• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Paul Clapham
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Knute Snortum
Sheriffs:
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Tim Cooke
  • Junilu Lacar
Saloon Keepers:
  • Ron McLeod
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Moores
  • Tim Holloway
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Joe Ess
  • salvin francis
  • fred rosenberger

Hindus involved in Spain terrorism??

 
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
As a matter of fact, yes, I do think that we are a lot more cleaner a purer. By saying, "And Hindus did and do apply physical force including killing (terrorism, basically) against Christians in the name of religion." you are painting a totally wrong picture by avoiding the real cause.


Really? What about the killing of lower caste people that goes on even today? What about the killing of a dalit outside a temple in gujarat simply because he was a dalit and he dared to enter the temple premises?
So applying your logic.. if Christians around the world "come to their senses" and decide to kill all non-christian immigrants in Europe and North America that would be justified?? :roll:
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 204
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I'm actually surprised that people want to keep the acts to the individuals once they realize that someone from their religion is involved. I am NOT saying that all Hindus are terrorists but to me it just seems so...
I have always stated that I believe Islam is not conducive to democracy and when I see / read about a fellow Hindu associated with such an act I feel ashamed but not ashamed enough to not apologize on behalf of my religion / people.
Didnt many of us complain why muslims are not forthcoming / did not apologize after the 9/11 attacks.. its so ironic to see many of us do the same when our community is involved!!! :sigh: :roll:
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]


:roll: you got it all mixed up.
We blamed muslims, Islam etc. and not the individuals because the terrorist organizations funded by Islam followers mentioned that it was right thing to do in their religion (ofcourse...later other muslims cleared this out)...isn't that what "Jihad" is/was all about?
But in the case of the two Indian Hindu's its only the individuals to blame as in Hinduism it is never told that one must spend his life trying to get people from other faith into becoming a Hindu etc (even those 2 would gladly admit it). Also not many Hindu's really care who follows which religion as long as they are left alone (ofcourse exceptions are always there). Have you ever heard of a Hindu missionary preaching other faith followers to leave their faith and join hinduism?...Have you heard of Hindu missionaries being killed because they were at the wrong place (country) at the wrong time?
Anyways..glad to know that you still are an Indian citizen.
For those who people who keep trying to convert others to their religion...IMHO....if one is serious about religion...then why is it so tough to understand that it comes with birth....you can't jump around from one religion to another...its as foolish as trying to change the color of your skin (MJ is still a black).
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
So Teri, what exactly are you trying to say? Are you saying that Christians cannot accuse militant muslims of terrorism because they may have employed similar tactics in the past? Or are you saying that no one can condemn the terrorists for their deeds because in the eyes of the terrorist, innocents are not exactly innocents?
Could you please clarify.. I am getting confused with the mixed signals you are sending out.
For the record, I am a Hindu and I do not agree with Teri's viewpoints. To take beef with the acts of some Christians ages ago is ridiculous. And Teri, you perhaps need to brush up on your history. Crusades were not carried out to convert people they were carried out to reclaim stolen land from the muslims. And the point to remember here is that every crusade was a failure except for one.


Paul, let me first comment on your comments that you made in the end.
1. I already agreed that I don't know the real meaning of Crusades. I also clarified what I really meant with that in my next post. May be it is not a "crusade" technically.
2. What I pointed out did not happen "ages ago". I happened less than 100 years ago in India and still happens in parts of Africa. Again, I don't know what you want to call it. Please do give a name so that we can refer to it by that name. Again, it did not happen ages ago. It is happening right now in the exact same for in Africa and in a different form in India.
Now, let me answer your questions.
1. I hate it when people justify their logic and actions on the basis of moral superirority. While I myself subscribe to many of the belief of that set of morals, I don't like to judge somebody else by those standards. More so when the accuser has done the exact same thing in the past. It stinks of hypocricy really.
2. So Christians can definitely accuse muslims of terrorism but not no a moral ground.
3. "Or are you saying that no one can condemn the terrorists for their deeds because in the eyes of the terrorist, innocents are not exactly innocents?"
No, anybody can condemn their deeds alright. It just that it will never solve the real problem. A thief will never quit theft untill he/she is convinced that theft is morally wrong. Punishment will only contain his/her actions for a certain amount of time.
But then how can one thief convince the other thief that theft is morally wrong
 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
As a matter of fact, yes, I do think that we are a lot more cleaner a purer.


