• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • paul wheaton
Sheriffs:
  • Junilu Lacar
  • Paul Clapham
  • Knute Snortum
Saloon Keepers:
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Ron McLeod
  • Tim Moores
  • salvin francis
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Tim Holloway
  • Frits Walraven
  • Vijitha Kumara

Current Facts about offshoring  RSS feed

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1934
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


Part of the problem with that is US management is reluctant to hire and train freshers. Sometimes, a fresher can write just as good code as a person with 4-5 years experience. Example; it doesnt take experience to write a function that adds numbers. This is one of the basics that any college graduate would learn.

Instead US management believes in this false notion that experience can deliver superior results. True to a certain extent.. but not always. I have worked with some brilliant freshers and some duffer veterans to realize that experience doesnt always count.



Oh boy posting after a long time ha!!!

I guess they started removing posts of ur interest from MD forum.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
How much is the average pay of an average programmer in India w/ 3 yrs of experience? Do most in India work in permanent positions, or do some work as contractors as well?
Thanks,
[ September 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]


(1$ = 46 Indian Rupees currently)
It varies.Infosys/Wipro might give 3,50000 Rs per year where as Texas Intrument might give 500000.Heuwei technology(Chinese firm) used to give 800000.There is a traditional difference between hiring in India and other places.Big offshore companies like Sun/TI/Oracle empasize on your degree(BE ,equalivalent of BS or higher) and your grades .Indian companies are much stricter in hiring for freshers.Even if you are a genius programmer but college drop out(or do not have BS degree) forget earning in Indian IT company.
Like many other countries,there are small/medium/big firms which offer different salaries.
Yes,most Indian programmers/analyst work in permanent positions.Contracting concept is not popular here although people in website design,technical support mainly for call centers are contractors.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1272
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

The big product ideas still originate in the US and the big Computer Science ideas seem to start in Europe.

Huh? That isn't my impression - could you clarify?





US: Microprocessor, Video Game, PC, Mac, Spreadsheet, Internet, WWW, Java, ...



Europe: Computer (Babbage & Turing), Structured programming, Linux (not the product per se, but the disciplined open source paradigm)

I should have also included Bell Labs and US Universities as major sources of CS ideas. mea culpa



Asia: ?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 8934
Firefox Browser Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
China will be the new super power. Chinese people are more hard working than others.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 820
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Given that China is physically closer to Europe as well



It may well be a bit nearer to Europe, but the distances involved mean that a journey from China to the USA is probably about as much hassle as a trip to Europe - both will be a long trip by air anyway. Probably more important that physical distance is cultural distance. One of the reasons why USA and Europe trade so much is because of cultural similarities - if China wants to become trade partners with either of these then they will have to find a way of bridging that cultural divide. I'd be willing to bet that they will be more likely to be flexible in this than USA or Europe.
 
Joe King
Ranch Hand
Posts: 820
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Gary is only 30 miles from Chicago.... It looks similar to a scene from the British movie, 13 Days Later.



Does that include the blood sucking zombies?
.
.
.

or have all the lawyers left the town as well?
 
Joe King
Ranch Hand
Posts: 820
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm not sure that the EU and the USA really have much to complain about. Like it or not, we're capitalists and have just spent the best part of the last 50 years or so telling everyone about how great capitalism is and how world trade is going to make things better. For most of that time we've benefited a great deal from it. Capitalism is a double edged sword though - we can't expect to reap the benefits of it without risking loosing out from it as well. The entire system works by allowing people who can do things more efficiently to take advantage of this by making more money. The fact that some people seemed to be shocked that "our" industries can move to places like India and China is a bit odd - a bit like talking on the phone for 3 days and then getting shocked when the bill comes in. The western world has pushed for a global market and now is seeing some of the down sides. In the long term we will have tremendous benefits - a large thriving global market is a good thing, but we have to accept that hand in hand with the benefits come the risks that someone else out there can also take a share of the benefits.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Joe King:


Does that include the blood sucking zombies?
.
.
.

or have all the lawyers left the town as well?



Sorry, no "blood sucking zombies" in Gary.
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What is the current state of the IT employment market in Europe? Is it similar to America?
 
