Mapping

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Alan Labout:
And I think this American way of looking at the world is what grates on the rest of the world's sensibilities.

Now that is too funny! Might I remind you that it was the Russian who started this argument, not an American.

[Mapraputa Is]

Joe: I am unable to discern that from your posts.
Read between the lines, Joe. I do not know. Why do you even care?

[Jim Yingst]

Jim, he did not call Dr. King's words "noble". He called them "the noblest words ever written". Do you see the difference?
OK. So "noblest" put you in a competetive mood? I still don't see how US sins make Dr. King less noble. If you think Joe's "noblest" is overstated and unfair to other candidates, wouldn't it be possible to cite some other candidates in a positive way rather than (apparently) attacking the US to bring down Dr. King?
Axel, your post put a smile on my face. Thanks. I guess I've done as much stick-thrashing as I want to for now; time to totter on down the street...
[ January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Joe Pluta]

Map:Jim, he did not call Dr. King's words "noble". He called them "the noblest words ever written". Do you see the difference?
I don't know how to respond to you, Map. You misquote, then yuo get worked up because of your misquote. I said:
"some of the noblest words ever written"
Do you see the difference between what I said and what you quoted? Do you understand how the words "some of" completely change the nature of the statement?
And even if you hadn't misquoted me, why would you care if I thought Dr. King's sentiments were the noblest ever written? I've never actually ranked the world's great oratories, but if I did I'd probably put this speech right up there in the top ten, along with the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address. Churchill's blood, sweat and tears speech ranks up there as well.
Joe

[Tonny Tssagovic]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Oh my God

Got ya Map, you beleive in God

challenge you to find a major world power with a better history in the last 100 years than the USA

Well, nations ages are not like humans ones, 70-100, they are more in the 400 or more.. And probably within our lives 25-35 years (if we r still alive), US would not be the most powerfull country.. Maybe China.. maybe others.. but no US

[Steven Broadbent]

China....don't make me laugh......

[Tonny Tssagovic]

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
China....don't make me laugh......

Well, maybe not, I have doubts too.. but they have the biggest growth rate, and if they continue, they will have a better economy then the US one in 25 years... Beside that they have 1.3 Billion and if they all jump at once, the world is over.. No need for a nuclear bomb

[Tonny Tssagovic]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:

The depression, according to my revelation, is simply the learnt indifference to things that do not seem to matter. The color of a car is an example of such a thing. But there is a continuum here. As soon as you realize that the color is just a frequency of light, you will also see that your work is just a means to sustain the living, and that sex is some obscure method of reproduction, and reproduction is just a mechanism to ensure that some 300 years from now, someone will fly to galaxy X456. Now, this leads to a clinical depression, -- you lose sleep (or sleep all day long), you lose your sex drive, and you lose interest in anything (because nothing seems to matter in the grand schema of things).

I told you guys, that many Atheists are not happy with their lifes, and nothing makes sense to them.. Here's a LIVE example.-- I still need to see sucha case in the beleivers side..although I really doubt

[John Smith]

AJ: Sometimes posters in those "more serious" threads in MD look like a bunch of old women and men beating each other with their walking stick.
Indeed, there has not been much fresh blood in MD, although JR seems to be growing. One can almost certainly predict how one MD veteran will respond when the other veteran ventures a controversial opinion. Just like in the state of the union address, the best part of MD is people watching.

[Mapraputa Is]

Joe: I said: "some of the noblest words ever written"
Do you see the difference between what I said and what you quoted? Do you understand how the words "some of" completely change the nature of the statement?
You are right, Joe. Peace.

[Joe Pluta]

AL: Unfortunately, world history--even of the last 100 years--is much more complex than oversimplified notions of good and bad.
First, my notions of good and bad are far from simple. You missed earlier discussions on Good and Evil, where we went quite a ways delineating the terms. If you read those threads, you'd find that intelligent, complex individuals can discuss the concepts of good and bad. And in fact, it is my assertion that those who choose to avoid those terms are the ones who oversimplify: to them, everything is a shade of gray, and this absolves them of the sometimes very difficult responsibility of committing to something. To my way of thinking, moral relativism is worse than lack of morals altogether.
Second, I still challenge you to find a country "better" than the United States in the last 100 years. If you are unable to identify and verbalize those things which you find to be good and bad, perhaps I can get you started.
Good: race relations, religious freedom, women's rights, foreign aid, democratic government, scientific research, funding for the arts, standard of living, infant mortality, population growth.
Bad: use of fossil fuels, questionable alliances, campaign reform, news reporting, television in general, corporate greed.
We're not all good, we're not all bad, but based on those categories, you're going to be hard-pressed to find a country with a better record over the last 100 years. You can make as many excuses as you'd like to not answer the question, but until you do, my statement that America is the greatest country in the world today stands.
Joe

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Alan Labout:
Does Germany still have concentration camps? Does the Soviet Union still have gulags? Or totalitarianism?

It took the deaths of 50 million people and the occupation of germany by four armies to convince the German people that they should change their ways. It took a revolution in the USSR to close down the gulags. It took the passing of a law in the Congress to change America. No country had to invade us. All it took were some good men who used the law to do what is right. That is what makes America a great nation.

