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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Mapraputa Is: Shura, you did not outline your position on CommunismWhat, I should defend our comrades alone?
According to communism.org:
Communism - a classless society with no exploitation. No state machine used by one section of the population to oppress another section. No need for professional armies or police forces. No use of production for profit or exchange. Society runs in accord with the principle: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The fact that it never worked doesn't mean communism is a throw-away idea. Shura
[ February 05, 2003: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
herb slocomb, you are confusing 2 completely different things. In my previous post I quoted a definition of communism as political system, an ideal, an absolute. What you referring to as "comminism" in your posts about The USSR is, in fact, a completely different political system, which I would call "socialistic totalitarism".
Not as bad, but similar confusion is about calling US political system a "democracy", when in fact it is a democratic republic. Democracy in this case is another theoretical absolute.
Shura
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
25 million citizens of the USSR/Russia were killed as a result of communism, is that an example of, as you say, "fullfilled its mission" ???
Herb, what if I said that the only mission of the US capitalism was to exterminate the native people of America? :roll:
[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[b]Hm... so how about "prosperity" and "outperform"? Or does your "capitalism" includes only the USA and West European countries?
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
In the sharpest form these tendencies demonstrate themselves in a belief that the USA has right and some morale "advantage" to decide what kind of government will suit other countries better, and that the USA has a right to invade some countries and to replace their governments when it feels a need for it.
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
International Court of Justice
CASE CONCERNING THE MILITARY AND PARAMILITARY ACTIVITIES
IN AND AGAINST NICARAGUA (NICARAGUA v. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
The differences are this :
1. In another post I gave a list of other countries besides Russia where the number of people murdered by the communists runs into the MILLIONS.
If you want to speak about MILLIONS, communists did not start WWI, capitalists did. ...
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I do not even know where to start... Let's start from here: "terrible atrocities on non-native peoples as well" -- but the difference was they did not commit them on European continent. European people came to their land, and if I am not mistaken, nobody invited them here.
Imagine that in 1970-s communists came to the USA and started to settle on a new place, I wonder what kind of atrocities this would cause...
1. conflict wouldn't happen if capitalists did not have a habit to invade other countries and continents.
2. Frankly, this sounds like blatant justification of genocide to me.
Herb, are you serious? "one side was about 1,000 years ahead" -- where did your absolutes go? -- are moral absolutes "absolute" only when they serve your needs?
This was one of the most amazing posts I read last months.
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
But most of the native people were wiped out by disease not warefare. By the way, many native peoples still exist, they were not exterminated. Had it been an aim or goal of capitalism to exerminate them, it would have happened long ago.
1. Russian population also still exists, gulags did not exterminate it all. So does Chinese population.
By this moment I found myself in a strange position, strange enough to stop and think, what is it that makes me defend communists with their murders? Frankly, your blank statements, overgeneralizations and overestimations somehow made me think that not compassion to victims motivates you, something else...
You know that "democratic" Russia wages a war on Chechen republic for many years already? Estimated 20,000 killed, the capital city of Chechen destroyed. Can you imagine this to happen in 1970-s? Moscow bombing its own territory? I cannot. But my main point is: what would your press say if this happened in the USSR? Atrocities of communism, right? What does it say now? Atrocities of capitalism? Atrocities of democracy? You did not even mention this war! You do not care? Why not? Because it doesn't fit your schema? If this is not hypocrisy, than what is it?
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
No answer yet on how you would justify a regime change for Hitler while he roasted millions alive assuming there had been no declaration of war.
But in general, I would justify a regime change if there is ongoing murdering going on.
[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Most of the native population were nomadic hunter/gathers living in the stone age technologically speaking, without even a system of writing or a developed legal system. They lived in tribes and the boundaries of the areas they lived in and hunted in changed as they fought amongst themselves and migrated to follow game. There were many tribes, but the majority of the ones I knew about did not even have a concept of land ownership.
"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."
Originally posted by John Dunn:
...Some tribes where capable of inexplicable horrors. Many tribes aligned themselves with settlers to kill off their enemies - this led to the French and Indian Wars.
...Prior to European immigration, Indian tribes would flourish and totally fail. (We know of some SouthWestern tribes that disappeared for unknown reasons - drought? disease? genocide?)
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
So, we can put you down for regime change in Iraq?
But more importantly, getting back to your original post (finally) where you expressed annoyance at the US for proposing regime change;
I fail to see the distinguishing principle behind the situation where for you it is OK to propose regime change , and yet if the US calls for regime change it is arrogance or worse...
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Herb, are you serious? "one side was about 1,000 years ahead" -- where did your absolutes go? All man are created equal? Your words: "I believe Ayn Rand (born in USSR by the way) makes the strongest case for the existence of moral absolutes and rights. The way I remember her argument is that the right to life is the fundamental right. There is equality in the right to life, and from that right all other rights proceed, such as the right to liberty and to act, and from that to own property (since to negate this right would infringe on the other rights previously mentioned)"
-- are moral absolutes "absolute" only when they serve your needs?
This was one of the most amazing posts I read last months.
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Herb, frankly, I am tired of your rhetoric figures. The USA put Pinochet to power, were these the same absolutes at work?
...
To overthrow dictatorial regimes is practically complicated and controversial task, but it has certain moral ground. To undermine democratic regimes and to install dictators, as the USA did in Latin America, is completely different.
[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Are you trying to claim that Russia under the Tsar was a capitalist society? :roll:Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
According to my observations, "communism" doesn't emerge in "happy" countries, it is a product of a crisis. In certain sense, it's a product of problems capitalism failed to solve.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
I'm glad to see that your family prospered under communism. However, those who were imprisoned for "crimes against the state" and those put into "mental institutions" because they dared to challenge the power of the communist state are probably glad that they don't live under communism.Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
If you expect me to be excited about failing of "communism" in Russia, you will have to wait too long, I am afraid.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Are you trying to claim that Russia under the Tsar was a capitalist society? :roll:
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
And why not??? :roll:
There *was* capitalism in tsarist Russia, are you going to deny it?
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
If no other means help. I do not understand your disgust. You do not have problems with the USA attacking any country it feels safe to attack, whenever there is (or not) a slight possibility the country will choose "communistic" way of development.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I'm glad to see that your family prospered under communism. However, those who were imprisoned for "crimes against the state" and those put into "mental institutions" because they dared to challenge the power of the communist state are probably glad that they don't live under communism.
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
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