Visas and Outsourcing

[Joe Pluta]

See Joe, this is the reason I wont want to debate with you anymore. You equate Indian firm with evil.
This is crap, Paul. I equate the abuse of visas with evil. Period. You're the one who then gets on his high horse and whines that it's all about Indians. I can't help it that the primary abusers of visas are Indian consulting firms. That's just the way it is.

And before I finish off, let me give you a brief insight into why I said what I said about McPress..
But with this single phrase, you undermine your entire argument. See, it's okay for you to generalize about an entire group of people you know NOTHING about, yet I get jumped for making inferences based on emails, which actually have information in them.
I don't apologize because nobody has proven that those individuals weren't newbies working on actual projects, you've only provided a possible alternative which frankly isn't very plausible - that these guys were working for free. How much are you willing to bet that the two emails I posted (and the tons of newbie questions we see) are ALL from people working for free?

Joe

[Ashwini Mehta]

A lil insight into Pluta's reasoning:
Normal person: .. and that is why we should not go in for massive deforestation, earth need more green!
Joe Pluta: Thank you - u have just proved my point - that all Ducks are green. You are an idiot - I have been right all along. Please apologize to the green ducks, sir! All other ducks are evil. PERIOD.
Now how can anyone argue with such *flawless* logic and clear insight?

[Joe Pluta]

Ashwini: on the basis on one post you SAY you on some site
Ashwini, it was two emails, and you can look them up on www.midrange.com yourself. They're in the archives, along with dozens of others like them. Anyway, now you're accusing me of lying, which means that we're at the end of decent conversation.
I didn't trash anyone, and your personal attacks are silly. But if you feel it necessary to continue them, have fun!

Ashok: those emails will not prove anything like that, and that�s NOT ALL what you said when you put it in the context of your article.
Actually, to everybody who I've talked to they pretty much prove exactly that, Ashok. The only people who don't agree are right here in this forum: you, Ashwini, Paul. The emails unequivocally show a newbie asking questions about a project they've been assigned to for which they are completely clueless.
Which is exactly what I said. What do YOU think I said in "the context" of my article?
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Normal person: .. and that is why we should not go in for massive deforestation, earth need more green!
Joe Pluta: Thank you - u have just proved my point - that all Ducks are green. You are an idiot - I have been right all along. Please apologize to the green ducks, sir! All other ducks are evil. PERIOD.

Thank you Ashwini for this post. Seriously. I'm going to use you and your recent posts as a shining example of an Indian developer. You will be my poster child for outsourcing. I assume the rest of you will be happy to have me using Ashwini's comments here to represent a typical Indian programmer.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Anyway, I am done now. The conversation, as Rufus predicted, is now on a very personal level.
And I won't use Ashwini as an example of a typcial Indian programmer, that would of course be a truly negative example of over-generalization. As I've said many times in the past, I've worked with programmers of all backgrounds who are wonderful, decent folks and great computer talents.
I just wanted to point out that because nobody counters those comments, it surely seems like it is the mindset of everybody here. For the rest of you to simply accept posts like Ashwini's means that you tacitly agree, and that's where animosity arises.
Okay, now I really am done .
Joe

[Rufus BugleWeed]

If you pay close attention you will notice that Ashwini registered on 11/25 for the sole purpose of participating in this thread. Ashwini is an anonymous coward with no real point to make. She's just here to heckle and jam up the thread.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
This is crap, Paul. I equate the abuse of visas with evil. Period. You're the one who then gets on his high horse and whines that it's all about Indians. I can't help it that the primary abusers of visas are Indian consulting firms. That's just the way it is.

Joe, I dont think I'll be the first person to accuse you of personal attacks and I definetly dont think I'll be the last if this is the way you are going to post here. Now who is being "less than cordial"? I dont think in any of my posts I have ever been less than respectful of your opinion.. if you disagree with me you have every right to state your argument and prove it but to dismiss my arguments as "whines" is.....

