[very heavy] Virtues

[Joe Pluta]

Joe: a nice lady very civilly opined that India had a parasitic economy
You type this with a serious face, don't you, Joe?
I think the phrase you are looking for is "a straight face", and the answer is "absolutely". Why wouldn't I? Her statement might not have been complimentary and her word choice might have been unfortunate, but the statement was simply expressing an opinion without any rancor - and was far more civil than the responses she received.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Joe: You can say a lot of things, but one thing you can't say that any country gets as much blatant hatred as America on JavaRanch.
Paul: Thats an opinion not a fact.
Are you saying that India gets as much bashing as America? That's simply not true.
And just to clarify, somebody complaining about outsourcing or visas is not bashing India. There's a huge difference between saying "unscrupulous companies are abusing H-1B visas to displace American workers" and saying "America was complicit in the Holocaust".
Or perhaps the difference is unclear. I've noticed that. I've noticed that if something is said that is has even the slightest tinge of not being entirely complimentary of all things Indian, then it immediately gets slotted by some people into "India bashing". The statements against visas were never anti-India, yet some people insisted on taking it that way.
In any event, my statement that more America bashing goes on than India bashing stands. Find something truly anti-Indian in the last 30 days, and perhaps you'll make your point.
Joe

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Joe: You can say a lot of things, but one thing you can't say that any country gets as much blatant hatred as America on JavaRanch.

We have had instances of India-bashing. "as much", maybe not. But it seems to me that much of the "America-bashing" comes from Americans as from other nationalities.

[Mapraputa Is]

Her statement might not have been complimentary and her word choice might have been unfortunate, but the statement was simply expressing an opinion without any rancor - and was far more civil than the responses she received.
So when Stara Szkapa says that America is "just bunch of people living on speculation and producing nothing" it is disgusting, but when somebody posts the same crap about India, it is "a very civil opinion" and you feel it's Ok to repeat this crap?
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
So when Stara Szkapa says that America is "just bunch of people living on speculation and producing nothing" it is disgusting

I thought everyone pretty much (rigthfully) ignored Stara Szkapa's comment?

[Joe Pluta]

Map, have you read the definition of "parasitic"? Basically, it means something that cannot survive without its host. Surely you see the difference between that and "just bunch of people living on speculation and producing nothing".
And while you might not like her choice of words and disagree with her opinion, the analogy is valid and subject to discussion. Yes, I would have preferred a word with a less negative connotation, such as "dependent". But in no way was her comment anything like the post that triggered this discussion, or even Stara's post (which I simply found annoying and baseless, but not hateful).
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Are you saying that India gets as much bashing as America? That's simply not true.

OK! Look, I am not going to aruge over who is being bashed more. Simply put bashing is wrong, even a little of it. But just because I feel it is wrong doesnt mean I would prevent someone from doing so in the first place. However, if someone bashes something and I feel that it was incorrect I will stand up and ensure the person explains their position before getting a clean chit from me (who cares about that anyway ). What I will not do is cry foul. The reason why I entered this thread was because a few members were complaining about bias against America. I just didnt see so. If the American community is not as vociferous as , for example, the Indian community is it a fault of the moderators?? I dont think so.

And just to clarify, somebody complaining about outsourcing or visas is not bashing India. There's a huge difference between saying "unscrupulous companies are abusing H-1B visas to displace American workers" and saying "America was complicit in the Holocaust".
Or perhaps the difference is unclear. I've noticed that. I've noticed that if something is said that is has even the slightest tinge of not being entirely complimentary of all things Indian, then it immediately gets slotted by some people into "India bashing". The statements against visas were never anti-India, yet some people insisted on taking it that way.

Some comments made by some people were highly offensive, even highly anti-immigrant in some instances and those threads were never removed or closed or whatever. But that is my opinion.. once again you dont see me complaining about a bias in the moderator community against immigrants. This is a community and if I have a disagreement with some members of the community I deal with it, not complain about it.

