Clash of Civilizations!!

[Cindy Glass]

Why does conversion promote hatred?
If others are free to choose their own religion and THEY do not like what the Christians or whoever are telling them, they just won't convert.
If they WANT to convert and you DON'T want them to - then you are promoting some pretty severe restrictions on freedom.
If you just don't want your folks exposed to the Christians who are "sharing" their point of view, because you FEAR that they might convert, then they were not very strong in their current convictions anyway. You preventing them from converting is not really the problem - it is their lack of belief in the current religion that is the problem.
If you are convinced that they DO believe strongly then a few little Christians hanging around offering other ideas is certainly not going to cause any problems.
Part of freedom is being exposed to what their is to choose from. Otherwise it is religious repression.
I will keep reminding myself of that every time I have to avoid those Hari Krishna folks at the airports :roll: .

[Anonymous]

{
Why does conversion promote hatred?
}
Conversion does not promote hatred. It is the mode of conversion that does. Conversion done by fooling poor people, by offering them money and bad mouthing the local culture and with an ulterior motive is what most people are against.

[Jason Menard]

Of course then there are always the forced conversions of Christians to Hindus, but we probably don't want to talk about that, do we?
The truth is, even though there have have been government inquiries looking into whether or not Christians are forcefully converting anyone, there has been no proof of any kind that has been uncovered. This simply is a myth that is propogated by popular hate groups, I mean political parties, such as BJP, RSS, and VHP.
Their true motives are evident when you see that the ruling BJP party is even attacking NGOs, claiming that they are using "foreign money" to further foreign interests. The reality is that these groups have a problem with any group, be they Christian missionaries or NGOs that seek to empower and educate minorities and the poor. The reasons for this are obvious as these groups still cling to medeival concepts such as the caste system. Empowered, educated, free-thinking minorities and poor are the absolute last thing that these groups want, as they see it a threat to their own positions.
The fact is, until India addresses its poverty problem, and until people like some here get over their baseless fears, lose their immense superiority complex concerning the "poor" and minorities, and work constructively to solve the problems related to poverty (education, fertility rate, healthcare, food, housing, sanitation, employment, etc...), India will forever remain a third world country.
[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

They say Indians are very prosperous everywhere in the world except India. I wonder what it is about the place and the culture that causes this to occur?
I knew I could count on the Indians to give me a "Yankee Go Home". Atta Boy!
When the proselytes show up at my door I try to turn them from God. I ask them if god created the earth and the heavens, who created god? Why does god make us endure cancer? Faith... :roll:

[Mapraputa Is]

If the local culture is leaving people starving then perhaps it needs to be bad mouthed.
So how often do you change cultures? And on which ground, which is promising a bigger benefit? Would you get a better mother for yourself, if another woman could provide a better treatment? I can see how it can work wonderfully for you, if your culture consists mostly of pragmatism, but other cultures do not.

[Anonymous]

This article is 4 years old but still valid,exposing RSS's hidden fascist agenda.

[Anonymous]

'Gujarat is our laboratory,We want to repeat these experiments in other parts of India'RSS.
Saffron Terror
Stoking the fires

[Lalooprasad Yadav]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
It has been shown throughout history that a majority of a nation often demonizes a minority and places the blame for all of societies ills on their shoulders.

Germans once believed that Jews conducted human sacrifice, drank the blood of German children etc.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm#Antisem
Japanese people believe that Koreans have sex with ducks. It couldn't have been a pleasant experience for the duck.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Nagaland and Mizoram, states in India have a majority Christian population( in excess of 80%). Guess what .. these states have experienced the most violence.
Most Latin American countries have a majority Christian population.They are still thirld world.
India has its share of problems.Why add to the problems by forcefully converting tribals and injecting hate?

[Paavam Payyan]

Originally posted by <slacker>:
Nagaland and Mizoram, states in India have a majority Christian population( in excess of 80%). Guess what .. these states have experienced the most violence.

That means nothing!
Missionaries have done a lot of good work down south, in Kerala.
Conversions actually helped to defeat the cast system that was in practice about 60 years ago in Kerala. My grandfather used to tell me stories about how furious his father was when all his servants became Christians overnight.
Having said that, I do not think asking some one to change his religion in return of aid is any good. If its to defeat cast system or such evils of a society, its great and thats the way to go. But, if its just for the sake of spreading a religion, that is a bad thing to do.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by <slacker>:
Why add to the problems by forcefully converting tribals and injecting hate?

