thinking. And I think that their competition is from "back home".

[Anonymous]

Bravo, Michael and Cindy,
That dude is a [ edited to remove name calling :roll: ]. Its survival of the fittest/Baddest out there. I work for a consulting company which does offshore business for a fortune 500 company. Now get this, we were bidding for a project of half a mil in that f500 company and another offshore consulting company (Very big company) also bidding for the same company, well we pitched in for something like 350K and the other company pitched in for half mil we already did a project for the project manager and directory they recommended us to the top management but who do u think will get the work. the other folks got the project for half mil why? Other company gave half a dozen delicious lunches to the top management and broker mediated for unknown amount (probably 100K+) bribes to my beloved american citizen corporate thugs. u think its bad out there but hey its worse, cut throat competition, bribery (on every stage). As long as there is these kind of people out there who take and give bribes, american citizens, genuine consulting folks, everyone is going to suffer. But inevitably offshore is going nowhere (u digest this earlier the better) unless you impose some kind of TAX for every penny that goes out of country in terms of offshore you pay it as tax but corporations will always search for backdoors . thats all i have to say. Peace out.
PS: I know a few american, chinese and indian consulting firms which actively participate in this bribing scheme.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[Joe Pluta]

ME: Brother and fellow American, you had better go back and read that disgusting, hateful statement on the impending American backlash you wrote a few posts ago. If you believe people are fundamentally good then why don't you post something to reflect that?
I said the following:

Those who wish to continue the H- and L- visa policies are perceived as stealing the livelihood of American workers. If you continue to do so (especially with smug platitudes about "global economies" and "inevitability" and "changing your standard of living" and "competing"), do not be surprised if these people HATE you. Passionately and completely. Do not be surprised as America becomes more and more isolationist, and more jingoistic, and more xenophobic.

Exactly what was disgusting and hateful about it? The fact is that there will indeed be a continued backlash, especially against visa holders who state that it is their "right" to compete against US citizens. Have you talked to anybody who has lost their job because of this situation? They're not particularly thrilled. If you are an H-1B visa holder and you go to a house where an American has lost his position, and then tell him you deserve his job because of the "global economy", I'm reasonably certain you will get a backlash.

ME: I believe that most people do what they can to prosper, to achieve the best results they can. If you believe in the adequacy of subsistence then there is little point to a place like America. Land of opportunity, baby. The Land of Just-What-You-Need, that's a founding point for Marxism-Leninism, not capitalism.
All I said was that people aren't greedy, and don't necessarily want everything without care for other people, as you contend with your statement: [b}Joe, why would you assume anyone in the world worries how improving their own quality of life might degrade yours? or mine, or anyone else's for that matter?[/b]
Evidently in your view, if you don't walk all over every one, you're a commie pinko scum. You and Gordon Gekko.

ME: Aren't you simply arguing for your own sense of entitlement over a "foreign worker's" sense of entitlement?
Exactly. I am a citizen. I deserve more from my country than a non-citizen.

JP: I see it every day. I see it in rehab facilities and detox wards and hospices and soup kitchens and battered women's facilities. I see it in volunteer literacy programs and homeless shelters and in everyday heroes like firemen, policemen and teachers.
ME: I thought you just wrote a few posts ago that you're in front of the computer 12-14 hours a day, working your ass off, barely making rent or mortgage.
What in the world does this have to do with anything? I am in front of my computer 12-14 hours a day. I also volunteer every other week at a local hospital and I contribute to St. Jude's and the Special Olympics. How is that inconsistent? What are you accusing me of? If you're calling me a liar, please be a little more forthright about it. Veiled insults are really unproductive.

ME: Some people say greed is good, and have said so in this forum.
Greed is not good.
Oh well, it takes all kinds.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
Well, I guess we really DO disagree. Off-shoring (or Best Shoring as it is now called) is the issue. IT jobs will be made to span oceans. Granted all the kinks are not yet out of it, but that is just because it is in it's infancy. The way it is playing out is that the customer interaction, requirements, (perahps design) and Project Management will stay here, and the basic programming and development stuff will be done by the lowest cost resource.

