How many people would you kill? We know you would kill one, how about 2? 10? 100? 1000? What if he told you that pushing the button would cause an earthquake in some foreign country and would kill 10,000 people? Would you still push the button?Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I probably would pusht the button. I might hate myself for it, but I couldn't conceive of letting my brother die.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I guess that's one way to ignore someone's argument
It's not just me, Tom. I don't have a single friend or associate who listens to what Michael Moore says.
Joe
Morgan
SCJP (1.4), SCJD (1.4), SCWCD (1.3), SCBCD (1.3)
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b]
I don't know, Tom. Would you kill Hitler's mother?
Joe
Morgan
SCJP (1.4), SCJD (1.4), SCWCD (1.3), SCBCD (1.3)
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
That's right, I forgot. My mistake. It was the Dutch military that deterred the Soviets from rolling across Western Europe.
Morgan
SCJP (1.4), SCJD (1.4), SCWCD (1.3), SCBCD (1.3)
Did you actually read the speech? We are "de-escalting" but we are sending more troops. Typically, this is the way the war was run from beginning to end. Put more troops where they could be killed while not letting them actually fight. We misunderstood this war right from the start.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Actually in 1968, LBJ was still trying to hold onto the myth that we could win the war. Nixon was talking about getting out but LBJ wouldn't let Humphrey talk about it until September. Probably cost Humprey the election.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
No. Murder is murder and rationalizing killing an innocent for the greater good is immoral. Suppose you found out that your son would grow up to be a serial killer. Would you smother him in his bed tonight?Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I don't know, Tom. Would you kill Hitler's mother?
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Actually He does every single day. It's just that the choices aren't quite as obvious as pushing that button.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The good news is that God doesn't make us make those kinds of decisions.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Actually it does. As Jason pointed out, there is a 2.5% chance that a draftee would die if sent to Vietnam (Are you sure Jason? That seems awfully high.) So you are deciding that you want someone else to take that risk. I guess it's easy to make that decision when the person who ends up taking the risk is a stranger.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I'd rather not discuss it any more, as it no longer has much to do with whether you'd save your own brother by getting him a deferment.
You can ignore the main point if you want. The Guard was considered a cushy job during Vietnam and only people with influence could get those jobs. Bush used his influence to stay out of Vietnam.Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Of course we're conveniently ignoring that the only way to get certain jobs in the military is through volunteering.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
If you are willing to kill innocents for the greater good than you are on a long, slippery slope that leads right back to Hitler.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
You're willing to let millions of people die to satisfy your own personal ethics.
It still does not change the point that every day you are faced with exactly the type of moral dilemmas that we are talking about. Every day you must decide whether to push that button or not, it's just that the dilemma isn't as obvious as just pushing a button.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
If it were up my God, we'd never have an ethical dilemma, we'd simply live happy lives.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If you are willing to kill innocents for the greater good than you are on a long, slippery slope that leads right back to Hitler.
Morgan
SCJP (1.4), SCJD (1.4), SCWCD (1.3), SCBCD (1.3)
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I have some statistics for you:
Of the 26.8 million young men who reached draft age between 1964 and 1973, 16 million (60 percent) did not serve in the military. Of those who avoided service, 15.4 million received legal exemptions or deferments, and 570,000 evaded the draft illegally.
So removing those with deferrments (which Bush no longer had) and those who evaded the draft illegaly, that meant that of the 26.8 million men who reached draft age and did not get a deferrment less than 1 million did not get drafted.
Bush's odds of being drafted in 1968 were as close to 100% as you could get.
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
If you insist on your "yes, I would smash that button down" answer, you more likely would be busy killing Jews, or whoever you were told to kill.
"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Thanks for being so honest, Joe, I for one appreciate it. This explains a lot. I struggled to understand why American public doesn't care a damn when her President starts a war to protect America from a danger that soon turns out to be non-existent. As long as "we" maybe, just maybe will be safer, it's Ok. As for Iraq, we will pray to God that it will maybe it will be Ok also.
"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."
Jason, I think you missed the point. The question was, what was Bush's chances of being drafted in 1968. Since he no longer had a deferrment, his chances were 100%. In 1968, the only people not being drafted were those with a deferrment. The lottery did not start until 1969.Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Your math is incorrect. You state that 16 million men of draft age did not serve in the military, and then you lump their numbers in with those who were deferred from service.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
You can only save one person. Your direct actions are not responsible for any deaths. Therefore ethically you can give the antidote to your child. But what if the antidote was already in the hands of the stranger and you had a gun. Would you shoot him to get the antidote? That would be unethical. that would be murder.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Would you sacrifice your child to save a stranger? Two people have a deadly poison, one your baby, one a stranger. You have one dose of antidote, and it can only save one person.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Actually it has everything to do with it. The reasoning behind the invasion of Iraq was that we saw Iraq as a threat to us. Destroy Iraq or they will destroy us. The linkage is clear to me.Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
And Map, your business about equating it with geopolitics is disingenuous at best. Thomas stuck me in the position of "either do this or your baby dies". That's got nothing to do with the war in Iraq, except in your mind.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
I think the problem is that they are both using their Vietnam experience as a political tool. It's funny that Bush can admit that he was an alcoholic party boy but he can't admit that he used the ANG to stay out of Vietnam.Originally posted by John Dunn:
I wonder if John Kerry, is really angry at Bush or is HE using Viet Nam as a political tool? Don't you think John Kerry has a few really good friends that evaded the draft?? I'd think that he's got to...
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
It would give a normal human mental abilities to rival mine. To think it is just a tiny ad:
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