Since you brought it up... While there is no evidence of Christians forcefully converting anyone, there is evidence of Hindu extremists (BJP I believe in at least one case) forcefully converting Christian tribals and animist tribals to Hinduism.

[Paavam Payyan]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Who is being "forcefully" converted. Do the missionaries hold guns to their heads and threaten them? The only hate that is being injected is the hate of people like slacker who can't stand the idea of people finding a better way of life.

Force here is not gun but money. Its funny but I read about some one who got himself 'converted' four times over a month in different places and he was richer by Rs 1000/- (about $20)!!

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:


Germans once believed that Jews conducted human sacrifice, drank the blood of German children etc.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm#Antisem
Japanese people believe that Koreans have sex with ducks. It couldn't have been a pleasant experience for the duck.

Lalooprasad,
the sad truth is, that a lot of germans did not really believe this propaganda.
They just loved to be stupid.
"great" material.
"Thanks"

[Amitabh Sharma]

Warning: This news report is very harsh criticism of the US and may be offensive to Americans. Having lived in North America, I do not agree with most things said in this article about Americans but yet I am curious if there is any truth in what is being said.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2002/oct/16rss.htm

India has its $58 billion in US banks. China's $160 billion and Japan's trillions of dollars are invested in the US. While we invested $58 billion in the US, the US invested only $20 billion in India. We get 1-1.5 per cent interest on our deposits in the US, whereas the US invests the same money back in India and gets 5 per cent interest," he explained to the thousands of Swayamsevaks and admirers gathered.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Paavam Payyan:
I do not think asking some one to change his religion in return of aid is any good.

There is no evidence that this is going on. While I am sure people are choosing to convert, it is not as a precondition for receiving any kind of aid.
Let's think about it. You are a lower caste poor individual who really has nothing going for him. The system you live under basically says you are worthless and you will never be anything other than worthless.
So this group of other guys comes in. They don't believe you are worthless. They provide healthcare and they provide education, as welll as food and other things to help make your situation a little better. You ask these missionaries why they are helping you out, since you are a lower caste person and basically worthless.
They tell you that they don't believe in that. They tell you about this guy named Jesus who travelled around helping out the sick and preaching a message of peace . They tell you that Jesus is the son of God and that it is His message of peace and love that Jesus is sharing with the world. They tell you of God's message to Man, His miracles, how the world was created, and what our place is in it.
Now this is something you've never heard before. You've always been told that you are a person of the lowest order who really has no hope in life. You see these strange missionaries, and even though you would think they must be of a higher caste, you see that they help you and don't treat you like the higher castes. You like the message they are bringing you and it gives you hope. You decide that what this Jesus guy has been saying makes a lot of sense to you and decide to follow him.
So where's the problem in that type of situation. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes and see if you can figure out where they might be coming from.
Being secular isn't just a catch phrase. It's a tolerance for other's religions, regardless that they might differ from your own. It's accepting the choices others make regarding their faith and keeping your nose out of their business. The fact that you even have religious violence casts serious doubts as to the depth of your secularism. The fact that the ruling party of the country is made up of Hindu extremists that perpetrate violence against other religions and forcefully convert Christians and animists casts an even larger shadow of doubt.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

There's some truth that American savings habits and adoption of a ME centered culture are bad. But the US does not force anybody to invest in US economy. People invest in US economy because they are interested in hom much money they can make for themselves.
I don't think US citizens have got any kind of monopoly on greed either.
If US model is so bad, why do so many H1-B's get so annoyed when people call for stopping them from leaving the 3rd world and sending those who have escaped back?

[Anonymous]

{
The problem of violence in these areas has apparently been caused by attempts by India to control them. India has repeatedly sent armies to occupy Nagaland in order to retain control of the area.
http://www.unpo.org/news/news2001Q3/Tale-Naga-2001Q3.htm
}
The site which you post here is from a seperatatist movement which has started in Nagaland, which actually proves my point.
People who never saw their neighbours through religious eyes have now started doing so.