See, I think that outsourcing will eventually level the playing field. As each new industry is commoditized, it ghets outsourced and that is what slowly brings up the level of the global economy. What has happened in some of the lower tech industries will eventually happen in what we currently see as high tech. I hope that by that time, we will be developing "higher tech" industries to continue to spur the global marketplace forward.
My big problem is with the visas, because they unfairly skew the playing field. Rather than letting the economy play out like previous industries(that is, offshore companies building up their infrastructure in order to transition the industry to their location), instead the visa program allows foreign workers to come and usurp existing jobs.
It would be roughly equivalent to bringing in large amounts of immigrant labor to man the steel mills. Thus, rather than a gradual decline of the industry here and the subsequent movement of that workforce into retirement or other fields, instead you would have had a complete dumping of the workforce into the unemployment market (along with the subsequent higher rates of mortgage failures and so on).
Do I think outsourcing will benefit US workers? Of course not. But at least it's a fairer way of doing things than these backdoor visas.
Joe

[Mark Ju]

Joe,
I finally get your point about dumping. It's as if another country is purposefully exporting their cheaper goods to the US. However, one difference between labor and commodity is that illegal dumping is defined only when the exporting country is losing money on the commodity, yet is still selling it at the lower price to sabatoge the importing country's industry.
How does labor fit that model (ie, what's the "cost" of a labor unit)?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Exactly. I am a citizen. I deserve more from my country than a non-citizen.

Joe

1.well well, you get welfare if you are out of Job. h1 visa holders get sh&*.
2. When you retire you get your social security contributions back.
Consultants contribute for Social security and get sh#@ back.
3. If you are out of Job you can work in the holy lands of Burger king, McDonalds etc. Consultants if they are out of job for 2 or more months are kicked and deported the hell out of this country.
4. You can work multiple jobs at a time and make more money which is your right as a citizen. consultatns either have to work with the same company or get the hell out of this country.
5. State government pays your health insurance if you cannot afford one (I know this for a fact cause i know plenty of people in New York). well consultants are doomed for good if they cannot afford one.
6. Chicks dig american citizens . Chicks also normal people discriminate against consultants. Fact of new york city. Have seen enough racism over here but not complaining, good always over rides bad. After 9/11 those suspicious terrorist looks majorly in airports (LOL).
those are just top of my head.

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:
If you are out of Job you can work in the holy lands of Burger king, McDonalds etc.

((sigh))
Statements like this and you wonder about backlash, Michael?
Anyway, I'm going to go leave this to the rest f you. Let me be clear about this: I consider myself extremely blessed to have been born and raised here in the US of A. I wish with all my heart that everyone had all the opporunities I have been given, and I truly wish that everyone could live happy, healthy, prosperous lives.
I also believe that these H- and L- visas are being badly abused purely for the profit of corporations, and that they are pitting Americans and foreigners, especially Indians, against one another, all for the sake of a another Porsche in some CEO's garage.
I am sorry if I have offended anybody here, especially my Indian counterparts, the great majority of whom I have worked with are wonderful, hard-working people (and often VERY silly and funloving if you catch them in the right mood ). I think all this talk has really depressed me, and I am sorry if I haven't been my usual jovial self. I really don't want to argue about this, and I don't like myself when I get this way. I just had to make sure that someone stood up with a calm, methodical stance to try and deliver the message to those who don't understand why we're so upset.
I've done that. Any more here would just be argumentative. I am instead going to content myself with writing, emailing and phoning my elected representatives, and working with others of like mind to change the laws, either through protest or through my votes.
Joe

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Rufus Bugleweed might have been one of them.

Don't put words in my mouth lawman. If you can't follow Paul's rules, maybe you could keep quiet.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

((sigh))
Statements like this and you wonder about backlash, Michael?
Anyway, I'm going to go leave this to the rest f you. Let me be clear about this: I consider myself extremely blessed to have been born and raised here in the US of A. I wish with all my heart that everyone had all the opporunities I have been given, and I truly wish that everyone could live happy, healthy, prosperous lives.
Joe

How is that offensive my friend. I was just trying to remind you that you have an advantage of being a citizen and working ANY where and doing ANY kind of offbeat job (including burgerking) if you do not have a regular high-tech job (till you find a regular one). nothing degrading over here or saying that you are a burger king quality not a high tech quality.
You are damn right u are blessed. Have u ever been to any third world country you will quit whining about what your country has to DO MORE FOR A CITIZEN (again not cussing u ).
what are you saying, that you gotta kick out all H1 holders who are in the country right now outta the country? [I dont think this is what you mean, any way gotta confirm] and eliminate all the New H1?
or
just eliminate Any new H1's
or
allow only few H1's?
whats your point?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:
1.well well, you get welfare if you are out of Job. h1 visa holders get sh&*.
etc.