And before I finish off, let me give you a brief insight into why I said what I said about McPress..
But with this single phrase, you undermine your entire argument. See, it's okay for you to generalize about an entire group of people you know NOTHING about, yet I get jumped for making inferences based on emails, which actually have information in them.
I don't apologize because nobody has proven that those individuals weren't newbies working on actual projects, you've only provided a possible alternative which frankly isn't very plausible - that these guys were working for free. How much are you willing to bet that the two emails I posted (and the tons of newbie questions we see) are ALL from people working for free?

Didnt I apologize for generalizing already.. I was only stating my previous experience on ZDNet.com. I'll rephrase for you.. "And before I finish off, let me give you a brief insight into my previous experience at ZDNet.com.."
Joe, if an alternative argument doesnt agree with you you dismiss it as "not plausible" even though the alternative suggested is by a person who has seen ground reality, not making assumptions based off emails on a discussion board. To answer your question - are these newbies working for free? No, they are being paid by Wipro.. but Wipro does not charge the client for these resources. Wipro considers the money spent on these resources to be an investment for the future when they can be billed after they gain sufficient experience.
About 6 months ago, I hired a fresher(a moderator on this discussion board as well).. no professional experience but I knew this person had lots of talent. Now, 6 months later, I am proud to say this hire was among the best I ever made. He has excelled beyond anything that I imagined and I am not alone in stating that.. the client publicly stated it too. If I were like you and dismissed him only because he was a fresher... well!
Joe, I have had enough of this debate. I get the impression that "you dont give a dimes worth of your sense to my side of the argument" only because its not on your side. And I have seen others accuse you of the same before on MD.. so you decide who is speaking the truth here..
I'll let you have the last word, I dont care anymore because I know you dont want to change your views and I know I wont because I have seen reality not just read some excerpt somewhere..
P.S - If I were you, I would ignore the nonsense posted by Ashwini, I do it.
[ November 26, 2003: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Yeah you try and interview a young H1-B candidate and you will find the English is no so good. Visa abuser assures client that candidate is great. Once unqualified candidate is billing the rest of the billing members of visa abuser cover for candidate. Foreign nationals of the same country help too.
Ashwini and Teri, too.

[Patty Bernatz]

Originally posted by Teri To:

All resumes lie to a certain degree. That's what interviews are for.

I thought interviews were to get to know the person a little better, see their communication skills, have a discussion about certain information on their resume. Maybe that's why I'm still looking for a job, because I didn't lie on my resume.

[Ashwini Mehta]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I just wanted to point out that because nobody counters those comments, it surely seems like it is the mindset of everybody here. For the rest of you to simply accept posts like Ashwini's means that you tacitly agree, and that's where animosity arises.
Joe[/QB]

Just coz no one has said anything about my comments doesn't mean that they agree with everything I say - now thats generalization. In fact, if you take the time to read carefully, you'll see that someone has mentioned the fact that I have not been exactly polite.
Btw Rufus, to clear all doubts, my name IS ashwini mehta and I live n work in Dublin - do u want any more details? I have posted in MD quite a few times before ALWAYS with the name of Ash Mehta (look up the IP address bud before shooting off the mouth) Was always lazy to register till now but I got around to it now coz I wanted to participate in this particular thread.
Oh and Joe, in what way does IT outsourcing have ANYTHING to do with me - ur *poster child*??? No US firm should outsource because you don't like my attitude - like I said, u DO have flawless logic
If you dont like my attitude coz I don't gush over your article, then thats ur problem. If we all go by the same logic, then Eclipse Step by Step would have sales plummeting to zero.
I make personal attacks - well I did take a pot shot at you - BUT people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones (ref. Telling off Paul coz he is not as *brave* as u for standing up to forum backlash)
And now u may talk to tha hand coz I'm out of this thread.

[Joe Pluta]

This is not intended to further this discussion, but to respond to Paul.
((mutter mutter))
What? Speak up!
"I'm SORRY, Paul."

