Y do u do this 2 ur posts

[Jamie Robertson]

Originally posted by ravish kumar:
...You all are talking abt ethics of english. As I told you even I was not using these shorts and acronyms. but now I use. I find it helpful...

I think you are missing the point that we, the people against net jargon, are trying to make. It's not about english language ethics, because this jargon is not english. Fortunately, it never will be. If there is one point that we are trying to make, it is that jargon or lingo of any kind reduces the effectiveness of 2-way communication. Thus, at a site where communication is vital (Meaningless Drivel exempt ), we should do everything that we can to ensure that we are effectively communicating.
Jamie

[Valentin Crettaz]

Right, there are no shorts so I'll write my very last post on this topic, after that I'll put my "free" time and effort to a good cause because I'm obviously loosing my time around here with a bunch of homo sapiens.
Just so you know, I haven't "taken it to my heart", I don't take it personally either, your opinion is worth any other.
I am usually a "sporting" person but only with people who deserve it. I hate lazyness. Lazyness is the cancer of this world and apparently the disease has already gained some ground.
You didn't hurt me (nor anyone else I guess), don't worry. Meaningless drivel is a good place for yelling at people after all and I usually enjoy a good debate.

[Thomas Paul]

Ravish, you wrote this:
I am E & C (Electronics and Communication) engg.(plz don't say that this is shorts.. it's accepted acronym for engineer) and as a fact in communiaction engg(Though as it was total theory papae I used to avoid it) but still waht do I remember today, there was one topic on Redundancy which accepts that if because of noise even some data is lost still we can recover by the original information.
First, your English is only so-so and your constant use of abbreviations makes it more difficult to read what you are writing. I had to read the above 5 times before I could figure out what you are saying.
Second, I have never seen anyone use "engg" as an abbreviation for engineer.

[Roy Ben Ami]

Ravish, i appreciate your contributaion to this discussion (at least one person backing me up here).
i agree 100% with what u wrote, (i think i said it beofre many times )
anyway, i think we made our point and stand by it proudly !
not everyone should agree with us, and if they dont like Valentin said, they dont have to answer my questions, but i will keep using short forms as i like them and dont think ANYBODY has any REAL problem understanding them. its fun for the sake of discussion to appear like u dont ndersatnd u and y but in REALITY most people do. the ones who dont, bless them and may they live in peace.
ps.
as for the offended thing, i didnt mean u Ravish, but i meant Jason comment. i dont think insultng people or writing in bad language (ie curses) is suited in any forum, even if it is meanigless drive.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
...not everyone should agree with us...

No-one does!! Sorry it was just too tempting not to say that I had to.
On an even lighter note, isn't it odd that a topic about the use of shorts has grown to have over 80 posts so far?
Dave

[Valentin Crettaz]

Actually, it sounds more interesting to talk about how short forms are dumb than to discuss people's religious convictions. We are halfway through, 80 posts to go and we catch up with erich brant's thread

[Corey McGlone]

...i += 5 for i = i + 5; (We are saving here only one key stroke)...

BZZZT! Wrong! Come on guys, didn't anyone else catch this one? I know the post was long and full of shorts and I didn't take the time to read the thing because it was painful, but I did spot this...
The += operator, like all extended arithmetic assignment operators in Java, performs an implicit cast. That allows you to use these operators on various other data types, which are shorter than an int. Take for example, a byte. This will produce and error:

byte b = 0;
b = b + 1;

But this will not:

byte b = 0;
b += 1;

The += operator adds an implicit cast. Therefore b = b + 1; IS NOT the same as b += 1; Rather, b += 1 is equivalent to b = (TYPE OF b)(b + 1);
I'd like to point out that this saves more than one keystroke.
Corey

[Valentin Crettaz]

Corey,

Come on guys, didn't anyone else catch this one?

Actually I did but I didn't want to hijack the thread as you did
I just didn't feel like loosing my time explaining those kind of things which don't belong to this forum anyway. Moreover, I swore not to answer posts containing short-forms, so I just applied the rule.

[Jamie Robertson]

I'm surprised that after 80 posts, we are still talking about the exact topic of the subject line. Every post was about this topic. I don't know if I've ever seen this before!
Jamie
of course, this is now off topic, so the on topic streak has ended!

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
as for the offended thing, i didnt mean u Ravish, but i meant Jason comment. i dont think insultng people or writing in bad language (ie curses) is suited in any forum, even if it is meanigless drive.