You would be mistaken then I'm afraid.

Person X comes to my house, beats me up, converts me. And now when I regain my senses and resist the atrocities, I am the bad guy. Wow. Call me whatever, I don't subscribe to your theory.


Yeah, those Christian missionaries can sure be tough customers. And since conversion is a matter of the heart and soul, there is no such thing as being forcefully converted. But given your scenario above, here are a couple of other scenarios for you.
- Person X is a foreign missionary sleeping in his vehicle with his two young sons. You (not you personally, just being illustrative) don't like the fact that he is doing missionary work so you burn them all alive.
- Unknown persons kill Hindu VHP activists in an attack on a train, you and a mob of fellow peace loving Hindus decide to avenge their death by burning alive 27 innocent Muslims living in a shanty town, including children.
Yeah, pure as new fallen snow.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by San Tiruvan:
For those who people who keep trying to convert others to their religion...IMHO....if one is serious about religion...then why is it so tough to understand that it comes with birth....you can't jump around from one religion to another...its as foolish as trying to change the color of your skin (MJ is still a black).


That is completely incorrect, and that attitude is the root of the problem. Children cannot make conscious decisions regarding their spirituality. They may be brought up in a religion, however when they are old enough they are able to question their spirituality and their belief in the religion they have been raised in. If they decide that another religion appeals to their inner spirituality in some way that their current one doesn't, or if they have some issues regarding the religion they were brought up in that they cannot reconcile, then it is the right of the individual to seek a religion (or no religion) that best suits their spiritual needs.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Yeah, those Christian missionaries can sure be tough customers. And since conversion is a matter of the heart and soul, there is no such thing as being forcefully converted.


I am afraid, you are mistaken. Come to India, I will show you what exactly is going on in the name of "heart and soul" conversion.
Jason, everytime I corner you, you change the topic or throw in new things in the discussion. I pointed to you the difference between what Christians and Muslims did (went all over the world, beat people up and converted them) and what Hindus did not do. Do you have any answer to that?
Now, regarding Graham Stains murder, well, franky, I have a lot to say but I don't want to because it will unnecessarily heat up the discussion.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:


- Person X is a foreign missionary sleeping in his vehicle with his two young sons. You (not you personally, just being illustrative) don't like the fact that he is doing missionary work so you burn them all alive.


(Sorry couldn't resist )
Wrong anology. Person X is Christanity and its followers going places to convert people and me is Hindism and its followers trying to protect themselves IN THEIR OWN HOME.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

(Sorry couldn't resist )
Wrong anology. Person X is Christanity and its followers going places to convert people and me is Hindism and its followers trying to protect themselves IN THEIR OWN HOME.


One thing that is beyond me is that why the hell people have to go into somebody else home and preach their religion that too by saying that the home owner's religion is nothing but crap. I mean, get a life : :roll:
It is no different that me coming to your house and saying hey buddy your parents suck, ditch them and try mine instead. Should I be complaining if I get kicked in my ass??
 
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand
Posts: 204
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

That is completely incorrect, and that attitude is the root of the problem. Children cannot make conscious decisions regarding their spirituality. They may be brought up in a religion, however when they are old enough they are able to question their spirituality and their belief in the religion they have been raised in. If they decide that another religion appeals to their inner spirituality in some way that their current one doesn't, or if they have some issues regarding the religion they were brought up in that they cannot reconcile, then it is the right of the individual to seek a religion (or no religion) that best suits their spiritual needs.


In a way you are right. But what you are saying is that "if a person is willingly ready to convert". Now this is different from the following modes of conversion that usually occur:
1. Through fear....by the sword/guns/terror...u get the point.
2. Through brainwashing...this is what missionaries do (atleast in conversion process)....keep on inviting people to seminars and sessions and talk, lecture, yell, sing, praise their God.
3. Through bribe....going to developing/under-developed countries and asking poverty-stricken people of other faith to convert in return for financial help (By God this one's the sickest mode and if there's hell...these missionaries and the people paying money for such things are digging their way into it.)
....also you mention about the murders of those missionaries....I completely agree with you that it is animal behavior and if it happened in my country I am ashamed of it. But think about it...when a missionary goes to the conservative Eastern hemisphere and starts to preach about the greatness of his God....he does get into the risk of not seeing Sunrise ever again.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
Jason, everytime I corner you, you change the topic or throw in new things in the discussion.