[Anonymous]

{
That means nothing!
}
Maybe you are right. But how come only people in these states convert?It has always puzzled me.Even Kerala where Christianity arrived before it reached Europe, dosent have so many converts.
{
Missionaries have done a lot of good work down south, in Kerala.
Conversions actually helped to defeat the cast system that was in practice about 60 years ago in Kerala. My grandfather used to tell me stories about how furious his father was when all his servants became Christians overnight.
}
I agree that some missionaries have helped setting up schools and hospitals, but a lot many of them have become a nuisance.
Conversion has helped defeat the caste system??How? The christian sect in Kerala has been divided into so many castes..It is laughable. At the top of the class are the high and mighty Syrian Christians , who claim they are the original converts who converted when St. Thomas came to India.
Give some credit to the Communist government there, who were partly responsible for social justice in Kerala

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Paavam Payyan:
Force here is not gun but money. Its funny but I read about some one who got himself 'converted' four times over a month in different places and he was richer by Rs 1000/- (about $20)!!

Why in the world would you consider this guy converted? He obviously is NOT. Just calling yourself a Christian or a Hindu does not make it SO. The world is full of hustlers like this one.
You have to actually embrace the beliefs of the religion to become a Christian or a Hindu or whatever.
And I assure you, if anyone thinks that becoming a Christian has anything to do with getting more money or material goods - that is just NOT going to happen. Read the book of JOB in the Bible some time. The point is that you have to stick to your beliefs EVEN IF you lose all your worldly goods and are beset with problems. Belief and Faith are about your heart, not your pocketbook.
The Christian religion is full of extremely poor folks. The point is that Christianity teaches that it DOESN'T MATTER that you are poor - you are still just as good as the next guy in the things that count.

[Paavam Payyan]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

There is no evidence that this is going on. While I am sure people are choosing to convert, it is not as a precondition for receiving any kind of aid.
I KNOW what is going on my backyard. I do not have a CNN link to show you this, and thats because I am too lazy to search for it and post it here. Well, another thing is I don't think a page on the Internet 'proves' anything. They said 'World is flat' remember?


So where's the problem in that type of situation. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes and see if you can figure out where they might be coming from.
None. Nothing at all, but its just too good to be true though. Its the most ideal situation, and if its like that, its brilliant. But unfortunately, its not always like that. There is a hundred other facts that some one considers before getting converted, and the easiest way to get any one to take a decision is to entice him with what he need most - Money!
Jason, its not easy for you to understand the complex state of social and religious situation in India. If you think these things works on a toggle mode - either a religion is good or bad, cast system IS there, or NOT there, etc etc, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I, from my own experience really believes that conversions are good if its for a purpose - as I said before to beat a social evil. If its to spread a religion, its just disgusting. Let me also add that I know what I am talking about, because I have been living there, actively involved in many of such social welfare issues myself.
Being secular isn't just a catch phrase. It's a tolerance for other's religions, regardless that they might differ from your own.
Now may I ask, are the missionaries tolerant to the religion that poor and needy already follow? Do not tell me its their religion that causes poverty to them!
...
You see only what you want to see. Again, these things doesnt work in a toggle mode.

[Pranav Jaidka]

Jason /Thomas Paul
As a Hindu Im not too worried about my culture because India inspite of being ruled by Muslims for over 500 years and christians for over 200 is still 85% Hindu ??? Surprised ?? Shocked??
Not One single country in the world was capable of that.
Talk about violence in India against minorities....Why does this happen against christians, and muslims(for those who posted the gujrat links). Why not against Buddhists,Sikhs ,Jains and the hundreds of other communities. Is it because theres somethign wrong with these religions themselves???
You people call people from outside 'Aliens'......we have accepted and lived with people from all over the world for over 1000 years.....More than Americas total young baby like history.
Enough said about India.......you talk about us looking into our backyards for problems......We say the same to you. Most of your arguments are from worthless websites from where you cut and paste links.
Im sure I can find a million things about the US from the Al Jazeera website alone .But thats just taking a narrow perspective and not getting the complete picture.
If youre posting just for the sake of argument .Im sorry I wasted my time and yours with this post. However I fail to understand how you can argue on something based only on Google results.
How many of you have visited India and have posted based on your real life observations ??? I will argue about pluses and minuses with you Sir.

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Let's think about it. You are a lower caste poor individual who really has nothing going for him. The system you live under basically says you are worthless and you will never be anything other than worthless.
......... EXAMPLES TO SUPPORT JASONS ARGUMENT............UNTIL.............
The fact that the ruling party of the country is made up of Hindu extremists that perpetrate violence against other religions and forcefully convert Christians and animists casts an even larger shadow of doubt.