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 8934
Firefox Browser Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
How much is the average pay of an average programmer in India w/ 3 yrs of experience? Do most in India work in permanent positions, or do some work as contractors as well?

Thanks,

[ September 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]



1/12 th of US salary.
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


1/12 th of US salary.



I heard a report on T.V not too long ago that claims that the average pay of a top notch Indian programmer is $20,000 = 916,600 INR
That seems more than 1/12 of a US salary.

Nevertheless, if it is 1/12, does 1/12 go a long way in India? In other words, can an Indian programmer (earning 1/12 of the US Salary), live a comfortable life?

Thanks,
[ October 01, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
 
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


I heard a report on T.V not too long ago that claims that the average pay of a top notch Indian programmer is $20,000 = 916,600 INR
That seems more than 1/12 of a US salary.

Nevertheless, if it is 1/12, does 1/12 go a long way in India? In other words, can an Indian programmer (earning 1/12 of the US Salary), live a comfortable life?

Thanks,

[ October 01, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]


I think that salary is too inflated.How to define top notch programmer I don't know.One who codes fast and prefect /one has many certifications/One who has good acads and good experience or all of these?Ofcourse some people are earning $20000 with 4 years experience in SAP and some J2EE background etc.I know 2 people who are HelpDesk Administrators working with big offshore company earning $15000 per/year with 3 years of experience.Are they top notch?
$20,000 is more than sufficient(may be 1.5 times the salary of President of India or even more)to live comfortable life.Comfortable life means:
1)1/2 bed room apartment
2)Car
3)Exotic food on week end
4)Purchasing items on week end with credit cards
5)All necessary luxury items.
right?
then in this salary its easily possible.
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Since many now in India have spending power, is the cost of living rising? Is it rising rapidly, slowly, or not at all? I guess, the report that I mentioned earlier, meant top notch by someone who is well versed in his / her profession, with at least 3 years of experience. I am just speculating, since the report was rather vague on the precise meaning of "top notch."

Thanks,
 
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Since many now in India have spending power, is the cost of living rising? Is it rising rapidly, slowly, or not at all? I guess, the report that I mentioned earlier, meant top notch by someone who is well versed in his / her profession, with at least 3 years of experience. I am just speculating, since the report was rather vague on the precise meaning of "top notch."

Thanks,


In these 'many', programmers or people in IT in general may be 0.01% or even less.IMO growth rate is between slow and rapid.
3 years exp. programmer,may be $8500 to 10000$ per year.This is very vague observation and depends on various factors like region/company etc.
(Its 12:47 AM,going to sleep)

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1033
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
In these 'many', programmers or people in IT in general may be 0.01% or even less.IMO growth rate is between slow and rapid.
3 years exp. programmer,may be $8500 to 10000$ per year.This is very vague observation and depends on various factors like region/company etc.
(Its 12:47 AM,going to sleep)



What does a nice 3br family house (not a highrise flat) cost in Bangalore? I've heard some almost North American numbers such as 50 to 75 lakh, are these typical or the high end?
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by peter wooster:


What does a nice 3br family house (not a highrise flat) cost in Bangalore? I've heard some almost North American numbers such as 50 to 75 lakh, are these typical or the high end?



What is lakh?

Thanks,
[ October 01, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
 
pie sneak
Posts: 4727
Mac Ruby VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Back to the real topic here:

Dallas cowboys(american football) are called Americas team.



I've never heard them called this. In fact, if you took a poll across America of the most HATED football team in the NFL... you would more than likely end up with Dallas in the top few. A decade ago, they would have topped the list for sure.

Anyway, I've noticed more and more aliens to the US sports leagues. How much longer before we start offshoring the franchises? Maybe then the title "World Champions" would hold more water. What will be the first step in this? NFL US vs NFL Europe? Wouldn't that be fun?
[ October 01, 2004: Message edited by: Marc Peabody ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 254
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lakh is Indian equivalent of 100,000. So 10 lakh equals 1 million.

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


What is lakh?

Thanks,

[ October 01, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]

 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Kripal Singh:
Lakh is Indian equivalent of 100,000. So 10 lakh equals 1 million.



Is a Lakh = 100,000 INR or 100,000 US$?
 
peter wooster
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1033
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


Is a Lakh = 100,000 INR or 100,000 US$?



