Israelis have killed Saruman?

[DeyaEddin Muh]

For all people how read this thread, I want to tell a short story that changed the way of my life,
When I was at high school I used to be the first student on my class ,I finished high school with grade 97% ,then I went to BierZeit University which 15 mile north of Jerusalem. That was in 1996, the peace process was the lovely dream for all people form each sides and the hope was in the air. I was one of them .I met Palestinians friends as well as Israelis too. I remember one day my friend came to me and start talking about Sharon wants to visit Moslem mosque in Jerusalem but many people in Israel is against this .Tow day after that I was at university as usual when people start talking about Sharon�s guardians killing 9 prayers inside the holly mosque. After that, people around me start talking about new Israeli checkpoints between cities. I remember the first day of my life when I faced the Israeli soldiers ,I don�t know why �.that was when I tried to reach home (my original city) thy forced me to get out from the bus and made me facing the wall for entire 3 hours .
Then I realized that was just the beginning. The university was closed �we spend 3 days without food �I remember that we shared food�. animals cannot eat...
One day I remember soldiers broke our door and attack all people in the house and thy kicked my little sister from the back �.doctors said it might that she will never have children in the future �
Now I ran away from all this crisis to nearest safe country (Jordan ) But Palestinians can�t stay for more than 6 months thy said .so we moved again and again until my father find a job here in Qatar and I had to start my study again . Now I am 27 years old and still in year 2 .I lost 6 years of my life �.between trying to escape and trying to continue.
NOW ��Just �can any one give one reason to NOT hate Israeli Government especially Mr. SHARON .I said before I have Israeli friends and thy felt sorry about me �but thy hate there government more than thy hate hamas or �.Bin laden ether .
I want to say for all people who make judgments from the news �.NEWS is not the truth ask any one who goes there. People just ask for the truth �I have been there � I saw..Every thing �believe me �who start every thing is Israel not the Palestinians �
AND one question � what is the difference between patriotism and terrorism (I�m talking about Palestine case .) most of buses which was exploded �was soldiers buses not civilians ,however the NEWS again said (( children and women )) soldiers like how assassins Mohammed ALdorah(6 years old child) in cold blood and NEWS said (( mistake ))�.. Mistake continued for 43 minutes and more than 15 bolts�
JUST asks your self-why killing old man on wheelchair...And thy captured him for 13 years before thy release him 3 years ago... if he such danger why releasing him �why this games �

[Jason Menard]

Tow day after that I was at university as usual when people start talking about Sharon’s guardians killing 9 prayers inside the holly mosque.
Most news sourcesstate that the Palestinians started the violence when Sharon visited Temple Mount. While many state that the reason the violence began was simply because he visited, there is some evidence that not only could Arafat have ended it before it got out of hand but refused to, but also that the violence was pre-planned and not spontaneous.
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/barghouti.shtml
But Palestinians can’t stay for more than 6 months thy said.
There have been just as many Palestinians displaced from Jordan (which also used to be Palestine) as Israel (more I believe), so tell me why this isn't a source of outrage?
who start every thing is Israel not the Palestinians
Yet the Palestinians refuse to negotiate in good faith to find a realistic solution to the crisis. Keep in mind that a realistic solution does not include either the outright destruction of Israel, not does it include the destruction of Israel from within via the "right of return". Israel has successfully negotiated other aggressor nations from whom they occupied land and who were willing to negotiate in good faith. Egypt is a prime example of this. They negotiated in good faith and had their land returned, including the bulldozing of Israeli settlements which were on that land. Israel thereofore has a proven history of being willing to reach a settlement in such disputes, whereas the Palestinians have a proven history of being unable to do so, and in fact sabotaging most promising efforts.
what is the difference between patriotism and terrorism
Patriots only target military and government targets, terrorists favor the targetting of civillians.
most of buses which was exploded
If we accept this statement, then the key word is most. What about the nightclubs, pizza parlors, children's bar mitzvahs, and grocery stores (to name but a scant few)? Were these also "military"? How about the settlers, primarily women and children, gunned down in cold blood inside their houses by Palestinian "patriots"? How about the two school children playing hooky from school who were murdered by having their skulls bashed in with stones? Were those also military targets? Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that Israel kills many Palestinian civillians while carrying out their operations, and there are a few reasons for this, but they are not targetted. A big part of the reason is that the Palestinian terrorists like to try to hide themselves in amongst civillians, making it tougher to kill them without inflicting injury or death on non-combatants.
soldiers like how assassins Mohammed ALdorah(6 years old child) in cold blood and NEWS said (( mistake ))….. Mistake continued for 43 minutes and more than 15 bolts
Mohammed Al Dorah was 12, not 6. The Palestinian authorities now use his image to recruit and incite other children to violence. And here's a question to ask yourself, if the Israelis were shooting for 43 minutes, who else was shooting? A gun battle cannot rage one sided. I'm not defineding their actions though, it was a tragic event. It's too bad that the Palestinians now use his image to further their own violent ends, not to mention its a pity that Palestinian terrorists encourage children to go into harm's way because their deaths are of great propaganda value.
JUST asks your self-why killing old man on wheelchair
Because he routinely ordered the deaths of Israeli civillians and also generally incited others to murder. He was a terrorist with quite a bit of blood on his hands.
... if he such danger why releasing
They released him in a deal with the Palestinians when it looked like peace might actually be possible.
Again, don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone will disagree that the Palestinians haven't suffered and that they don't have legitimate greivances. The entire issue, for me anyway, is with their overall goals (the destruction of Israel either outright or via the right of return) and the way they carry them out (targetting civillians, using children to fight and die for them). If they would instead pursue a goal of an amicable peace, realizing that Israel will always exist where it is as a Jewish state and that there will not be any right of return, and abandons once and for all the use of terrorism as a weapon, not only would the Palestinians get peace, they would likely get more support in the world.
[ March 29, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[DeyaEddin Muh]