Jason/Thomas ...unlike you I have managed to experience 2 democracies (India and the US ) I dont see to many differences.....heres my defence.......

If I change your post only slightly....Your post becomes.......
Let's think about it. You are a Black individual who really has nothing going for him. The system you live under basically says you are worthless and you will never be anything other than worthless.........................Blah Blah blah...........
The fact that the ruling party of the country is made up of Whites that perpetrate favouritsim against other ethnic groups and then talk about 'Free will' casts an even larger shadow of doubt.[/QB]
Im sure you are well read and dont need me to support what I want to convey to you.Just as an Example(Even though ive asked this before on javaranc).......
How many black presidents have you had (if you want to talk about treatment to minorities )???
We in India have had at least 4 (Including Dr A Kalam who presently heads the country)???
My advice ...know whats going on in the rest of the world..before you take up an altruistic approach towards communities you dont know about and offer your unwanted help.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma:

http://www.rediff.com/money/2002/oct/16rss.htm

The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh should visit some courses basic of economics, before talking too loud.
The actual crisis is due to a lack of demand because of rising uncertainity of companies and consumer. So its good that at least the Americans still buy a lot. Because they buy a lot (and save so less) they have a huge trade deficit with China, Japon, Europe and I suppose India. If they decide buy less there will be more unemployment in these countries.
Great part of the investment which flows in the USA is financial investment. This is different from direct investment (building plants, subsidiaries and the like). Financial investment is very volatile. It can very easily be taken away from the country. Plants is a different story. Its easier to sell papers on a stock market than to sell a plant. Also direct investment goes hand in hand with technology transfer.
A high savings rate has effects on the real economy through low interest rates (good for investment). O.k. if they offer their savings in the US, it lowers interest rates in the USA. But the Japanese interest rate is for years under 1%. So there really isn't a lack of saving in Japan.
Jagdish Bhagwati actually is a more monetarism oriented economician. And if a monetarist says the saving quote is to high India, you should believe him. More often they warn to not to spend too much.
Axel

[Paavam Payyan]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

Why in the world would you consider this guy converted? He obviously is NOT.

Can't agree more, Cindy. Thats the point. Sadly this is what is going on out there! This is bad work from so called 'missionaries' - just to get their numbers good, or to make sure their 'targets' are met.
Slacker - I was talking about the cast system in Hinduism. Low cast people found it really easy to get converted, and upper class Hindus (of Kerala, 50-60 years before) had to treat them better because they are now Christians. Today I can proudly say that there is no cast system in Kerala. Of course, today there is a bunch of sects/groups in all religions thinking that they are better than the other group - Human nature.
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Paavam Payyan ]

[Pranav Jaidka]

Oh well Jason.........I guess pavaan payaam and I said basically the same things......so I guess everyone feels the same about your arguments.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Jason /Thomas Paul
As a Hindu Im not too worried about my culture because India inspite of being ruled by Muslims for over 500 years and christians for over 200 is still 85% Hindu ??? Surprised ?? Shocked??
Not One single country in the world was capable of that.

An interesting mix of superiority and victimhood that some of you guys consistantly display.

Talk about violence in India against minorities....Why does this happen against christians, and muslims(for those who posted the gujrat links).

Yes, I'm sure it is the victim's fault that people are perpetrating violence against them. They asked for it and deserve it, right? :roll:

You people call people from outside 'Aliens'......we have accepted and lived with people from all over the world for over 1000 years.....More than Americas total young baby like history.

We do not call people from outside "Aliens" as such. "Alien" is a term used in conjunction with an immigration status and has an official meaning. As the vast majority of our country is made up of "people from outside", we normally just call them Americans. I wouldn't brag about "over 1000 years". All that says is you should have gotten your act together by this time.

Most of your arguments are from worthless websites from where you cut and paste links.

But still you have yet to offer any argument against them. I believe that you will find that some of those sites are generally accepted as being quite credible however.

However I fail to understand how you can argue on something based only on Google results.

And I fail to understand why you keep making baseless accusations with no supporting evidence.

How many of you have visited India and have posted based on your real life observations ???

And I would have to ask you how many of you have even the slightest clue about Christianity or Islam for that matter? I don't need to go to India to recognize extremism though. The rhetoric is the same be it Muslim extremism, Hindu extremism, Christian extremism, or whatever. The poorly supported arguments and demonization of others are the same in every case.