You're of course right. I did let my anger get the better of me, and I shouldn't have used words with high negative connotations like "whining". I'm just fed up with the fact that this whole thread is about generalization, and then you went and generalized against an entire group of people who you've never even met. ZDNet and MCPress are nothing like one another, and you wouldn't know because you've never been there.
I at least was generalizing based on real content. I didn't have the time to include all the many other newbie questions we get at www.midrange.com, so I picked a couple of ones that I thought would be clear to anyone. Go back and reread the one from the Wipro guy and tell me that you honestly think that's just a fresher who isn't being billed. If so, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
And that's really the crux of this whole conversation, so I'll leave it at that. I do apologize, however, for any personal animosity that showed in my post. It was unprofessional. The ever-escalating personal remarks by Ashwini sort of knocked me off-kilter for a moment, but that's no excuse for a lack of professionalism.
Joe

[Mark Herschberg]

A note from your friendly moderator:

Well, it looks like this discussion may be tettering on the line, if it hasn't crossed it already.
I certainly don't mind deep discussions of sensative issues, even though they get heated. Heck, I often bring the gasoline; but I also believe that it's possible to have a heated, but polite discussion.
Unfortunately, it looks like this thread is losing focus of the issues and moving towards the posters themselves. I don't think any one person crossed a line (although I haven't read the thread too closely), but the conversation is drifting as a whole.
I want to avoid the radical step of simply closing this thread, because I think it may be a worthwhile discussion. But maybe a recess would be in order. I would propose to the current posters that we take a voluntary break for Thanksgiving* and come back to it on Friday. This will hopefully give people time to reflect on the points made by the other side.
I also get the impression that in the heat of battle, perhaps opinions were not clearly heard above all the noise. So I would also recommend some of the key posters consider this as a "reset" and start again by clearly laying out their positions. Then we can all discuss the pros an cons of what's been set forth. This might allow us to look at the big topics and not minutia of particular phrasings.
The above are simply suggestions, and I am not trying to single out anyone in particular.
Happy holidays. :-)

--Mark
*Thanksgiving is US holiday where we take time to reflect on things for which we are thankful. I know not everyone is in the US, but everyone, in all countries, can take a moment to think about what they are thankful for.

[R K Singh]

Nothing more to say ...
But some questions for Joe.
Q) If as per your article, outsorced projects are developed by newbie, not-so-experienced people, then quality of the end-product will surely be of low quality.
If this is the case, may you give some sight why do these companies get repeat business.

[Joe Pluta]

If this is the case, may you give some sight why do these companies get repeat business.
From whom? I have yet to find one completed project in my industry, much less somebody getting repeat business. Please find me an example of an Indian company having repeat business in AS/400 development (which was the focus of my article, because it's about outsourcing my industry, AS/400 development).
All I've found so far is anecdotal evidence of budget overruns and missed deadlines.
Joe

[Ashwini Mehta]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

...AS/400 development (which was the focus of my article, because it's about outsourcing my industry, AS/400 development).
Joe

Maybe YOU should read your article once again - the only place where AS/400 is mentioned is the email extracts. You have attacked the Indian IT industry in general - NOT just with respect to "your" area AS/400.
"... I haven't been able to find any case studies where outsourcing saved the money it promised to... All I've found so far is anecdotal evidence of budget overruns and missed deadlines.."
You only see what you want to. Time will tell.
And now, as Mark has wisely suggested, its time to take a break...

[R K Singh]

I would like to see an answer for Ashwini's doubt ?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
All I've found so far is anecdotal evidence of budget overruns and missed deadlines.

it must be in your case

[Arjun Shastry]

I am not a TATA fan/enemy but their website says 75% of their businesses come from repeat client.Repeat Clients

[Varun Khanna]

I don't have access to non-tecnical sites in my company *anymore.
Can anyone paste the Joe's original article here?
getting more curious to read it.

[Ashwini Mehta]

Originally posted by V�r�n Kha�n�:
I don't have access to non-tecnical sites in my company *anymore.
Can anyone paste the Joe's original article here?
getting more curious to read it.

Actually you are not missing anything....
I've sent it to you as a pvt msg... not worth wasting everyones bandwidth on it.
Its probably not even worth all the attention its been generating, but its fun to hear the ludicrous and totally tangent arguments Pluta throws out now and again

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Ashwini Mehta:
its fun to hear the ludicrous and totally tangent arguments Pluta throws out now and again

I dont know how come pluta with so much intelligence is doing so ??