People who came here under H1-B visas knew the rules when they came here. No one told them that they would be getting all the rights of American citizens. They were told they were invited to come in to the US because there was a shortage of domestic IT staff. There is no longer a shortage so the H1-B program should end. No further H1-B visas should be issued and those holding them should be sent home. Why is this so complicated? Why is it racist to say this?

[HS Thomas]

Over the years I've noticed H1-B's have a sense of an entitlement that they should be allowed a fair chance to compete in the US on a may the best man win basis. I wish one could explain why they feel they are entitled to this competition.

Hardly surprising ! The largest corporations went a-courting and then touting them as the best things since sliced bread; the nations' press as well added to the heightened expectations on both sides.
I've seen the largest corporations approve some crap architectures by both sides of the East-West just to get their tools and databases in the door.
Expectations are a bit lower these days; At the same time some efforts in off shoring have hit pay-dirt. "UBS this year have outsourced to vendors in Bangalore, Chennai and Mumbai and other vendor locations. By Q4 2003 they expect to have realised a 600K saving including transition costs, whilst expanding test coverage by 60% and maintaining 90% of the permanent staff." - a BCS SIG flyer.
I wonder where they will be spending the �600K saving? Is this a win-win-win situation for everyone but the 10% permanent staff?
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Anonymous]

If us has to eliminate h1 then us has to say get rid of offshoring also. Because if there is a offshoring project (saying abt big projects) some developers have to come here and work for few months here. How they come thr h1.
Joe if u think u are good person and think Mother tresa, Martin Luthor king are good pls read their books then you wont blame others for not having a solid bank balance in your account.
Those indains rt now coming by h1 are either employees of tcs, wipro or infoys or sun or microsoft or oracle. Indias are getting good job in india
so they dont need to come here.
If you blame indians why u wrote a book abt eclipse .Sun is cofounded by an indian. What java rt now is just coz of hard work of so many indians
So basically what you achieved rt now is just coz of indians.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <cutlex>:
If us has to eliminate h1 then us has to say get rid of offshoring also. Because if there is a offshoring project (saying abt big projects) some developers have to come here and work for few months here. How they come thr h1.

Nope. They will have to figure out some other way to do the work. Perhaps they could hire some Americans to do the work that they need to do here!

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <cutlex>:
If you blame indians why u wrote a book abt eclipse .Sun is cofounded by an indian. What java rt now is just coz of hard work of so many indians
So basically what you achieved rt now is just coz of indians.

No one is blaming Indians. We are blaming the H1-B program which has outlived its usefullness and is being abused.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by <cutlex>:
Sun is cofounded by an indian.

He's an American. Whatever ethnic background an American has, they are still Americans. Sun, by the way, is an American company as well. James Gosling, the person who is primarily credited with creating Java (although there were several others), happens to be Canadian.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Nope. They will have to figure out some other way to do the work. Perhaps they could hire some Americans to do the work that they need to do here!

Now wouldn't that be an interesting bit of irony.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

There is no longer a shortage so the H1-B program should end. No further H1-B visas should be issued and those holding them should be sent home. Why is this so complicated? Why is it racist to say this?

to whom should i report you about?. Do not delete my post. Its the same thing as we saw in gangs of new york. New Irish immigrants come to US for that american dream and people who are citizens or who call them natives. Locals see them as threats. Same thing is happening New Generation and New Race of people are comming over here and again we see history repeating here. Again do not delete my post. I have posted nothing Obscene in this message. The thing that bothered me is you talking about they should be sent back home. that is VERY VERY OFFENSIVE. Its a disgrace that you are even a Mod. Let every one see a real you. People come to US on H1 or any visa to make a better life and achieve that american dream too and give their kids a better life. But you want to send them back who are already here. The thing that bothered me is NOT that you said to eliminate H1's why do you want to hit the stomachs of those people who are already here???