Im sure you are well read and dont need me to support what I want to convey to you.Just as an Example(Even though ive asked this before on javaranc).......
How many black presidents have you had (if you want to talk about treatment to minorities )???
We in India have had at least 4 (Including Dr A Kalam who presently heads the country)???

You don't seem to understand race relations in the US. While they are far from perfect, they are pretty damn good after such a poor start in our very short history. We were able to relatively quickly recognize our mistakes and are constantly striving to better ourselves in that regards.
Your changing my quote to try to make a point was quite a bit off base and actually only serves to amplify your ignorance over race relations in the US. While none of our 43 Presidents has been black, it is only a matter of time. We have had candidates before, but unfortunately Jesse Jackson wasn't a very strong one. Personally I'll be first in line to vote for Colin Powell if he were to ever make a run for it (if his wife changes her mind and lets him run that is). Regardless, we do have "minorities" (that term is very relative) in just about every position of power in this country, be it State Governor, Mayor, judge, Congressman, Secretary of State, National Security Advisor to the President, US Ambassador, Police Chief, Corporate CEO, etc...
What we don't do is have large-scale ethnic or religious based violence. We do not burn people alive because of their beliefs. We don't force people to accept any particular faith. Our political parties are not formed on the basis of ethnic or religious superiority. I say "we", but this also applies to the rest of the major nations of the world as well.

My advice ...know whats going on in the rest of the world..before you take up an altruistic approach towards communities you dont know about and offer your unwanted help.

My advice to you would be to take a zero tolerance approach towards extremism instead of trying to justify it. I'm not offering my help, merely my condemnation.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

More than Americas total young baby like history.

There may well be an ocean between North America and Greece and Rome. We brought plenty of of ancient culture with us from the old world.
After 1000 years of Indian culture, what does one find, a screwed up country. India was conquered by the British, because India is a slow learner.

[Jason Menard]

To piggy back on what Thomas said, we also have people who go door-to-door looking for converts, or walk the streets (or airports) looking to convince people to give their particular brand of religion a try. I've seen this behaivor in Europe and Japan as well. Do we feel offended or threatened? No, we simply politely tell them we're not interested and have a nice day, or take them up on their offer to read their literature or attend their Church. It's simple really.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

After 1000 years of Indian culture, what does one find, a screwed up country. India was conquered by the British, because India is a slow learner.

Sorry, but that's not fair.
- mongolic and turk people occupied big parts of eastern europe between 5th and 6th century.
- Between 8th and 12th century big part of South Europe (Spain) was occupied by arabic people.
- Between 15th and 18th century whole south east europe was occupied by turkish people.
- Japanese/East Asia conquered great part of the electronics and car markets in Europe and North Ammerica in the 1980th.

[Pranav Jaidka]

JASON : You are the most difficult person to reason out with because you REFUSE to see the other persons point and go on a tirade about what YOU 'think' is right.
MY OFFER AS PROOF WHICH YOU SO OFTEN HAVE REQUESTED : I can sponsor a trip for you to India . Will take you to all these sites you mentioned and If possible try and get you to interact with the locals. Form your opinions after this. Im sure like a million other people who visit India every year...you too shall see what were trying to convey to you. Probably will end up visiting the county again and again. And yeah you probably would feel Safer there than you do in this country of yours where you have 'Neighbourhoods' youre not supposed to visit after 6 (Based on your skin colour if I may add) or where you have 8 year old kids undergoing Therapy or 13 year old Mothers .
Is that CULTURE ??? Is that Civilization ??? Im sorry but for Me its not. Or is it just FREEDOM whcih you enjoy a lot of???
Violence anywhere is wrong.....its happened In Kashmir where Hindus were in minority and were thrown out of their houses overnight(In a Hindu dominated country though) .Its happened in Gujarat where Muslims were in Minority .
By the way .....what happened to the NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS ???
One you of said that I am supporting this Violence...because i did not say anything against it.......Seriously man get a life . I thought I would not have to criticize it explicitly to make you understand. But for your sake .....its WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Jason : 'And I would have to ask you how many of you have even the slightest clue about Christianity or Islam for that matter'