[Mapraputa Is]

Tom: It took a revolution in the USSR to close down the gulags.
I am not sure what you are saying.
1. "A revolution" was started by nobody else but communists themselves.
2. "gulags" -- this word cannot be used in plural. It is an abbreviation:
G - "Glavnoe" - main
U - "Upravlenie" - department
LAG - LAGerey ... of camps
There was only one. And it was reformed/renamed probably in 1960-s!

[Mapraputa Is]

No country had to invade us. All it took were some good men who used the
law to do what is right. That is what makes America a great nation.
No country had to invade the Soviet Union either -- you forgot this detail.

[Mapraputa Is]

Second, I still challenge you to find a country "better" than the United States in the last 100 years. If you are unable to identify and verbalize those things which you find to be good and bad, perhaps I can get you started.
You are in a defensive mode, Joe, and this is my fault, since I started this thread.
'a country "better"...' - I read a book about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, and I had to cry about what these people had to go through and what they accomplished. 'a country "better" -- absolutely! Any country is "better" then mine in some respect, any country has something to teach us all.
[ January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Joe Pluta]

You are in a defensive mode, Joe,
Actually, I'm not defensive at all, Map, but thank you for the free psychoanalysis. Keep your day job...
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

No country had to invade the Soviet Union either -- you forgot this detail.
And that might matter, except for one OTHER tiny detail: the Soviet Union no longer exists.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

Tom: It took the deaths of 50 million people and the occupation of germany
Germany
by four armies to convince the German people that they should change their ways.
Are you saying that German people changed their ways only after being occupied?

[Mapraputa Is]

"four armies" -- my father was among these "four armies" drafted. He told me this story:
they went to the intersection. The driver stopped to let an old lady go. A big boss (not sure what his millitary title was) said: why do you stop? We are the winners? *They* have to stop to let us go!
I have never heard anything more disgusting in my life!

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Are you saying that German people changed their ways only after being occupied?

That's the greatest oddity I find in what a lot of americans are posting in those politic debates.
One gets the impression that they sometimes tend to think that they are the only ones to actively put order in things. Rest is just kind of clown parade.
Germans elect undescribable cruel government, which lets them kill millions of people. Then Americans enter in war, do some re-education program with germans and everything is fine.
The internal resistance against nazi-regime, those great politicians we had after the war (not like those media tony balonies, which drive us more and more crazy every day, we own now) and the good journalism.
All this doesn't count.
When I was a kid and we visited our relatives near Dortmund in the car ride I imagined that me and not my father would drive and this were a race to make the journey less boring.
Some Americans seems to follow similar escapism patterns in international politics to make more interesting news watching.
Shura once said that american flag is for american what is bottle of vodka for russians.

Though I don't like psychologize about nations, but maybe this helps them to keep country on an economically good track. Its no fun to live in a country were mayority believes that future will be worse than present. And this is - for first time since 1945 - situation I perceive in Germany.

[Michael Matola]

MI:
2. "gulags" -- this word cannot be used in plural. It is an abbreviation:
G - "Glavnoe" - main
U - "Upravlenie" - department
LAG - LAGerey ... of camps
There was only one. And it was reformed/renamed probably in 1960-s!
Just an aside to the debate at hand --
In (American) English "gulag" tends to refer to the labor camp itself and not to the organization that ran the camps. As such, the plural "gulags" can happily exist in English.
That the English word "gulag" is a borrowing from Russian, and that the Russian original is an abbreviation, and that the Russian original cannot be used in the plural is interesting, but not relevant to how the word can or cannot be used in English.
If you have any doubts that "gulag" is (also) an English word, the simple fact that Thomas Paul can write or say it and other English speakers can understand it (without having detailed knowledge of Russian language, but a familiarity with Russian history, culture, life, etc.) pretty much makes it an English word in my (and many others') book.
[ January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Matola ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Are you saying that German people changed their ways only after being occupied?

Yes. I am not aware that the German people aattempted to overthrow Hitler and shut down the concentration camps prior to the country was conquered. There was little if no resistance against Hitler. Schindler's List is amazing because Schindler was an extreme exception in Germany.
If you have any evidence to support any other position I would be faascinated to read it.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I have never heard anything more disgusting in my life!

Really? That little old lady probably had a son who went off to kill Soviets. She probably seig heiled whenever Hitler was around. She probably spit on Jews as they were pulled out of their apartments and sent to death camps.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
The internal resistance against nazi-regime...

Interestingly enough, there was virtually none within Germany itself. The resistance movement within the occupied nations was always a problem for the Nazis but the German people stayed loyal to Hitler right up to the moment he put the bullet in his head.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
2. "gulags" -- this word cannot be used in plural. It is an abbreviation:

In Russian perhaps, but in English the word is not an abbreviation but rather means "labor camp". It is often used in plural in English writing. If you don't believe me then here is the dictionary definition:

A forced labor camp or prison, especially for political dissidents.
A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.