Actually there weren't any curses in the post. "lamers" and "suckers" are hardly curses.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
as for the offended thing, i didnt mean u Ravish, but i meant Jason comment. i dont think insultng people or writing in bad language (ie curses) is suited in any forum, even if it is meanigless drive.

Not to repeat myself, but.... There was no cursing, and no insulting. Your being offended I can only assume is due to your lack of comprehension.

[Roy Ben Ami]

hey Jason and Thomas, you lamers and suckers!!!

[Roy Ben Ami]

Jason and Thomas, if u tell me you werent offended by the above post then u r better men than me.
btw, the above post was for demonstration purposes only, no malice or harm intended.
and lets return this post to its origianl topic: short forms.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:

btw, the above post was for demonstration purposes only, no malice or harm intended.

If no malice or harm was intended then they probably didn't take offense.

Dave

[Thomas Paul]

I'm definitely a lamer. I try not to be a sucker but I am fairly easy to fool.
And neither of those are curses.

[Jason Menard]

Lamer here. Been suckered many a time as well.
Since you were obviously demonstrating a point, as I was, I would have no reason to take offense anyway.

[Michael Matola]

Originally posted by Michael Matola:
MM> Would you write that way in a memo to your boss or management?
Originally posted by ravish kumar:
RK> Do you think official and personal way of wrirting is same ??

No, of course not. (Actually I even know the word for the distinction: it's called register.)
The distinction I was making was not between "official" and "personal" but between "professional" and "unprofessional."
I think this forum is worthy of a higher register than the short forms under discussion. From the extensive discussion it's clear that some people agree with this point, while others do not.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

[Thomas Paul]

Think of it this way, you are using your real name and this site is well searched by the major search engines. Do you want your prospective employer to see your posts with "u" "y" "bcoz" etc? Or do you want them to think that you are intelligent and able to write and think clearly?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Corey McGlone:
[QB][/QB]

Hi Corey ,
the concept is copied from C++., (I think from 'C')
and in C++ there is no byte or short(what I can recollect right now) there are only int and long primitive type.(I might be wrong)
What was/is the need for i++ and += operator(as what compiler is doing can be done by pressing some few more keys) ??
TIA
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Valentin Crettaz:
Right, there are no shorts so I'll write my very last post on this topic

Thanks a lot !!
But only if you could have open your eyes then you would have been able to see that my last 5-6 post does not have shorts(at least I tried to avoid them), but to see them you have to come out of your shell.

I'm obviously loosing my time around here with a bunch of homo sapiens.

are you not homo sapiens

I am usually a "sporting" person but only with people who deserve it. I hate lazyness. Lazyness is the cancer of this world and apparently the disease has already gained some ground.

well said !!
has any one seen a lazy person typing for half an hour(my typing speed is slow, cause I am not professional ), seraching google to prove his point, copying and pasting quotes of others friends and then modifying them to comment on them ???

Meaningless drivel is a good place for yelling at people after all and I usually enjoy a good debate.

Me too
I like everyone here .....

[Dharmesh Chheda]

POSTED BY VALENTIN Right, there are no shorts so I'll write my very last post on this topic

forgot counting ?.... u havent stuck to what u meant .... and i luv short forms .. so i personally think that they are valid .. and people who dont understand the posts written in short forms . .. better dont read them
no hard feelings .. bye for now ..have a nice time

[R K Singh]

First, your English is only so-so

My english is poor.

and your constant use of abbreviations makes it more difficult to read what you are writing.

did you find any shorts and abbreviations in my last 6-7 posts??

Second, I have never seen anyone use "engg" as an abbreviation for engineer.

It might be for Engineering..... I will check it out and correct myself. Thanks for correction !