I have read the bible if thats what you meant. Now have you read the Gita or the Ramayana ??
And for your information neither the Gita/Ramayana nor the Bible preach violence. However as you might know...Crusades and Jehad were not associated with Hinduism (In its 2 million year old history).
These are however corrupted interpretations of some peoples twisted logic.
The violence in India you see nowadays is not religious .Its more political and I think everyone in India including the victims know that.
Rufus : India being a screwed up country ???
Is that the reason its one of 7 nuclear capable nations and only one of 3-4 nations with their own sattellites around the Earth ..and only the 3rd(Im not sure about that) nation which I assume will put a man on the moon in the next few years.
Give credit where its due. I as an Indian accept the faults where they are .
And God knows why were arguing So much when both countries have their own drawbacks.
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Personally I'll be first in line to vote for Colin Powell if he were to ever make a run for it

< hijack >
EVERYBODY would have voted for Colin Powell if he had run for President. The problem is that he is too honorable a man to mess around in that dirty political playground.
Can't say that I blame him.
< /hijack >

[Pakka Desi]

Thomas: Your quote, "If the local culture is leaving people starving then perhaps it needs to be bad mouthed." is hilarious.
If christianity were the solution for all evils, there wouldn't be any poverty in eastern europe. And if exporting christianity were a means to eliviate problems, go and check our African countries. If you think Indian culture is something to be bad mouthed about, go look at your southern neighbours.
No culture is bad Mr. Thomas Paul. What is bad is the forceful superimposition of one culture over another. Which is what we are against. I never said that Cristianity is good or bad. That is none of my business. But I don't want it making trouble in my country.
You people are all asking what is wrong if one willfully converts to another religion. I say there is nothing wrong in that. BUT BUT BUT, that is NOT the case in India. Poor people DO NOT have an option. Because of their poverty they are unable to understand what they are doing. It's like luring a child by showing a lollipop. That is NOT free will. It is a fraud.
Jason, you keep on asking for proof. Only if I show you a link on CNN you will agree. But you are not believing what people have seen and experienced on their own. Why don't you go there yourself and check out? If you can't then please don't get hung up on the proof. Because proof is there, you are not ready to go and see it for yourself.
Rufus Bugleweed: Your quote, "Yankee Go Home". Atta Boy!" proves that you are just jumping in without even understanding the issue here. Kindly read the posts and try to understand the topic of the discussion.
I want to repeat this again because you people are taking it totally wrong:
We do not have an issue if a person is converting on his own, under his senses and without any force (economical or otherwise).
So much for the conversion. There is another thing that we are against. This part comes AFTER the conversion. The islamic clerics and the christian clerics (again, not all but most of them) are sowing the seeds of hatred against Hindu people. I hear you asking for proof, Jason. Please attend any mass in any church in India and you'll know.
Further, do you not agree that Muslims have had a long history of destroying Hindu temples and building their Mosques there? Well, they are unable to do that now but there basic tendency is the same. Their mullahs preach that Hindus are kafirs.
Thomas, you have mentioned that US culture changes with time. And I agree with that and I even appreciate it. But US has been successfull not just because of christianty. It has been successfull (this is my understanding) because people from different culture have contributed and assimilated into the US culture. No one tried to force one culture over another but everybody learnt from each other's culture and took good points from it. US culture is not christian culture. It is US culture.
This is what we want in India. And it has always been Indian culture to assimilate everybody into it's own fold. Indian culture has never been static. However, Muslims and Christians refuse of mingle with the local culture. They want to paint the whole country as Muslim or Christian. A case in point is our President (who is also the father of India's missile program). He is a muslim. Indian government (Hindu government, you'll say) according him the top most honour. However, muslims people say that he is not a muslim at all. Why? Because he plays Vina (musical instrument played by the Goddess of Knowledge) and he reads Gita.
Jason, our fight is not to prove Hindu superiority over any other religion. Our fight is against the resistance of Muslims and Christians to mix with the local culture.
Again, some people have said that what Muslims are doing in different places (jehad, ban agaist art forms etc.) are not realy following Islam. Well, it may be true but it does not help. We have to deal with what people are practicing and not what the religion actually says.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
MY OFFER AS PROOF WHICH YOU SO OFTEN HAVE REQUESTED : I can sponsor a trip for you to India .

All that would prove is that we like some of the people and that it is a nice place to visit.
Nobody is saying that the Indian people are not nice. Nobody is saying that there is not a lot of interesting history in India. I personally would LOVE to take you up on that offer. Poverty of course prevents it :roll: .
But that does not mean that as cultures and polical bodies that both India and the US have their major problems. To tell you the truth, probably most militant Islams are rather nice as individuals. That does not mean that their philosophy of terrorism is acceptable.
We were talking about Indias difficulties with allowing other religions to do missionary work there.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
Poor people DO NOT have an option. Because of their poverty they are unable to understand what they are doing. It's like luring a child by showing a lollipop.