[John Dunn]

MI: (couple of Russian soldiers in post-WWII Germany)
...they went to the intersection. The driver stopped to let an old lady go. A big boss (not sure what his millitary title was) said: why do you stop? We are the winners? *They* have to stop to let us go!
I have never heard anything more disgusting in my life!
Another story:
young G.I. in Afganistan driving with a couple of "pillow-cased" ex-Taliban dudes, pulls up to an intersection and stops to let a women go across the street. The ex-Taliban dude calls out from under his pillow-case hood, "What are you doing?? You're the winners, why don't you run her down??
Young G.I. replies, "Yo, cuz we're the winners..."
Wow, this is simply, music to my ears!!!
[ January 25, 2004: Message edited by: John Dunn ]

[Mapraputa Is]

MM: In (American) English "gulag" tends to refer to the labor camp itself and not to the organization that ran the camps. As such, the plural "gulags" can happily exist in English.
Ok. Just sounds weird to me.

[Mapraputa Is]

Tom: Really? That little old lady probably had a son who went off to kill Soviets. She probably seig heiled whenever Hitler was around. She probably spit on Jews as they were pulled out of their apartments and sent to death camps.
Or maybe not. But let's run her over anyway. Why the indignation, I do not understand. If your mother lived in Germany in 1930-s, she would be fond of Hitler. Or maybe you think that Americans are made out of a different material?
[ January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Mapraputa Is]

My co-worker's father told me this story. It was in 1945, when everything was already clear and nobody wanted to die. He saw a German soldier and he invited him to capitulate, I forgot how exactly. But when the guy tried, he was killed. The teller still feels guilty - 50 years later!
I got the text out of him, here: http://www.mycgiserver.com/~mapraputa/memoirs.htm
[ January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Joe Pluta]

If your mother lived in Germany in 1930-s, she would be fond of Hitler. Or maybe you think that Americans are made out of a different material?
Yes. We are made of "sterner stuff". There were some Germans who were members of the resistance, and I'd like to believe I would be part of that resistance. Many of my ancestral countrymen were.
One interesting thing about true democracy: it doesn't allow someone to get that kind of power. If they try, they will have to fight the other branches of the government, and eventually the American people themselves. That's why, in over 200 years, we have yet to have a dictator. The democratic system works.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

Interestingly enough, there was virtually none within Germany itself.
There: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375756973/002-7544030-220480

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
You are looking for a black cat in a dark room, Map, and the cat is not there. I could as well say that your intitial two posts were an insult to the integrity of MD and the demonstration of contempt to this establishment, and that statement would be as meaningful as your accusation that I insulted you. The founding fathers never said that when someone was publicly speaking to herself, no one should comment. All they said was that the government shall not interfere.

If we had a Posting Hall of Fame, I'd nominate this. It's one of the few things in MD that has a rare power of conviction to it. But mostly I like the reminder that freedom applies to that which the government might otherwise regulate. We're quite free to try and stifle each other, which is at least half of what freedom of speech is: the right to challenge the speech of others.
[ January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Ernest Friedman-Hill]

Can I now drag out Godwin's law and get this pissing contest declared over? Or are we going to have an extended debate about the correct invocation of Godwin's law?

[Michael Ernest]

They might just be catching their breath...

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Interestingly enough, there was virtually none within Germany itself.
There: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375756973/002-7544030-220480

I am not sure what your point is. The author was not part of any resistance against Germany.
And yes, I do belive that Americans are made of sterner stuff. My mother would never have been pro-Nazi even if he she lived in Germany. Do you think your mother would have spat on Jews as they were carted off to the death camps?

[Joe Pluta]

Can I now drag out Godwin's law and get this pissing contest declared over? Or are we going to have an extended debate about the correct invocation of Godwin's law?
Nope. This is not Usenet, it's JavaRanch. It's really up to Paul what applies and what doesn't. Personally, though, I'd say that Godwin's law shouldn't apply here in MD unless we also add America-bashing and Bush-bashing riders.
I think the anti-America and anti-Bush stuff here is just as annoying as any mention of Hitler.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

And yes, I do belive that Americans are made of sterner stuff. My mother would never have been pro-Nazi even if he she lived in Germany. Do you think your mother would have spat on Jews as they were carted off to the death camps?
I allow for this possibility. Or whose mother do you think would do that?

[Mapraputa Is]

ME: They might just be catching their breath...
Then don't stay on the road!

[Michael Ernest]

Doin' what I can, sugar. FWIW, this last week I had no internet access during th day and a work backlog to cover at night. No time to play.

[Alan Labout]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
If your mother lived in Germany in 1930-s, she would be fond of Hitler. Or maybe you think that Americans are made out of a different material?
Yes. We are made of "sterner stuff". There were some Germans who were members of the resistance, and I'd like to believe I would be part of that resistance. Many of my ancestral countrymen were.
Joe

Judging from your insistent allegiance to the American way, I doubt that you would be the type to go against any sort of political grain. You seem to be more of a conformist/apologist. Of course it's always easier to find fault with others' country than with your own, so it only makes sense that you would want to be part of a resistance against somebody else's government. This requires neither courage nor imagination. In fact, it's not even "resistance" at all, but simple nationalism. The question is whether you have ever challenged your own government? Or do you reserve your opposition and indignation for the governments of other countries?