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

People who came here under H1-B visas knew the rules when they came here. No one told them that they would be getting all the rights of American citizens. They were told they were invited to come in to the US because there was a shortage of domestic IT staff. There is no longer a shortage so the H1-B program should end. No further H1-B visas should be issued and those holding them should be sent home. Why is this so complicated? Why is it racist to say this?

Dude, we already know the rules. Also America gives an opportunity telling people you work hard pay your taxes do everything a citizen does. Gives an opportunity to apply for green card, study the american history, take an exam and get the citizen ship. You stick to the rules do not commit any crime and in 10 years American rewards the people with a citizen ship. SOME of You guys take granted for that. We work hard for so many YEARS to EARN that fruit. And comments like the above makes me more determined to achieve that fruit

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by <anonymous>:

to whom should i report you about?. Do not delete my post. Its the same thing as we saw in gangs of new york. New Irish immigrants come to US for that american dream and people who are citizens or who call them natives. Locals see them as threats. Same thing is happening New Generation and New Race of people are comming over here and again we see history repeating here. Again do not delete my post. I have posted nothing Obscene in this message. The thing that bothered me is you talking about they should be sent back home. that is VERY VERY OFFENSIVE. Its a disgrace that you are even a Mod. Let every one see a real you. People come to US on H1 or any visa to make a better life and achieve that american dream too and give their kids a better life. But you want to send them back who are already here. The thing that bothered me is NOT that you said to eliminate H1's why do you want to hit the stomachs of those people who are already here???

He did not delete your post, I did because you violated forum guidelines. You may report any moderator you'd like to the trailboss, Paul Wheaton.
Now as to your issue. You can find that as offensive an opinion as you'd like, but it is one he is entitled to. People have strong opinions about this subject, get over it. He did not insult anybody, even if you disagree with his sentiments.
You may have missed the purpose of the H1-B visa, but it is a non-immigrant visa, issued to temporary workers. H1-B visa holders are not ostensibly immigrants, rather they are issued visas to come to this country for a limited time to fill jobs which supposedly can't be filled by American workers. Can we reach an agreement on this? Actually I don't see how we can't reach an agreement on this as it is a fact.
Immigrants are a different case. Immigrants are coming to this country with the plan to become US citizens. I'm all for controlled immigration personally. This country was founded by immigrants and is kept strong through controlled immigration. The H1-B visa is not an immigration visa. Therefore you are way off base.
So if we can agree that the H1-B is a non-immigration visa meant to provide temporary workers for specialty occupations which can't be filled by US citizens and legal aliens, and I don't see how we can't agree on this as these are the facts, then although I can understand why you might not like it, can you see any reason to continue the program when it is no longer serving its purpose? We know there is no US tech labor shortage anymore, and that is the need the visa was meant to address. So if the visa no longer is serving its purpose than it logically stands that it should be discontinued, correct?
If it is discontinued then there are two options as I see it. Either current H1-B holders can stay here to either finish out their time or attempt to legally immigrate, or they can be sent home. While I personally would choose the former option, a very sound argument can be made for the latter as since there is available US labor to fill positions the visa holders are currently filling, then it must mean that the non-citizen visa holders are displacing US labor which is contra to the purpose of a visa such as the H1.
And you will not have any posts deleted as long as you continue to follow forum guidelines. And may I ask why you continue to post anonymously? If you've been around here for any amount of time you should know that people often react negatively to anonymous posters. You might also want to be aware, just for general information, that moderators have the ability to see a poster's IP address so we know who is who anyway.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by <anonymous>:
Let every one see a real you.

I think this works both ways Mr./Mrs Anonymous.