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I reread Joe's article. IMO, it's just sort of a ramble without a thesis.
I wish Joe would have expressed a thesis that is in harmony with the opinions that many on this board hold.

If there is or was a shortage of workers in any country to fill the need of an industry then the industry has options.
1. They can try to hire more workers from the domestic labor pool.
2. They can train workers.
3. They can outsource the work to any company anywhere in the world. Outsourcing company can bring some limited number of people into a country for some limited amount of time.
4. The H1-B and L-1 visa programs are subsidies to an industry at the expense of domestic labor. These programs need to be ended or severely curtailed. Entry of foreign nationals into a country should be handled through the countries normal immigration process.

Many of us do not care what sort of labor outsourcing contractor uses. The success or failure of any outsource project is an issue between the buyer and the seller. It is Tata, Wipro, Northrup Grumman, or IBM's right to decide what mix of experienced or newbie labor they employ on their projects.
Anybody anywhere can post any question to any board that will accept it.
IMO, it's Joe's right to say Indian software firms suck. Sun says Microsoft sucks. IBM says Bea sucks. You can say Rufus Bugleweed sucks except the JavaRanch prohibits is, sometimes anyway.
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

[shay Aluko]

I couldn't help but comment on this thread. The anger in this thread at times reflects the deep-seated frustrations of people who have invested a great deal of their lives into information technology and see everything slipping away due to no fault of theirs.For the Indians on this thread exhibiting righteous indignation at being dumped on because they are getting a lot of jobs that are leaving Europe and America, don't be self-righteous because you would feel the same way if the shoe were on the other foot and i daresay, India too will feel the effects of globalization when high-wage jobs leave india and go to Malaysia or Ghana (yes Ghana) it will happen. All the capitalist system does is labour arbitrage and advent of high-speed networks and has only speeded this up.If the Indians on this board want some examples i will give them some: some accounting firms are doing a high volume of work in Nigeria which has a large pool of educated accountants with ACCA's (british equivalent of CPA). There will be a lot of losers in this globalization trend and i don't buy all those hogwash macroeconomic arguments that the American economy would be better for it. Hasn't it struck anyone that most of the people making those macroeconomic arguments have secure jobs, are CEO' with lavish contracts whos don't have to suffer?. This is the future: its everyman for himself, do whatever you need to do to make money and stop your attachment to Java or any technology for that matter. You do work to make money, if you want fulfillment and satisfaction get a pet Iguana.Just my $.02

[Ashwini Mehta]

Originally posted by shay Aluko:
You do work to make money, if you want fulfillment and satisfaction get a pet Iguana

This really made me grin WIDE

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by shay Aluko:
i don't buy all those hogwash macroeconomic arguments that the American economy would be better for it. Hasn't it struck anyone that most of the people making those macroeconomic arguments have secure jobs, are CEO' with lavish contracts whos don't have to suffer?.

you are anti-capatilist or socialist

[Joe Pluta]

I reread Joe's article. IMO, it's just sort of a ramble without a thesis.
I wish Joe would have expressed a thesis that is in harmony with the opinions that many on this board hold.
That's exactly what I said, Rufus. 2500 of my words were about how visas in particular were subsidizing foreign labor. Everybody who has read my article and emailed me recognizes that. In fact, the only people who don't see that are the people here. And that's cool!
About 1/10th of the article pointed to the fact that we see a ton of newbie questions coming from these firms. The rest was specifically about visas, the close relationship between the consulting firms and the outsourcers, and the fact that we need to talk to Congress to get these bills repealed.
As to the industry focus that Ashwini and Ravish are missing, that entire site is devoted to the IBM midrange computer. They still don't get the idea that the article is written by someone in the midrange industry. Fine. I can't help that.
Anyway, the article and this thread have served their purpose for me. I heard opposing viewpoints, and I understand the topic a little better. And now I'm off to enjoy my holiday!
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
That's exactly what I said, Rufus. 2500 of my words were about how visas in particular were subsidizing foreign labor. Everybody who has read my article and emailed me recognizes that. In fact, the only people who don't see that are the people here. And that's cool!
About 1/10th of the article pointed to the fact that we see a ton of newbie questions coming from these firms.
Joe