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you had ever cornered me.

I pointed to you the difference between what Christians and Muslims did (went all over the world, beat people up and converted them) and what Hindus did not do. Do you have any answer to that?


And I had pointed out to you the simularities between what you accuse Christians and Muslims of and what Hindus do. "Christians" (do you even know the difference between the various Christian demoninations?) have not undertaken what you refer to as crusades in quite some time, so you are speaking of ancient history. If there are missionaries in India, they are there because the perception the missionaries had was that India is an impovershed third-world nation that cannot take care of its own poor, and therefore they have gone there to try to help these people, as their religion demands they should. Along the way, it is very likely they have convinced some of these poor to convert to Christianity. Personally, I would worry more about the wellbeing of the so-called poor, and not what religion they choose to follow. I'm not going to get into a conversion debate since it has already been done, however "conversion" is the most often used excuse to justify Hindu terrorism against Christians in India.
And I repeat, since in order to be a Christian you must have faith, and faith is not something that can be forced upon an individual, there is no such thing as forced conversion to Christianity. But, as I also stated, we're not going to discuss conversion in this thread. Dig up the old one if you really must discuss this.
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
2. What I pointed out did not happen "ages ago". I happened less than 100 years ago in India and still happens in parts of Africa. Again, I don't know what you want to call it. Please do give a name so that we can refer to it by that name. Again, it did not happen ages ago. It is happening right now in the exact same for in Africa and in a different form in India.


I have a Nigerian immigrant here in my office and he is a Catholic. He talks very differently, he says that muslims killed 100s of thousands of Christian Nigerians simply because they were Christians. That is exactly why he came to America as a refugee..
He also pointed out that before British colonization his ancestors did not follow any particular religion. They were primarily atheistic. So Christianity wasnt exactly a conversion, it was just a choice offered and they took it up.


I hate it when people justify their logic and actions on the basis of moral superirority. While I myself subscribe to many of the belief of that set of morals, I don't like to judge somebody else by those standards. More so when the accuser has done the exact same thing in the past. It stinks of hypocricy really.


So my great-grandfather, whom I love very much, was a strong segregationist until his dying day. He would not allow a lower caste person to be anywhere within a 100 meters of him and his family. Our servants, who were lower caste could never look at any of us in the face.. so going by all this that has happened in my family in the past, I cannot complain/take action against bigotry and racism when I encounter it in the west? WRONG!!
Let me educate you a bit here.. your claims of hypocrisy are actually misled. If a person is travelling at 80mph on a 55mph highway and tells another person not to exceed the speed limit for his/her own safety is it wrong? It may be hypocritical of that person to say so.. but it does not diminish the truth in that statement. So while Christians in the past may have been responsible for pretty much the same kinds of actions and it may be "hypocritical" of them to complain against it, though I personally do not think so, it does not diminish the truth in any of their statements..


2. So Christians can definitely accuse muslims of terrorism but not no a moral ground.


So I cannot accuse a few westerners of racism because of the moral failure in my family in the past? Wrong!


No, anybody can condemn their deeds alright. It just that it will never solve the real problem. A thief will never quit theft untill he/she is convinced that theft is morally wrong. Punishment will only contain his/her actions for a certain amount of time.


I thought you were tyring to convince us that Christians cannot punish extremist muslims for their deeds because of their own conduct in the past??
 
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand
Posts: 204
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
... but its new issue that people who are following a yet unknown interpretation of hinduism are teaming up with Al Quaeda.
Its like a coalition of radical elements who think appropriate to spread terror in "dominating" "western" "culture". I put apostrophes, because I don't know if we can call if its western culture, if fastest growing nations in world market are asian...


Ok...I had replied to it and my post was deleted....I'll assume that it was a little too much for Axel to bear....so here's the softer version.
:roll: .....is this a comic relief you are providing amidst a heated debate or is this the extent of your knowledge?
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by San Tiruvan:
:roll: .....is this a comic relief you are providing amidst a heated debate or is this the extent of your knowledge?