100,000 INR or about $2000 US.

So 80 lakh is $160,000 US. Here's what that buys in suburban Syracuse NY. USA.

How does this compare to what 80 lakh buys in Bangalore?
 
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by peter wooster:

100,000 INR or about $2000 US.

So 80 lakh is $160,000 US. Here's what that buys in suburban Syracuse NY. USA.
How does this compare to what 80 lakh buys in Bangalore?


Selling house with all these amenities is not very popular in India.As real estate market is much concentrated in and around few cities very few people sell houses.Now to build the house starting from puchasing land plot to inviting guests on inouguration,price may reach to Rs 80 Lakhs in cities like Bangalore/Chennai/Delhi.
Prices for apartment varies from city to city and location.
Each 3 bedroom apartment will cost 23-24 lakhs,thats 52,000$
Each apartment here will cost 45 laks thats 93000$
This is by one well known builder.
Now you can imagine how much offshore companies must have spent money.
Real estate market is always inflated bcos lack of space.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1211
IntelliJ IDE Mac
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


Is a Lakh = 100,000 INR or 100,000 US$?



Well 1 Lakh INR = 100,000 INR, and 1 Lakh USD = 100,000 USD

It is just a unit of measurement equal to one hundred thousand.
 
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 8934
Firefox Browser Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


I heard a report on T.V not too long ago that claims that the average pay of a top notch Indian programmer is $20,000 = 916,600 INR
That seems more than 1/12 of a US salary.

Nevertheless, if it is 1/12, does 1/12 go a long way in India? In other words, can an Indian programmer (earning 1/12 of the US Salary), live a comfortable life?

Thanks,

[ October 01, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]



20,000 $ , you must be joking. How many years of experince are you taking about. Everyone is software guy in Bangalore.
[ October 02, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


20,000 $ , you must be joking. How many years of experince are you taking about. Everyone is software guy in Bangalore.

[ October 02, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]


Do you mean that 20K US is not enough or too much?
 
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 8934
Firefox Browser Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:

Do you mean that 20K US is not enough or too much?



MY opinion - Few years back software engineer could have had comfortable life. Now only "rich" software guys can lead comfortable life
Software guys who have worked in US can afford many luxuries.

Could you tell me 20k$ was salary of how many expierenced guy? :roll:
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


MY opinion - Few years back software engineer could have had comfortable life. Now only "rich" software guys can lead comfortable life
Software guys who have worked in US can afford many luxuries.

Could you tell me 20k$ was salary of how many expierenced guy? :roll:



My question is, does 20k$ seem to high or too low? If you read one of my previous posts on this thread, you will see that 20k refers to 3 yrs of experience.
 
blacksmith
Posts: 1332
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
peter wooster:

So 80 lakh is $160,000 US. Here's what that buys in suburban Syracuse NY. USA.

And here's what it will buy in Cambridge, MA:

There are a total of 119 properties in 02139.
0 match your search criteria.

 
Mike Gershman
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1272
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We have to consider an Indian programmer living an Indian upper-middle class lifestyle, not an American lifestyle. Based on the posts on this BB, $20K is more than enough.

I wonder what happens when an Indian programmer brings his family back to India after a few years in the US. Do they try to recreate Boston in Bangalore? Is that even possible on $20K?

As for a rapid rise in Indian salaries, there are plenty of other countries with bright young people who can learn j2ee and English just fine. That will put a long-term salary cap on all but the genuine experts. The danger would be a short-term rise in salaries fueled by lots of job-hopping (as with the US Internet bubble) while the other countries come up to speed. Once you get used big money, it's hard to adjust to less.
[ October 02, 2004: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
 
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
We have to consider an Indian programmer living an Indian upper-middle class lifestyle, not an American lifestyle. Based on the posts on this BB, $20K is more than enough.

I wonder what happens when an Indian programmer brings his family back to India after a few years in the US. Do they try to recreate Boston in Bangalore? Is that even possible on $20K?