First post by RK in this thread:

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Nice article except the mailing part.
I have seen equivalent foolish questions from non-Indians also and it suggests nothing.
So IMO, article's this part[[i]Isn't It Just Cheap Labor?] does not bring up anything.[/i]

we see a ton of newbie questions coming from these firms.
I dont get your point. Do you want to say these firms should not recruit fresh graduates.
Or employee of these firms should not post question in the forums.
And when you say "tons of newbie questions from these firms", it shows "fake" generalization.[which wont be accepted by you]
Now as old habbits die hard, I can assume that nothing better can be heard from the writer of the article.
You will always talk about your 10% of your article.

by Paul [thanks God, it is not by Ashwini ] :
Joe, thats my point. This whole discussion thread was about newbies, and thats why I got involved. If I felt you were right about newbies why in the world would I get involved?A discussion is supposed to have two sides.. (not neccessarily, but they generally do). I am on the opposing side because I feel you are wrong about newbies. And like you said, the this argument entails only 10% of your article.

Now having said all this, would like to know your view about repeat business NOW.

Originally posted by Capablanca Kepler:
I am not a TATA fan/enemy but their website says 75% of their businesses come from repeat client.Repeat Clients

AW enjoy your holidays.

[shay Aluko]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

you are anti-capatilist or socialist

On the contrary Mr Singh, I am neither a capitalist socialist or anything, I am a human being who needs food, shelter and the good things of life like anyone else on this board. You don't know me, don't label me

[Joe Pluta]

I dont get your point.
Or don't want to get. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. I did an excellent job of presenting the facts and my position on the matter. Feel free to your opinions. And anytime you want to show me a successful AS/400-based project, I'll be happy to hear about it. Until then, take care!
Joe

[Ashwini Mehta]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[QBI did an excellent job of presenting the facts and my position on the matter.
Joe[/QB]

thats a matter of opinion
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Ashwini Mehta ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

That claim about repeat business is just a lie from the marketing department to win more business.
Mr. Moderator or sheriff it's past time to silence the troll.

[Ashwini Mehta]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
That claim about repeat business is just a lie from the marketing department to win more business.

Random posts from a discussion forum prove that people on critical projects are mostly newbies. However, facts from the official site of the company is all lies.... I think thats going a bit too far.

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Mr. Moderator or sheriff it's past time to silence the troll.

My apologies I'll go back and edit that bit myself.

[Soham Mehta]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
In an effort to shake of my image as bland and non-controverisal , I have just published an article on visas and outsourcing that some of you might find interesting.
Click here to read the article.
Joe

Might this help get a different view?:
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-983066.html

[Rufus BugleWeed]

We've seen this before. A guy from Ireland has an opinion on how things should be across the pond. Most of his arguments are lame.
How about India open her boarders so that Mother India can achieve some cultural enlightenment?
Which other of his points is endearing to you?

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
That claim about repeat business is just a lie from the marketing department to win more business.
Mr. Moderator or sheriff it's past time to silence the troll.

I lost the reference. What posting is inappropriate?
--Mark

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

How about India open her boarders so that Mother India can achieve some cultural enlightenment?
I am not entirely sure what you meant by this, but if you are wondering why India is not allowing foreign IT professional to work in India, I have an answer. Answer is that there are thousands of American (and from non-Indian) IT workers in India, working for many different firms. I agree that India doesn't have a program equivalent to H1B, but considering the present Indian unemployment rate, and abundant supply of local IT engineers, its not difficult to understand why we don�t have one yet.
And if your reference is to the lack of a 'multi-cultural society as that of the USA', .. sigh..., I would suggest you read more about India before you make such a comment. India was more multi-cultural than what America is today, before the civilized world even discovered Americas!!
Which other of his points is endearing to you?
This point is:
In addition, H-1B computer professionals are highly-skilled and highly-educated. 56% of H-1B candidates, of whom over half are in the computer profession, have a bachelors degree, far above the national average in the United States (they don't break out education by profession in the Department of Labor study, but if they did, I bet the percentage would be even higher for programmers).