I'm not sure what your beef is. It is a fact that two Hindu individuals have been arrested in connection with the Madrid bombings. We don't know what their involvement was or what their motivations were, other than that they were apparently involved in some manner. Their intentions may or may not have been religiously motivated, we simply don't know yet. They may have been pawns who just got caught up in something they didn't know they were dealing with, or they may have been actively involved in the plot, we just don't know.
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
we just don't know.


When Axel made his original statement, no one knew much but I think it has been stated by the officials that these two Indian citizens were arrested because they sold calling cards to the extremists and the officials wanted to interrogate them and find out how much more they knew..
A lot of Indians are in the calling card business. You only need to look at Jackson Heights in NYC to verify this.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

And I had pointed out to you the simularities between what you accuse Christians and Muslims of and what Hindus do. "Christians" (do you even know the difference between the various Christian demoninations?) have not undertaken what you refer to as crusades in quite some time, so you are speaking of ancient history. If there are missionaries in India, they are there because the perception the missionaries had was that India is an impovershed third-world nation that cannot take care of its own poor, and therefore they have gone there to try to help these people, as their religion demands they should. Along the way, it is very likely they have convinced some of these poor to convert to Christianity. Personally, I would worry more about the wellbeing of the so-called poor, and not what religion they choose to follow. I'm not going to get into a conversion debate since it has already been done, however "conversion" is the most often used excuse to justify Hindu terrorism against Christians in India.
And I repeat, since in order to be a Christian you must have faith, and faith is not something that can be forced upon an individual, there is no such thing as forced conversion to Christianity. But, as I also stated, we're not going to discuss conversion in this thread. Dig up the old one if you really must discuss this.
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]


You again circumvented the real point. Let me put it to you again very straight:
1. Muslims and Cristians did and do go places to convert people forcibly. Hindus never did that. Do you agree? Do you understand this difference?
2. I have repeatedly said that crusade may not be the right word for what I have described. Yet you keep harping on that. Do you agree that Portugese did focible converstion in India less than 100 years ago? Do you agree that foricible conversion does still occur in parts of Africa?
I understand that you do not want to call it as crusades. What do you call it?
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
1. Muslims and Cristians did and do go places to convert people forcibly. Hindus never did that. Do you agree? Do you understand this difference?


So does this put Hindus on a moral high ground? I do not think so.. Some Hindus have in the past committed worse atrocities


2. I have repeatedly said that crusade may not be the right word for what I have described. Yet you keep harping on that. Do you agree that Portugese did focible converstion in India less than 100 years ago? Do you agree that foricible conversion does still occur in parts of Africa?
I understand that you do not want to call it as crusades. What do you call it?


Its called Conversions.. can you please provide evidence that this is still going on in Africa? I spoke to a Kenyan immigrant who also works in my office and he states nothing like that goes on.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I have a Nigerian immigrant here in my office and he is a Catholic. He talks very differently, he says that muslims killed 100s of thousands of Christian Nigerians simply because they were Christians. That is exactly why he came to America as a refugee..
He also pointed out that before British colonization his ancestors did not follow any particular religion. They were primarily atheistic. So Christianity wasnt exactly a conversion, it was just a choice offered and they took it up.


Obviously, a Christian will say only that. Otherwise he would have quit christianity. If you talk to a Nigerian Muslim, you will hear the exact same story. But the fact is that both were most probably forcibly converted from their original religion. Now that there are no more people who follow the original religion, they are fighting among themselves. That's what these religions have tought them. Convert non-believers and enter heaven.
In any case, what are you trying to prove? That forcible conversions did not happen in India? Have you been to Goa? Have to been to Varanasi? Do you know what is Prayag?

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

So my great-grandfather, whom I love very much, was a strong segregationist until his dying day. He would not allow a lower caste person to be anywhere within a 100 meters of him and his family. Our servants, who were lower caste could never look at any of us in the face.. so going by all this that has happened in my family in the past, I cannot complain/take action against bigotry and racism when I encounter it in the west?


No, you can. But your grandfather cannot. See the difference?