Talk about bigoted, high-handed, presumtuous trash!!
"They can't think for themselves, therefore I will think for them!"
In the WORST of the slavery times in America this was the EXACT SAME EXCUSE that the slave owners used!
It was a lousy excuse back then, and it is a lousy excuse now.

[Pranav Jaidka]

Cindy
I totally agree with you that we need to look into problems which both indians and Americans have. But my american friends seem more interested in India's Problems .
As for conversions there are 2 ways to do it.
1) Educate the people about Christianity and Hinduism .
Leave Choice to people.
2) Offer Money /Education/Clothes ......Where is religion even in the picture in this case.
What i dont understand is ........Since all these christian Missionaries are People of God why not offer Money/Education/Clothes to EVERYONE who needs it Rather than offering it only to people to convert to Christianity.
Im sure even though the method is subtle it definitely interferes with the cultures and traditions of society and will not be taken well in any country let alone INdia.
No one said a hoot to Mother Teresa . She was worshipped As a Saint because she really wanted to HELP !!! Not offer money and covert people to Christianity.
Thomas ??? Jason ?? Rufus ??
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

Talk about bigoted, high-handed, presumtuous trash!!
"They can't think for themselves, therefore I will think for them!"
In the WORST of the slavery times in America this was the EXACT SAME EXCUSE that the slave owners used!
It was a lousy excuse back then, and it is a lousy excuse now.

You are getting red unnecessarily.
1. I am not thinking for them on their behalf. I am thinking for my country on my behalf. It is my belief that converting poor people by giving money is unacceptable for our country. And I am trying to convince people about it.
2. Your comparison of this with slavery in US is devoid of any logic. There is a huge difference between slavery and poverty. In India, poor are free to do whatever they want. They are not slaves.
As for the lower cast people, there is 30% or more reservation for jobs in all gevernment sectors including seats for higher medical and engineering educations. There are now laws that prevent discrimination based on castism. In cities, castism is allmost gone but in villages it is still there but the situation is definitely improving.

[Axel Janssen]

In Germany we have around 50% protestants 38% catholics, 10% muslims (immigrants), 1% jews and 1% Budhists, Hinduists, Animists (locals).
From the christians I would say that 80% does not practise their religion.
Protestantism and catholism for me are like 2 religions. The basic attitudes are different in some important points.
I know from Chile the issue of protestants who try to convert locals from catolism.
They target poor people. We don't have that here. We have some holy men from asia who look for middle class followers, because they have more money. But not that much.
I talked one night with one of these missionaires. A young american. It was interesting to talk with him, but he had no luck to convert me in a protestant. I am catholic who does not care much about.
Are these missionares really such a problem? I know an elderly very catholic chilean lady, who does not complain about. She says things like before the father of that family drunk a lot, but now after conversion to protestantism they are better off.
O.k. missionaires are like salespeople. They think in selling their thing. But maybe it helps some of the poor to have better living. New perspectives through religion change.
If you want an open culture, why don't you just accept it?

[Pranav Jaidka]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

All that would prove is that we like some of the people and that it is a nice place to visit.

Thats the Idea Cindy .

I personally would LOVE to take you up on that offer. Poverty of course prevents it :roll: .

You mean Me ?? Well I made the offer right,Im doing pretty ok !!! India is not all that poor Cindy ...its just the way the media in the West portrays it.....but thats a whole new can of worms.
No, I mean ME. I could NOT come up with that much money. < sigh > .
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[Cindy Glass]

I agree that missionaries should try to help everyone - not just those that say that they "convert".
Part of the problem with this discussion is that you seem to lump all of the Christian Missionaries and Americans together as one big group. Surely there are Christian missionairies over there that are not American (like Mother Teresa). There is NOT one big Christian Church in the sky that sends missionaries abroad and counts the conversions.
Most missionaries are funded by small churches in the US and are not strongly linked to any of the other missionaries. (The exception may be the Catholic Church which is large and has a large missionary program). If some of them are using less than perfect methods to spread the word, there is really no way for the others to prevent it.
Our church funds a missionary family (to China though). They are only accountable back to our little church - not even to the branch of Christianity that I belong to. I would be amazed if they had enough funding to "buy" anybodies conversion :roll: .