[Mapraputa Is]

Map, have you read the definition of "parasitic"?
All Soviet kids had to study biology for 6 years, there was no choice.
Basically, it means something that cannot survive without its host.
Are you saying that "something" cannot survive without the US? Joe, I think you really need to visit this "something", maybe it will help you to get rid of all these weird ideas you have!
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Joe Pluta]

But it seems to me that much of the "America-bashing" comes from Americans as from other nationalities.
I know. That's even sadder.
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Are you saying that India gets as much bashing as America? That's simply not true.

Comparing India with greatest power, let it be for bashing, I am on Seventh Heaven
I wish India get more bashing
Now serious, I wanted to say this but somehow did not say. But now let me say. You should be happy that America gets more bashing.
The more you are famous (note: I did not say infamous), the more bashing you get.
The more you are popular for good deeds, the more opponents you will have.
Only good people have enemies.
what do you think, why Lincoln/Gandhi ji/Keneddy were killed ??

[John Smith]

Map: So when Stara Szkapa says that America is "just bunch of people living on speculation and producing nothing" it is disgusting, but when somebody posts the same crap about India, it is "a very civil opinion" and you feel it's Ok to repeat this crap? <...> Joe, I think you really need to visit this "something", maybe it will help you to get rid of all these weird ideas you have!
You seem much refreshed, Map. I think I'll take a vacation, too, to boost my pro-americanism. Did you go some place abroad?
[ February 09, 2004: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Joe Pluta]

Map: Are you saying that "something" cannot survive without the US?
Map, slow down. You're doing the misquoting thing again. I never said India was a parasitic economy, I simply defended Natalie's right to state that as her opinion, and that the usage of the term was not derogatory, even if it was incorrect. It wasn't a NICE word, and as I said I would have preferred another word like "dependent", but in either case, it's not my opinion.
Please try not to start new arguments with me about things I didn't say. You have enough arguments with what I actually DO say .
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Ravish: Only good people have enemies.
Oh, the joy of things unlooked for!
Ravish, thank you, that statement made me laugh out loud. I'm sure you realize you're the last person I expected to say something like this, and I truly appreciate it. Thanks for the thought.
And on that note, y'all can have this conversation to yourselves. I've said my piece, and I ain't fixin' to argue no more. I learn a little more about this place called JavaRanch all the time, and today was no exception.
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
But it seems to me that much of the "America-bashing" comes from Americans as from other nationalities.
I know. That's even sadder.

Its not about to be sad but I think I will call it "positive criticism".

[R K Singh]

AW Joe are you becoming vegetarian or not ??

[Mapraputa Is]

Joe: Map, slow down. You're doing the misquoting thing again. I never said India was a parasitic economy
I didn't say you said it. I asked a question.

Landledy's friend... Olga Ivanovna?
Shhhh!!! She's not deaf, you know!
Who's not deaf?
Olga Ivanovna.
I didn't say she was deaf...!
I didn't say you said she was deaf.
Vadim, I say, What was your question?

I would have preferred another word like "dependent"
Oh. This is so much better.
Please try not to start new arguments with me about things I didn't say. You have enough arguments with what I actually DO say.
We are going into a confrontation mode and I do not like it.
Joe, I am reading Studs Terkels' "My American Century" book. As I understand, it is a compilation of his other books, but I wanted it this way. In fact, I was already recommended this author, by I am curious what your opinion is. Do you think it's a good book? Instead of castigating me for my alleged anti-Americanism, why don’t you tell me what your favorite pro-American books are?
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"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Joe Pluta]

Map, you're the one making it a confrontation: "Oh, this is so much better." Your comments drip with sarcasm, and you're trying to put words in my mouth.
In any event, I refuse to rise to the bait - I've dropped this thread. Seeya!
Joe
P.S. Good pro-America books? Any history book will do. Or any science book. Medical journals. Science fiction collections. The history of the automobile, or flight, or television, or the computer. Books on government. Of course, my favorite piece of pro-American literature is a short one, just a few thousand words long. It starts out, "We the People...". Good stuff .
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

Map, you're the one making it a confrontation: "Oh, this is so much better." Your comments drip with sarcasm, and you're trying to put words in my mouth.
It made you quit trashing India, so it's good, I guess.
I didn't want to make a confrontation, Joe, sorry if I unintentialy did.
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
P.S. Good pro-America books? Any history book will do. Or any science book. Medical journals. Science fiction collections. The history of the automobile, or flight, or television, or the computer. Good stuff .