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:

If there is one point that we are trying to make, it is that jargon or lingo of any kind reduces the effectiveness of 2-way communication.

thanks for coming up with a point.
We must communicate in a way that the person with whom we are communicating should understand it.
it took me one month to find out meaning of HTH/HIH(even it is not available in pages I visited for most common net acronyms)
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What do HTH and TIA mean?

ask Val

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
Ravish, i appreciate your contributaion to this discussion (at least one person backing me up here).
i agree 100% with what u wrote, (i think i said it beofre many times )
anyway, i think we made our point and stand by it proudly !
not everyone should agree with us, and if they dont like Valentin said, they dont have to answer my questions, but i will keep using short forms as i like them and dont think ANYBODY has any REAL problem understanding them. its fun for the sake of discussion to appear like u dont ndersatnd u and y but in REALITY most people do. the ones who dont, bless them and may they live in peace.
ps.
as for the offended thing, i didnt mean u Ravish, but i meant Jason comment. i dont think insultng people or writing in bad language (ie curses) is suited in any forum, even if it is meanigless drive.

hi Roy
Thanks a lot to u for coming back (here I can use u as u understand u is for you. )
I am just standing for what I think is right.
and what do I remember right now it was you and Val who once corrected me on the discussion regarding keyword & reserved words
or it was Rob..... I am getting old
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:

isn't it odd that a topic about the use of shorts has grown to have over 80 posts so far?
Dave

I LIKE IT

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Corey McGlone:
I know the post was long and full of shorts and I didn't take the time to read the thing because it was painful, but I did spot this...

Hi Corey
Will you please show me a shorts used by me in that post. It is there in quotes which are from posts of my friends.
I specially avioded shorts to convey my message as Jamie said that we should communicate in language which other communicator can understand.
you have to come out of your shell also
AW what about C++, why do they have this(++, +=) ???
Val you can also reply, I like your replies like any other rancher. Yes, it might become slightly technical discussion ... but I think everyone(atleast I am interested to know, so that I can correct myself) TIA.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What do HTH and TIA mean?

Originally posted by Valentin Crettaz:
ravish,
in "Hope That Helps" we have 15 characters which come at the end of almost every post. This kind of abbreviation is useful because you type only 3 characters instead of 15.

don't tell me, I have updated myself
Thomas Paul, now do you get the meaning of HTH and TIA.
AW TIA is for Thanks In Advance.
HUH??
I do not know why some people can not take the answer the way they give answers.
Most of the time, I copied and modified the replies I got (might be because of my being a scorpio)
No harsh feelings please
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[David O'Meara]

In all seriousness, I interpreted TIA as a .signature...
Boy is my face red
DOM
(just in case things are settling down: No contractions on the Ranch! )

[R K Singh]

Now finally to sum up:
some one came and asked .. is it OK to use shorts ?
some of us said YES, and some said NO.(enough to start discussion to go up to 110 replies )
To not to use shorts points came up like
*) they are hideous/confusing,
*) they are not professional,
*) they are non international.
I tried my best:
*)to show what is professionalism.
*)I proved that even acronyms may be as confusing as shorts.
*)shorts have come up because of global(international) nature of internet.
I could figure out only that:
Excesive use of any thing is confusing/hideous/non-International and non-professional.
CMIW
TIA
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:
I don't know if I've ever seen this before!

Expect unexpected !!!
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[Dharmesh Chheda]

wow ravish do thoughts strike you periodically?... i mean you can sum everything in one post .. look at you ?.... you have nearly given 12-13 posts consecutively...man thats some heavy duty posting....
no one is replying and you keep on posting .. and please dont mention those words as no hard feelings and stuff in each post .. no one on javaranch mind whatever is told about them .. so cut that out .. ok dude.. have a nice time .. and bye man

[David O'Meara]

(in the style of my favourite argumentative friends...)
S, f d cn'tns r 'k, ths 'k.
(So, if the contractions are OK, this is OK.)
The only valid English is English. Everything else is garbled rubbish.
Dave says: If you want to communicate, do so, but do it in a manner that causes the least problems since we already have enough language issues.
Oh, and just to cause more outrage: there's no such thing as 'American English' (did I miss anyone? )

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Dharmesh Chheda:
wow ravish do thoughts strike you periodically?... i mean you can sum everything in one post .. look at you ?.... you have nearly given 12-13 posts consecutively...man thats some heavy duty posting....
no one is replying and you keep on posting .. and please dont mention those words as no hard feelings and stuff in each post .. no one on javaranch mind whatever is told about them .. so cut that out .. ok dude.. have a nice time .. and bye man

My dear Dharmesh
Look you replied
don't count no of post... as I did not wanted to make my single post to be that large that people avoid to read.
(there are some who said:

I know the post was long and full of shorts and I didn't take the time to read the thing.