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
JASON : You are the most difficult person to reason out with because you REFUSE to see the other persons point

Failure to agree with you does not mean I am not able to see your side of things. While I may understand your reaction and what motivates it, that does not mean that I will accept that it is correct.

MY OFFER AS PROOF WHICH YOU SO OFTEN HAVE REQUESTED : I can sponsor a trip for you to India ... Probably will end up visiting the county again and again.

This has nothing to do with whether or not India is a nice place to visit. Some of your countrymen came here espousing extremist viewpoints and supporting the actions of extremists (one even joked about the horrible murder of a man and his two young sons). Others such as yourself, while not coming out and explicitly saying that they are supporting these extremists, instead attempt to justify the extremists' actions by crying out against supposed forced conversions that Christians are allegedly involved in.
While there is NO EVIDENCE (as even reported in a study by the Indian government) of Christians performing forceful conversions, there IS evidence of Hindus forcefully converting Christians and animists. There IS much evidence of Hindu extremist violence being perpetrated against Christians, Muslims, and other minorities. There IS evidence of the Vajpayee government taking action against NGOs, who are also trying to help the poor.
Despite that there is no evidence of this, let's assume for a minute that Christian missionaries are engaging in "forced" conversions on a large scale. There are only a few reasons this would be of any legitimate concern.
For one, you might be truly worried about the welfare of the poor. Government actions against NGOs, constant dismissal of the poor as being unable to look after their own interests as if they are but children, and the comments such as those made here that urge the missionaries to leave the country and take their aid with them (particularly disturbing since the people saying this get no benefit from the aid), show that this is not the case. So since there is no legitimate concern for the welfare of the poor, this concern is invalid.
Another reason this would be of concern is that you are worried about the demise of your own religion and see the spread of Christianity as a threat. Your religion has withstood for centuries, and a small percentage of Christians isn't going to do anything to change that. Therefore, this conern is invalid.
Yet another reason would be that you simply don't like Christianity. Since you trumpet that India is a secular society with freedom of religion, what anybody else chooses for their religion IS NO CONCERN OF YOURS. It's none of your business. A society that truly has freedom of religion does not have these petty insecurities. So if this is the problem, at least admit that the freedom to choose one's religion in your society is tenuous at best. It seems to me that in this case "secularism" would really mean just a mere tolerance for religions not held by the majority, as opposed to an actual acceptance of people's differences.
Yet another possibility is a caste based fear of the betterment of the "lower castes". Missionaries and NGOs bring education and other tangible benefits that society as a whole is unwilling or unable to provide sufficiently. They fill a void that might otherwise go unfilled. It is possible that there are those in society who fear that an educated "lower caste" threatens their position in society. So basically this concern is rooted in castism.
So please, explain to us where is the legitimate threat that comes from these missionaries and other Christians? What is the legitimate threat that comes from the Muslim minority? Explain the grave threats that could possibly justify things like the Gujarat massacres or the violence perpetrated against Christians throughout the country? I would think that there could be *NO* justification for such actions, but the stance taken by many here would seem to be that there is some valid threat these people pose.

And yeah you probably would feel Safer there than you do in this country of yours where you have 'Neighbourhoods' youre not supposed to visit after 6 (Based on your skin colour if I may add) or where you have 8 year old kids undergoing Therapy or 13 year old Mothers .
Is that CULTURE ??? Is that Civilization ??? Im sorry but for Me its not. Or is it just FREEDOM whcih you enjoy a lot of???

Personally, I'll take all that, random sniper shootings, planes falling out of the sky, anthrax laced postage, and everything else before living in a place where Muslim and Hindu extremism is just a little bit too common and there are two nations with barely stable governments who have their nuclear toys they are so proud of pointed at each other. No thanks, while I'm sure yours is fine for you, my version of civilization suits me fine. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure India is a fine place to live for the most part. Your newspaper clipping view of the US is a bit skewed though, and it seems that there are hundreds of thousands (at least) of Americans here that are formerly from India who are very happy living here.

Violence anywhere is wrong..........what happened to the NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS ???

Ok we can both agree that violence is bad, that's good. You also won't see me defending or making excuses for any ill treatment against US minorities that our country has committed any time in the past. I also don't see how pointing out faults in one country leads to a solution to a problem in another country.
[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]