As for a rapid rise in Indian salaries, there are plenty of other countries with bright young people who can learn j2ee and English just fine. That will put a long-term salary cap on all but the genuine experts. The danger would be a short-term rise in salaries fueled by lots of job-hopping (as with the US Internet bubble) while the other countries come up to speed. Once you get used big money, it's hard to adjust to less.
[ October 02, 2004: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]


I know few people who have been in USA for around 10 years and possess Green Card and now returned to India with family.These candidates are perfect choice for offshore companies as they don't need visa to travel to USA.They are hired as Project Managers/TeamLeaders etc .Salary may range from $1500 to $2000 or even more(depending on profile of person/company).
$20K per year MORE THAN enough for flashy lifestyle.These people are aware that they are now earning much less but job security at this moment is better in India.Also these people can again return back to USA if they think salary is not sufficient.Investment done in real estate is always benificial in long term.
{
The danger would be a short-term rise in salaries fueled by lots of job-hopping (as with the US Internet bubble) while the other countries come up to speed.
}
Yes,nobody knows till how long this salary bubble will last.
 
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 8934
Firefox Browser Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
$20 k for 3 years I guess only 1-2% people get so much.
 
peter wooster
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1033
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Warren Dew:
And here's what it will buy in Cambridge, MA:

There are a total of 119 properties in 02139.
0 match your search criteria.



That is exactly my point, the cost of living in many of "the flyover states" including parts of NY is not that much higher than it is in Bangalore. Certain locations like Cambridge, and Palo Alto are grossly overpriced. If you must set up shop near an Ivy League University, there's always Ithaca.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 360
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Like US in India also salary varies based on company, role, technology and location. I think, on average, people with around 5-6 years of experience and working in big companies might be getting around 8-12K USD per annum. Architects, PMs and above might get > 12K USD per annum.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5093
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
What is the current state of the IT employment market in Europe? Is it similar to America?



non-existent or as good as.
Some companies are hiring but most are stagnant. All new projects seem to be offshored to eastern Europe (Poland, Russia, Ukraine and Czech republic) or SE Asia (mainly Pakistan, India and Indonesia).
As a result entry level jobs are non-existent and senior jobs impossible to fill (noone wants to risk quitting his job for the uncertainty of a new work environment and possible termination after a few months).

So yes, it's similar to what the US was earlier this year or late last year.
 
Bartender
Posts: 20568
120
Android Eclipse IDE Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Why you can't just scale linearly (correct me if I'm wrong)

Servants
India 1-2 Lahk/yr
US $10-12,000 (minumum wage) + benefits

Decent J2EE development computer (new) YMMV
India: 32,000INR
US: $800

Are they really paying programmers $20K now? Or is it just manager.
 
Greenhorn
Posts: 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
yes the salary goes to 15 - 20 K for senior J2EE developers. Often these people play the role of Use Case Designers and subsequently developers in the offsite model. They need to be people with ability to understand architectures/ make designs and implement them. An arhcitect may make 20 - 30 K defininitely enough for lavish lifestyle. But again these salaries are subjective and these figures apply to well defined project teams.

And all of us offshore are well aware of some overbearing onsiters mostly Indians settled there.

I have to add that as a generalisation American onsiters are much very reasonable and clear on technology. Most know what OO is all know how to use OO in projects.
 
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
Why you can't just scale linearly (correct me if I'm wrong)
Decent J2EE development computer (new) YMMV
India: 32,000INR
US: $800
Are they really paying programmers $20K now? Or is it just manager.


3-5 years exp. programmers are getting 32,000 INR/month(My vauge observation!).We are talking about programmer means who codes for application development(and not microprocessor,embedded etc applications).Programmers(in embedded,kernel,OS level devl) in those category are earning slightly higher.Companies working in these areas are mainly offshore shops,Indian govt. agencies,semi govt.agencies and very few Indian shops.Majority of Indian software companies and offshores are mainly into application support/application development.
Now $800 per month,thats 9600 or 10,000$ per year.$20,000 ,as already discussed in one thread was a rare.But people having >=7-8 years of experience are getting now a days(my observation!).Again these people are not necessarily with 7/8 years of programming experience.But combination of tech support+coding+data modelling(or any other which is related with computer)+'on site' experience(considered to be most 'valuable').Now very few offshore companies are offering these kind of salaries.America Online in Banaglore was offering $13,000 per year for (Linux/Unix) administration job.I m not sure how many years of experience they were looking for.
Yes,$20000 is mainly for managers(in India).As per my knowledge managers in India are retitled as Business Analyst in USA.People who are returning from USA but having Green Card fall into this category as they will be having most onsite experience.
For more details see about Oracle hiring and expected experience.
Max New York Life
Hoeywell
General motors
[ October 08, 2004: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]
[ October 08, 2004: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]
 
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand
Posts: 985
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by shashank joshi:

And all of us offshore are well aware of some overbearing onsiters mostly Indians settled there.