I want this guy also to read it
)
and I wanted to reply to each individual.
(will you please just copy and paste my all post and make a big post and post it here .... I might delete my previous posts)
and no one is replying ... cause I think there is night as I was not able to comment when they were posting as here in India it was night at that time.
Or they have got the message that they are wrong on some points
PS: Look I have deleted that post ... I respect your feelings
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Dave says: If you want to communicate, do so, but do it in a manner that causes the least problems since we already have enough language issues.

even I hate to discuss such issues like language ... but I think we are not discussing any language here.

there's no such thing as 'American English' (did I miss anyone? )

what is Flat in building?
what is story in appartment?

what is motion picture?
what is cinema/movie ??

I think that you guys could not prove anything except your POST of bartender.
I LIKE IT
Plaese find more information on American english here
(Searched the web for 'American English'. Results 1 - 10 of about 2,360,000. Search took 0.11 seconds.
)
HTH
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[Thomas Paul]

What does "CMIW" mean?
I wish everyone would just write everything out.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What does "CMIW" mean?

Correct Me IF I am Wrong
(I wrote here initailly : No Comments)

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I wish everyone would just write everything out.

Agree , would like to modify slightly "your post should be readable and must be understood by most of the reader" and atleast it should convey the message you want to convey without any redundancy.
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[Jamie Robertson]

ravish:
Well thank you for personally ensuring that my topic made it to 100+ posts.
BUT...I think that you lied when you said your english skills were weak.

My english is poor.

since you have been writing out your posts, I have seen that you english skills are excellent! eg.

We must communicate in a way that the person with whom we are communicating should understand it.

It just wouldn't have the same impact if you said "V must communic8 in a way that the prson wth whom v r communic8ing shud undrstand it."
Maybe you just appear smarter when you completely type out your thoughts?
Jamie

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:
ravish:
Well thank you for personally ensuring that my topic made it to 100+ posts.

Hi Jamie,
I am also tired (searching, providing links, and typing..... and not getting any answer )
and now I do not want to talk sensible things...
Ya if you want we can make this thread to go up to 200
I am typing non-sense non-sense non-sense non-sense.
and will take this thread to upto 200+, it will increase my no of posts too
so sad here more then 8 smileies are not allowed
NJOY life !

[Corey McGlone]

Originally posted by ravish kumar:

AW what about C++, why do they have this(++, +=) ???

I believe this is starting to get off topic. For one thing, how we write in a programming language is dictated by a set of rules (so that your code can be validated by a compiler or interpreter). For any sort of professional communication, I feel that we should adhere to the rules of the English language. In such a case, each of us is a human compiler/interpreter. If someone begins using shorts, the compiler has to try to make assumptions about what you really meant and we all know what happens when you start making assumptions. Therefore, in order to ensure that the compiler can understand what you mean, you have to follow the rules of the language explicitly.
In many programming languages, there are a number of short formats of common operations, as you've pointed out here. For example, in C++, I can write i++ or i += j. These are short formats for i = i + 1 and i = i + j, respectively, but they are specifically defined for C++, unlike shorts are for English.
So why do we use them when we program? Some people mentioned speed reading and being able to comprehend words simply by looking at their structure. I would bet that most programmers would understand i++ as an increment to i faster than they'd understand that i = i + 1 is an increment to i based upon the structure. Why do programmers recognize this so easily? Because it is defined in the rules of the language. When you learn C++, you learn that the ++ operator increments a variable. I relate this to the use of contractions in English. When you learn English, you learn that can't is equivalent to can not. Everyone knows because it's a rule. You do not, however, learn that "y" is equivalent to "why." In order to figure that out, the reader has to make an assumption.
I think this really comes down to effective communication. I don't know you. I know nothing about the context of your question or your frame of mind. Therefore, all I have to go on is what you write. Often, I'm confused by even well written posts because I don't understand where the poster is "coming from." When excessive shorts are used, this effect is only magnified, which makes replying intelligently to the post more difficult.
I guess I don't see how using short formats for things in programming languages really supports using them for English. I'm sorry if my previous post (in which I pointed out that i++ in Java saves more than a couple keystrokes) made it appear as if it did. That wasn't really my intention. Rather, I was blindly hijacking the thread, as Val caught so wonderfully. If anything, I think using short forms in programming languages shows that you shouldn't use shorts because they don't follow the rules of the language. Just think what would happen if you decided to make a short version of the ++ operator and just use 'P' (because "plus" starts with P). Hmm, I wonder what the compiler would do with iP?
Corey