And again I am laughing.
[ February 09, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Joe Pluta]

Map, did you really think I was trashing India, or are you just kidding? It's hard to tell sometimes.
Joe

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
In fact, I was already recommended this author, by I am curious what your opinion is. Do you think it's a good book? Instead of castigating me for my alleged anti-Americanism, why don’t you tell me what your favorite pro-American books are?

Okay, I know I'm not Joe, but this got me thinking. I had never thought about any particular literature as "pro-American", but I'm sure there must be several satisfactory answers to your inquiry.
I haven't read it, but this one came to mind. I have heard nothing but good things about it.

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

It made you quit trashing India, so it's good, I guess.

From all the posts that I've read that were written by Joe P, I never got the impression that he ever trashed India. Or that he has any illwill or ill feeling towards India or Indians (if he does, then he hides them well :cool . I take it, from your smiley, that this was a flippant remark in a jocular manner.

[Mapraputa Is]

Joe: Map, did you really think I was trashing India, or are you just kidding?
I am not kidding. You re-posted that "India had a parasitic economy" -- you think this is funny? This is something to kid about?
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Joe Pluta]

Joe: Map, did you really think I was trashing India, or are you just kidding?
Map: I am not kidding. You re-posted that "India had a parasitic economy" -- you think this is funny? This is something to kid about?
Map, is this another language barrier thing? If you read the post again, you will see that I never said India had a parasitic economy. Ever. I simply defended Natalie's saying so. Her analogy was valid, even if you don't agere with her conclusion. I would have rather she use a different term that wasn't quite so negative, but it was done without rancor.
However, you do realize that in the entire paragraph above, I, Joe Pluta, have never once said that India is a parasitic economy, don't you? If you do not understand this, please point out the exact sentence where you think I said it, and we can go over the grammar. Maybe this exercise will help avoid similar confusion in the future.
Joe

[michael bradly]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
Bush was not AWOL that has been discredited.
...
I could also post some links on the earth is flat. But that would not make the earth flat. Some people will believe whatever they want anyway.

Definately interesting reading. It only took him nearly four years to recant. And even in recanting he did it in such circular fashion it's hard to deduce which account he is recanting, his original statements or the statement made earlier in the day.

"I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base."
Still, the same day the retired general had withdrawn the allegation...

HobbsOnline had a similarly interesting statement. "There are three basic allegations the anti-Bushies make, and and even if any are true, they do not prove the others."
if (a == true && b == true && c == true){
System.out.println("Not true");
}

"As to the former, I'll just respond that if GWB used family connections to get into the Guard, he still joined a unit elements of which were involved in combat in Vietnam at the time he enlisted." Hobbsonline

According to this document, http://www.gregpalast.com/ulf/documents/draftdodgeblanked.jpg he did use family connections. So this would indicate the first accusation to be true.
More can be read in the article: http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=234&row=3

"The most logical explanation as that GWB put in his hours on the base, and no one in Alabama knew he was the son of a future president as well as a future president and no one took special note of him." HobbsOnline

Here is a document of Bush asking for the transfer to Alabama: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc7.gif
Here is a document of the acceptance. Of note is the reference of the uncertainty of that unit being around for the next year: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc6.gif
Here is a document of the rejection of that acceptance:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif

"This transfer refusal left Bush still obligated to attend drills with his regular unit, the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron stationed at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston. However, Bush had already left Texas two weeks earlier and was now working on Winton Blount's campaign staff in Alabama."
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

So if he was required to continue to fulfill his duties with the 111th, his report indicated he was not there.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc9.gif
Additionally, nothing was noted as observed in his evaluation report:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif
So I would deduce from this that the second and third accusation of the "anti-Bushies" appears to be true as well.
"Nor do you get to be a good pilot pushing paper." HobbsOnline
The unit he applied to was described as such.