I have to add that as a generalisation American onsiters are much very reasonable and clear on technology. Most know what OO is all know how to use OO in projects.



Please elaborate on these points.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 376
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As far as salaries go: It doesn't help to do a straight comparison between $ and Rs. But from experience, I feel that a person who has about 4 years of experience gets a salary in India that has approximately the same purchasing power as in the US. He/she will be able to afford buying a home on a bank loan, just like a progammer in the US. It will most probably be a 2 bedroom home. He/she will be able to buy a decent car (not a luxury car) and take care of it. He /she will be able to take a vacation once a year to some nice place. If that person lives smart and makes wise decisions, they can pretty much maintain the same standard of living.

I saw some previous posts that talk about offshoring projects that have failed... and I wanted to mention that I,

(not a friend, not a friend's friend) along with 40 other people have worked on 4 different offshoring projects (three in the US, and one in Europe), all of which are huge successes and all of which are going on for the last three years. I have seen letters from the client appreciating the work that we do, appreciating the quick turn over time for tasks (based on the difference in time. Eg. There was one project, where we had 5 engineers onsite working with expensive equipment that couldn't be shipped to India based on the NDA. We made our changes (using a simulator to test against) during our day, and shipped them, they tested it during their day and gave us the results)
The trick is choosing the right project to offshore - The projects I worked on were maintenance projects, projects with lots of enhancements and change requests for an existing product, and only one involved the development of a brand new product from scratch. And we had a rock solid process in place, without which my projects would have not stood a chance.
Projects that require intensive communication with the client and knowledge of the local environment are typically not good candidates for offshoring.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2166
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Hu Jiabao:
People should must take control of themselves as theyare part of globalazation



@Hu Jiabao:
Strange that simplest solutions to all those problems comes from someone working in country with highest growth rate.

Sometimes its difficult to understand that one gains 20% less despite of having become 50% more efficient.

A lot of us live in a more insecure environment than our parents.
Bitterness, complaining and agression does not solve anything.
 
peter wooster
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1033
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

A lot of us live in a more insecure environment than our parents.
Bitterness, complaining and agression does not solve anything.



I don't know which generation you are refereing to as "our parents", but if its the "baby boomers" who entered the workforce in the late 60s and early 70s you should ask them about their early days in the job market. 1971 was a very bad year for university graduates, there were more of them than in any preceding year and there were no jobs. The economy was in a shambles, the US was fighting a losing battle in an ill concieved war and the Republicans were rigging the next election. A common line was "stick with Nixon in 72, why change Dicks in the middle of a screw".

All CS jobs required many years of experience with OS/360 MFT2, and CICS, on a 360 model 75 or better. To actually have this experience you would have needed to be part of the development team at IBM.

A PHD was jokingly refered to as a "professional hack driver" (taxi cab) or "professional honeytruck driver" (septic tank cleaner). Those with lesser degrees (unless they happened to be in high demand areas such as CS or Nuclear Physics) were relegated to working at McDonalds. Your CS degree would let you babysit some mainframe for low wages and outrageous hours.

All jobs required experience, there was no way to get the experience, since that required a job that required experience.

Dick ended the "stupid little war" and was impeached in 75 and the Republicans were temporarily turfed out of office in 76.

Somehow all these people worked through that bad patch, most got jobs in their field eventually and went on to have good careers.

As the American election approaches the proverb that "those who ignore history are bound to repeat it" comes to mind. Bitterness etc. doesn't solve anything, but political involvement may.
[ October 08, 2004: Message edited by: peter wooster ]
 
No. No. No. No. Changed my mind. Wanna come down. To see this tiny ad:
global solutions you can do at home or in your backyard
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/better-world-boo
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!