Peace!

[Paul McKenna]

Original Quote by Joe Pluta:
---------------------------
And if you want to know more, feel free to post on that thread. The discussion doesn't belong here. But no, I was not bad. If anything, I was too polite.

Ahem! Joe, I dont want to discuss this any further but I just wanted to let you know how forgetful you are. At first I thought I'd let it pass but it was you who said "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to say nothing". By the way, just to make sure you get my point as I meant it.. I am NOT equating you with evil but your merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your earlier statement.
This post is not open for further discussion so dont expect replies from me on this subject.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

RK: But you dont know under whom he is working and what is the final code.
No I don't, nor do you, so that's not the point. The point is this: are companies getting what they pay for?

I do know, ofcourse I work here dude and started my carrier as fresher/newbie (unluckily I was not experienced from the very first day I graduated).
Please dont assume any thing. Otherwise I have to call myself ass again

So, according to this, some 60% or more of the developers on any given project are freshers.
If you have any answer then May I know, how did you deduce this figure ??
My inferences are not wrong - by your own admission there are inexperienced people working on projects at consulting firms. That's really all I said.
If you REALLY just that want to say, then nobody will object.
BUT, please correct me if I am wrong, it seems that you want to say that quality suffer because of newbie programmer.

Thus the phrase "you get what you pay for."
Again, if they wont deliver quality product then there wont be any repeat business.
First you denied to accept that there is any word like REPEAT business in industry.
Now you know the fact that there are repeat business.
And it is not a marketting strategy.
Because I know, what does repeat business means. Because when we lose a client because of bad quality or delay in delivary, you dont know what happens.
Not getting a new client by marketting dept. is acceptable but losing a client because degraded quality is not acceptable at all. Project managers/ delivary managers are always in terrible pressure to give quality work in time.
And thats why they DO get repeat business.
I do not think it's right to have newbies with no experience working on any non-trivial part of my system.
Do you count trees first and then eat mango ??
Are you interested in end product or you are more interested in who is doing the job ??
If your whole issue is that newbie works on such projects then answer is YES.
They are very small % of over all team and they work as trainee first and during that period they learn to become another expert.
The emails show they are. That's all I said.
If you said that only then there is no issue.
You are trying to say that quality suffers because of this, which no one who is working in this industry will accept. (Please do correct me if I am wrong.)

Last but not least.
Because of low wages(as per US standards, but not after exchange rate), very much possible that American bro and sis might be losing their jobs.
My sympathies are with them and even I have no objection who oppose outsorucing/visa etc. [though I know my job will be on stake at that time.]
BUT I do object when one will say that quality is poor or anything like this.
Now let me try to conclude this thread:
Joe: There are in-experienced programmer.
Ans: Yes, no one denies.
Joe: Because of which end product is not of good quality. [Pleae correct me if I am wrong.]
Ans: OBJECTION. No, quality is not compromised.
If you (Joe) have to say anything about this objection then please do say I will try my best to show you the real picture.
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Joe Pluta]

Are you interested in end product or you are more interested in who is doing the job ??
The mark of good code is not whether it works when delivered. Good code is easy to modify by someone who has never seen it before. This is a primary difference between your philosophy and mine, and the reason I don't want newbies on my code.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

JP: If anything, I was too polite.
PM: Ahem! Joe, I dont want to discuss this any further but I just wanted to let you know how forgetful you are.
Paul, I wasn't talking about my comments to you, I was talking about Ashwini. So no, I am not forgetful, you're just incredibly self-centered and presumptuous. If you're going to be some kind of morality police, at least get your facts straight.
Gz.

This post is not open for further discussion so dont expect replies from me on this subject.
Then kindly just ignore me from now on, Paul. I'm tired of your constant scrutiny of my character, especially since it is based on your assumptions which are more often than not outrageously flawed.

Joe