[John Smith]

Joe Pluta: You will not be welcome here. You think it's bad now? We're just beginning to see the backlash. Wait another year. If things don't get better here, don't be surprised to see more vehement forms of civil (and uncivil) protest.
Is that coming from your mouth, a self-proclaimed righteous guy who volunteers for the Special Olympics and who thinks that the police officers are heros? What are you going to do, Joe, when an Indian consultant will write an "Eclipse, Step by Step" book and publish it in the US for half the price of your book? Write to your senator and lobby for the deportation of all the Indians? Riot on the street? Become uncivil and harass the people who were more competitive that you are? Write "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" on the walls of the city hall?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

I think this works both ways Mr./Mrs Anonymous.

Greggy I am already bullied by my beloved american brothers hehe. Dont wanna get some personal attention over here. Nothing indians do to become a citizen is ILLEGAL, as long as the laws allow to LEGALLY become a citizen plenty of people out there are going to do. unless u want to change them . We do not jump borders and come over here illegally and after 25 years become a citizen in a mercy pool. Any way good LORD created this world and people equal, i will live where ever i can LEGALLY

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Joe Pluta: You will not be welcome here. You think it's bad now? We're just beginning to see the backlash. Wait another year. If things don't get better here, don't be surprised to see more vehement forms of civil (and uncivil) protest.
Is that coming from your mouth, a self-proclaimed righteous guy who volunteers for the Special Olympics and who thinks that the police officers are heros? What are you going to do, Joe, when an Indian consultant will write an "Eclipse, Step by Step" book and publish it in the US for half the price of your book? Write to your senator and lobby for the deportation of all the Indians? Riot on the street? Become uncivil and harass the people who were more competitive that you are? Write "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" on the walls of the city hall?

Gotta Love 'em Russians

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <anonymous>:
People come to US on H1 or any visa to make a better life and achieve that american dream too and give their kids a better life. But you want to send them back who are already here. The thing that bothered me is NOT that you said to eliminate H1's why do you want to hit the stomachs of those people who are already here???

Arghhh!!! Don't you get it at all? H1-B holders are not immigrants. They are invited to the US for a specific period of time and when that time is up they are supposed to go home. I am not talking about any other class of immigrants. I love immigrants and am more than willing to increase the quota of immigrants into the USA. I am opposed to H1-B visas. They should be abolished.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Dude>:
Gives an opportunity to apply for green card, study the american history, take an exam and get the citizen ship. You stick to the rules do not commit any crime and in 10 years American rewards the people with a citizen ship.

Apparently you don't know the rules. H1-Bs are temporary visas and the holder is supposed to leave the country and return home when the visa is up. All I'm saying is that we should accelerate the expiration of the current holders and not issue anymore until they are needed again.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Arghhh!!! Don't you get it at all? H1-B holders are not immigrants. They are invited to the US for a specific period of time and when that time is up they are supposed to go home. I am not talking about any other class of immigrants. I love immigrants and am more than willing to increase the quota of immigrants into the USA. I am opposed to H1-B visas. They should be abolished.

Tom, I get it. You dont like indians period. this argument can go onto another 10 pages legal and illegal bull. why dont you retire this whole topic as it is and put it under archives. lets move on.
Joe, please go ahead and start putting pititions to politicians, start riots whatever that pleases and makes you safe that you get a Job. I am happy that neither me nor my kids live anywhere near your neighborhood

[Mapraputa Is]

What is the difference between pople who want to become US citizen and somehow managed to obtain an immigrant visa and those who also want to become US citizen but could only get a non-immigrant visa with hope to finally find a way to stay? The last group has to work harder! Why do you like one group and do not like another?
By the way, US government runs a lottery for green card giveway! You will like people who won more than those who first worked hard to get here and then lived and worked here for several years?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Apparently you don't know the rules. H1-Bs are temporary visas and the holder is supposed to leave the country and return home when the visa is up. All I'm saying is that we should accelerate the expiration of the current holders and not issue anymore until they are needed again.

ahem, You are "SUPPOSED" to leave the country if you DO NOT apply for your green card, there are also rules how to convert LEGALLY to a citizen. Well i applied and paid money and they gladly are going to give me one. AGAIN ACCORDING TO THE IMMIGRATION GUIDANCE RULES AND HELP OF AN IMMIGRATION LAWYER AND EVERY THING "LEGALLY" I AM GOING TO BE A CITIZEN (u got to have some benjamins though) there is nothing any one can do about it