"Lieutenant Colonel Bricken recently explained to the Boston Globe, ''We met just one weeknight a month. We were only a postal unit. We had no airplanes. We had no pilots. We had no nothing.''" http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

"You don't get to be a good pilot by not showing up. Bush showed up.... he was discharged early with, remember, his service time requirement completed.... His honorable discharge is the evidentiary coup de grace." HobbsOnline

An honorable discharge does not indicate a flawless record," says Grant Lattin, a military law attorney in Washington and a retired Marine Corps lieutenant colonel who served as a judge advocate, or JAG officer. "Somebody could have missed a year's worth of Guard drills and still end up with an honorable discharge." http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/020904A.shtml

As to his discharge. I suspect that is up to debate as well. His service record vs. his biography indicate seperate dates.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif
And, if the following is true, that the records are maintained, it should be simple enough to find out if he had been actively flying during the period in question.

"few if any military units are held as accountable for their crews' moment to moment whereabouts as are reconnaissance squadrons. It's what they do. If during my Air Force tenure, I'd lost track of a reconnaissance aircraft or its pilot for a mere few seconds, I'd sure as hell remember it, as would every other person on my watch.... Their movements are traced and recorded precisely, and the records are kept forever.... That a recon squadron would be unable to account for the whereabouts of one of its pilots, between Texas and Alabama no less, and for twelve months is absurd in the lunatic extreme"
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_4981.shtml

Interesting stuff all. Suffice it to say I've found this an interesting thread for the most part. I can't say I've done so much document searching in quite a while. I've formed my opinion, obviously The past tends to be revisionist and the present tends to be spun.

"His records have clearly been cleaned up," says author James Moore, whose upcoming book, "Bush's War for Re-election," will examine the issue of Bush's military service in great detail. Moore says as far back as 1994, when Bush first ran for governor of Texas, his political aides "began contacting commanders and roommates and people who would spin and cover up his Guard record. And when my book comes out, people will be on the record testifying to that fact: witnesses who helped clean up Bush's military file."

As much as I'd love to debate a flat earth, I'd have a hard time making a pro arguement for it
Michael

[Mapraputa Is]

Jason: Okay, I know I'm not Joe, but this got me thinking. I had never thought about any particular literature as "pro-American", but I'm sure there must be several satisfactory answers to your inquiry.
Ernest once called "1984" one of the best novels of the XX century, or something like this. I think, it was in "Moderators Only". I do not like the book at all, but it made me think: what is a good book about communism? You see, most famous books are written by people who hate communism. That's Ok, but what kind of wisdom can you get from authors who hate their subject? Would you read a book on biology if an author made at clear he hates biology?
Thanks for your recommendation, I will read it.
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[John Smith]

I suggest you take the Fifth, Joe. Map is on a roll.

[Joe Pluta]

I suggest you take the Fifth, Joe. Map is on a roll.
Maybe from where you're sitting. From my viewpoint, she's just confused.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

Whatever's the case, she is not dangerous.
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Mapraputa Is]

Joe: Map, is this another language barrier thing? If you read the post again, you will see that I never said India had a parasitic economy.
Joe, I never said you did. You just repeated a crappy post and I do not understand why you did it. But it's getting ridiculous, let's drop it.
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Joe Pluta]

Joe: Map, is this another language barrier thing? If you read the post again, you will see that I never said India had a parasitic economy.
Map: Joe, I never said you did. You just repeated a crappy post and I do not understand why you did it. But it's getting ridiculous, let's drop it.
No, Map, I am sick and tired of you jumping on my case for things I didn't do. It's getting to be a reoccuring theme, and I want it to stop.