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Let me educate you a bit here.. your claims of hypocrisy are actually misled. If a person is travelling at 80mph on a 55mph highway and tells another person not to exceed the speed limit for his/her own safety is it wrong? It may be hypocritical of that person to say so.. but it does not diminish the truth in that statement. So while Christians in the past may have been responsible for pretty much the same kinds of actions and it may be "hypocritical" of them to complain against it, though I personally do not think so, it does not diminish the truth in any of their statements..


It has nothing to do with truth on untruth. We are not talking about that.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I thought you were tyring to convince us that Christians cannot punish extremist muslims for their deeds because of their own conduct in the past??


Come on now. This is not about one christian accusing one muslim. It is about Christianly accusing Islam and vice versa. And this is not about past. This is about right now. Both are doing the same thing right now. So how can one accuse the other?? Do you not see the difference??? It is about concepts propogated by these religions.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

So does this put Hindus on a moral high ground?


Yes, it does. On this issue.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I do not think so.. Some Hindus have in the past committed worse atrocities


True, and it does not, on those issues. In fact, as you are aware, India has take really meaningful steps to cure this problem. Even the US does not have the guts to do similar thing.
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
It has nothing to do with truth on untruth. We are not talking about that.


It does.. here is a quote from you:

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
So Christians can definitely accuse muslims of terrorism but not no a moral ground


You are contradicting yourself in the two quotes above. In one you are stating that Christians cannot claim the ground of morality and in the other you are stating that this is not a discussion on the moral grounds of these accusations.


No, you can. But your grandfather cannot. See the difference?


I do, but I am afraid you do not! Going by the same logic why cannot Christians today accuse muslims of committing and abetting heinous acts on humanity? The vast majority of them do not engage in anything along the scale of the crimes perpetrated by terrorists.


Yes, it does. On this issue.


I disagree..


True, and it does not, on those issues. In fact, as you are aware, India has take really meaningful steps to cure this problem. Even the US does not have the guts to do similar thing.


Like what? Its nice and dandy to throw around accusations but back them up, please..
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

It does.. here is a quote from you:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
So Christians can definitely accuse muslims of terrorism but not no a moral ground
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are contradicting yourself in the two quotes above. In one you are stating that Christians cannot claim the ground of morality and in the other you are stating that this is not a discussion on the moral grounds of these accusations.


What??? You are taking my comments totally out of context. I said the first thing about this:
"Let me educate you a bit here.. your claims of hypocrisy are actually misled. If a person is travelling at 80mph on a 55mph highway and tells another person not to exceed the speed limit for his/her own safety is it wrong? It may be hypocritical of that person to say so.. but it does not diminish the truth in that statement. So while Christians in the past may have been responsible for pretty much the same kinds of actions and it may be "hypocritical" of them to complain against it, though I personally do not think so, it does not diminish the truth in any of their statements.."
This was your reponse to my comment:
"It stinks of hypocricy".
When did I say it is not a discussion on the moral grounds? By pointing out the hypocricy, I am trying to prove that neither Christians nor Muslims are on a higher moral ground. You brought up the "truth" and untruth stuff. The discussion has nothing to do with that.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I do, but I am afraid you do not! Going by the same logic why cannot Christians today accuse muslims of committing and abetting heinous acts on humanity?


Because their religion also promotes the same thing. They denigrate other peoples beliefs.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Like what? Its nice and dandy to throw around accusations but back them up, please..


The same comment applies to you too. First you give facts on your comment, "Some Hindus have in the past committed worse atrocities". Then ask for my facts.
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
I am trying to prove that neither Christians nor Muslims are on a higher moral ground. You brought up the "truth" and untruth stuff. The discussion has nothing to do with that.


So, truth and morality have no equality in your world? :roll: I thought the latter was based upon the former. I cannot continue this debate if you start knocking down the agreed fundamentals of any society..


Because their religion also promotes the same thing. They denigrate other peoples beliefs.


Hold on a second here.. so are you saying that Christians fly airplanes into buildings and that people who conduct these acts claim their religion tells them to do this? If you do, then I cannot fathom what kind of a world you live in..


First you give facts on your comment, "Some Hindus have in the past committed worse atrocities". Then ask for my facts.


Should I begin with the parents who stabbed their own daughter because she fell in love with a muslim boy or should I start with the Shiv-Sena leader who says that Hindus must start suicide bombing campaigns against other religions?
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Should I begin with the parents who stabbed their own daughter because she fell in love with a muslim boy or should I start with the Shiv-Sena leader who says that Hindus must start suicide bombing campaigns against other religions?