A) You said I was trashing India. I never did.
So, first off you can apologize for saying I trashed India.

B) You said Natalie's post was crappy, just because she described India's economy as "parasitic".
Now you can explain why Natalie's simple statement is crappy.
Natalie said that India's economy would not survive without the US. THAT'S ALL SHE SAID. "Parasitic" is not a nice word, but if you were objective you would admit that she was just stating an opinion. "Dependent" would have been a better word, but I'd hope the people at MD were adult enough to understand the context.
If Natalie realized that sensibilities were so delicate here she might have selected a less traumatic word, but given the harsh rhetoric regularly bandied about in MD, I don't think she should have been expected to know that people would be so easily offended by a word choice. :roll:
And finally, if you don't think India's economy is dependent on America, I suggest you read the financial statements of India's top companies. Even the Indians here will tell you that right now a large portion of India's revenue comes from American firms and American-based multi-nationals. This is hardly a point of debate.
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Natalie said that India's economy would not survive without the US. THAT'S ALL SHE SAID. "Parasitic" is not a nice word, but if you were objective you would admit that she was just stating an opinion. "Dependent" would have been a better word, but I'd hope the people at MD were adult enough to understand the context.

Main Entry: par�a�site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return

I find that to be very offensive, maybe I am not objective enough then???
I dont see how anyone calling any country's economy to be parasitic can do so "civilly". And in my view that lady is not "nice". So where is the apology due to me?? If the word parasite was used there was an intention behind it.. perhaps I'm just different or something but if I were to describe, say China's economy.. I would never think of the word "parasite". It has a very high negative connotation associated with it.

[Joe Pluta]

I find that to be very offensive, maybe I am not objective enough then???

No, you're not.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

If the word parasite was used there was an intention behind it
But not a derogatory one. Natalie simply meant that the Indian economy depends on the US economy and takes more than it gives. Why is that an uncivil thing to say? It's uncomplimentary, but not uncivil. That's what confuses me - people here can rant and rave about President Bush or Americans in general, but say one uncomplimentary thing about India, and let the protests begin!
And Paul, it's especially difficult to understand from you, because you've spent so much time saying you don't care! For a guy who doesn't care, you sure argue a lot.
Joe

[Jim Yingst]

This whole thread gives me a headache. I'm tempted to respond to some points, but I think I'd probably be busy all week. But to take one very straightforward point:
[Joe]: I never said India had a parasitic economy.
[Map]: Joe, I never said you did.
You don't suppose he was referring to, oh, this maybe?
[Map]: You re-posted that "India had a parasitic economy"
Sure seemed like you said it.

[Mapraputa Is]

I said what? I said that Joe "RE-POST-ED" that "India... bla-bla-bla". In other words, he repeated somebody's post. What is inaccurate in my statement?
Let's have Joe apologize and forget the whole matter, ah? It's getting silly.
--------------------
"I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat" -- Ravish.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I find that to be very offensive, maybe I am not objective enough then???

No, you're not.
Joe

The same could be said about people who feel there is too much anti-whatever on this forum.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
And Paul, it's especially difficult to understand from you, because you've spent so much time saying you don't care! For a guy who doesn't care, you sure argue a lot.

huh!
What specifically is being referred to here? Is it my previous statements that "I dont complain"??? Yes and that still holds true.. where did you see me complain? Me saying that "Hey! You said X has a parasitic economy, you'd better explain that to me or I'll think you made a hollow statement" is not the same as me saying "I find a bias against X because people refuse to take action against anyone who says anything against X".

[Joe Pluta]

The same could be said about people who feel there is too much anti-whatever on this forum.
Paul, if you can equate someone saying that India's economy is dependent upon America with someone saying that America was complicit in the Holocaust, then our value systems are so completely different that any further conversation between us on ethics and morals is impossible.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Let's have Joe apologize and forget the whole matter, ah? It's getting silly.
Apologize for what? For not allowing myself to be abused?
Joe