You are getting confused with the religion and the people who practice it. Hinduism does not say kill your daughter if she falls love with a muslim. Islam does say kill kafirs. Christianity does preach conversion.
You know what, forget it. You are bringing totally arbitrary logic into this discussion. There is no point in discussing further. Thank you.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
You know what, forget it. You are bringing totally arbitrary logic into this discussion. There is no point in discussing further. Thank you.


You keep accusing people who refuse to accept your arguments as valid of this type of thing. I believe you are correct in that it would be pointless to continue this discussion.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

You are getting confused with the religion and the people who practice it. Hinduism does not say kill your daughter if she falls love with a muslim. Islam does say kill kafirs. Christianity does preach conversion.
You know what, forget it. You are bringing totally arbitrary logic into this discussion. There is no point in discussing further. Thank you.



Have you ever studies Islam or Christianity or u r just saying this as the other people say or making your own perception.
Befor commenting anything to a individual person, religion or communitry I think first gain some knowledge about them.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lot of things have been said and all is, sorry to say but another rant.
Jason has one example of Stain killing, he will repeat it as many times as he can.
But he will never be able to see how many missionaries enjoy safety in India.
JM : - Unknown persons kill Hindu VHP activists in an attack on a train
Please correct your facts before siting any true example.
AW here is my post which I was typing yesterday but could not post because of work.

========= Date: 19 Mar

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Correct, to the person being killed it does not matter; but we are not discussing the opinions that dead people hold.


Neither I am talking about the person who is dead.
Ask a mother, does she cares whether his son died because of bullet of terrorist or of soldier ??
We are discussing what classifies someone as a terrorist and why so many muslims support terrorists.
Sometimes you also talk logically.
As I said earlier, what kind of picture your mind has all depends on what kind of information your are being fed.

Originally posted by R K Singh:

But there are people who think he is a national hero.
Do you think that guy care less about world. No, because he was told that Dr. Khan is hero so they say so.


And now I am sure in US media it must be propagating that they made Pakistan for all kind of peace activities. [after all now Pak is non-NATO ally]
But in India propaganda will be diffrent.
May I think that now you understand why people support Dr. Khan. Who support Dr. Khan are neither terrorist nor they like blasting of school bus.
They are very much normal like you who think that they are human others who oppose them are lunatic.
And what you have to say about Thomas's comment that IRA is not Chritian terrorist group ??
herb: so Al-Queda fights for territory or its own space
RK: And most of them are fighting for their own territory.
I said most of them.
In short, terrorists do exist.
it seems you are giving some effort defending them with your weak justifications for their murders.
I am not defending them.
I am objecting on your generalization of terrorism and one religion.
Did you get what I am trying to say ??
that all religions are not equal, some are much more violent than others.
some were violent 500yrs back and some are more violent today and some other will be violent tomorrow.
You are right, at a given time, not all religions are equally violent.
The difference in religion just added to the already existing feeling that the British were an alien nation imposng their domination on them.

What a justification
So what you have to say about Gachal, were they terrorist or freedom fighter ??
JM: And today Hindus are terrorizing Christians and Muslims in India. So what's your point?
So all Hindus are terrorist[Am I suppose to put smiley] ??

==== Date : 20 Mar
herb: Everybody is at a different mental state.
Vegetarian thinks that he is morally superior in mental state and is more human than ravening meat-eater.
Do you buy this theory ??

PMc: I have always stated that I believe Islam is not conducive to democracy
And who told you that Hinduism or Christianity or X preaches democracy ??

AW are we discussing moral superiority of religions or is it good to term one particular religion as terrorists ??
Did you guys get that, you, more human than others, think that its right to call people terrorists just because they belongs to one particular religion.
And I cant buy this non-sense.
And not all generalisation are accurate.
Obviously every idiot has right to think that his mind is more intelligent than others, after all idoits are also human and sometimes more human than others.
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by R K Singh:
And who told you that Hinduism or Christianity or X preaches democracy ??


they do not, but they also do not preach against it. Islam preaches submission, its all about submitting your will to that of God. And God speaks through Quran. Now how a devout muslim can have democratic ideas is beyond me. It would seem from the above that lack of free will will only lead to theocratic/authoritarian governments.
On the other hand, Christianity and Hinduism do not require the submission of free will. Free will, free spirit of the human are the most important ingredients of any successful democracy and that is why these religions are more likely to succeed at forming democratic governments.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
they do not, but they also do not preach against it. Islam preaches submission, its all about submitting your will to that of God.


If I am not wrong, then all kinds of religion states the same, submitting your will to that of God.

And God speaks through Quran.
So you have Bible, all Vedas, Upnishads etc.
On the other hand, Christianity and Hinduism do not require the submission of free will.
What is your definition of free will ??
And I also dont understand what made you belive that any religion does not require submission of free will[as I understand free will].
Now how a devout muslim can have democratic ideas is beyond me.
Frankly, how can any religious person have democratic thoughts.
Now we can have a new religion which states that Law is God and Law will be made by people whom people of that religion will choose.
As per my knowledge no such religion exists, as per today.
Because of some fanatics you cant generalised all people of that religion.
[ March 20, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by R K Singh:
And I also dont understand what made you belive that any religion does not require submission of free will[as I understand free will].


Submission of will is different from subject of morality. The Bible and Vedas mainly preach morality. They do not require you to submit your free will to the teachings.
Hinduism is one of the most libertarian religions in existence. Christianity is the main cause behind modern day capitalism and one only needs to look at modern christian / hindu societies to realize how much freedom is available there. On the contrary, show me one Islamic society which has freedom anywhere near the levels established by these two societies?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 820
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Christianity is the main cause behind modern day capitalism


I disagree - there were plenty of capitalist states before Christ came along.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

You keep accusing people who refuse to accept your arguments as valid of this type of thing. I believe you are correct in that it would be pointless to continue this discussion.


Jason, show me one post where I have done this before. This is the first time I have said that I can't discuss with somebody who is bringing absolutely irrelevent points.
You haven't yet answered the point blank questions that I asked you in my earlier post. Is it because you don't have any answers? or you don't want to answer?
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
People who are bitching about treatment of minorities in India should read this article: http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/22rajeev.htm
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
I can't discuss with somebody who is bringing absolutely irrelevent points.


So you take one point out of the three I mentioned and you dismiss the argument as irrelevant? Nice ploy!
What makes you so different from the radicals who claim their religion is superior to others? You seem to be stating the same..
Some radical Islamist once said to muslims all around the world, "We may belong to their nationality, but we all owe to our own religion". I see no difference between your viewpoint and one above.
 
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 165
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

So you take one point out of the three I mentioned and you dismiss the argument as irrelevant? Nice ploy!


Which point of yours that was relevent to the discussion and that I did not answer?

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

What makes you so different from the radicals who claim their religion is superior to others? You seem to be stating the same..


OK, so people here can say that Christianity is superior and morally better than Islam and that is ok. But if I point out that Christianity is no different from Islam because they both share the same doctrine of propagating their own religion by any means then that makes me a radical. I clearly said that Hinduism is a lot better than these "broker to heaven" religions, "ON THIS ISSUE". Did you not read that?
My personal belief is that all religions are crap and outdated. However, when people started talking about moral supriority of their religion over Islam, I just wanted to prove that their religion is as crappy and immoral as Islam. Hinduism is better that both in that respect.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Some radical Islamist once said to muslims all around the world, "We may belong to their nationality, but we all owe to our own religion". I see no difference between your viewpoint and one above.


Because you haven't been reading my posts unbiasedly. I have never said or meant whatever you are ascribing to me here.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 40
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It turns out, interestingly enough, that the Hindus actually didnt perform the terrorism. They just sold phones to the terrorists!
 
Parth Sagdeo
Ranch Hand
Posts: 40
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
May I add unknowing that they were terorists.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Parth Sagdeo:
It turns out, interestingly enough, that the Hindus actually didnt perform the terrorism. They just sold phones to the terrorists!


Why you are attaching religion to them?Will you say ,Christians are invading Muslims in Iraq?
 
Stop it! You're embarassing me! And you are embarrassing this tiny ad!
Java file APIs (DOC, XLS, PDF, and many more)
https://products.aspose.com/total/java
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!