Palestinians started the violence when Sharon visited Temple Mount. While many state that the reason the violence began was simply because he visited
SIMPLY...you don not Know what is the situation in this area ...believe me .SIMPLY is not the word .He went to the Moslem's mosque to pray ..to tell the palestinians this is our Temple NOT You mosque .and the Story of the Tunnel under the Mosque ((the Moslems mosque )) is not nogatioable..Israel wants to distroy the Mosque to Build Jwish Temple...
and the news again lieing : the article you reffer to is not telling the truthe ..I was there and no one ..no one talk about INTIFADA before SHARON's attacke

There have been just as many Palestinians displaced from Jordan (which also used to be Palestine) as Israel (more I believe), so tell me why this isn't a source of outrage?
Do I have the right to exist...or you want me to find another home country on MARS..?
Yet the Palestinians refuse to negotiate in good faith to find a realistic solution to the crisis
When BARAK was on the government ... peace process was completly on the right way ...what ..?? that was not the palestinains who negotiating...??
peace process started on 1991 ..and crisis start on 2001....more than 10 years and palestinians waiting for hope ... please don't make wrong Judgments and say Palestinians refuse to negotiate in good faith
terrorists favor the targetting of civillians
Who said that .... ? NEWS again ? all resistants are targetting the ARMEY ..but no one talk about this attackes..When it happend one wroge attacke .. Palestinans say NO before the Israel....I hope one day you can just come and see in you eyes ... how much was the releationship is good between Israeli people and Palestinians before Mr.Sharon ...

The Palestinian authorities now use his image to recruit and incite other children to violence. And here's a question to ask yourself, if the Israelis were shooting for 43 minutes, who else was shooting?
No ask you self WHERE THAT HAPPEND ..TelAviv ..ASHDOTE...NO..it's in the middle of GAZA ... What was the Israeli soldiers doing in the middle of GAZA of Beathlahem of NABLUS or JENIN...((JENIN where ...57 people Barred alive and the world was watching ))
Again, don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone will disagree that the Palestinians haven't suffered and that they don't have legitimate greivances. The entire issue, for me anyway, is with their overall goals (the destruction of Israel either outright or via the right of return)

ok... If you think so,why the solution you taking about is near to killing palestinans with diffencing on SHARON policies ,,,
I want to tell you .. I WANT TO GO HOME ? I'm dreaming with my small little house at my village.. Why you have the right to visit any country around the world but for me I don not have right to return home.. thanks to you and people like you how supporting sharon and his government... for that ...I think It will be just dream for a while

[Michael Ernest]

It occurs to me after listening to the Israeli-Palestinian controversy for decades that there is only one question to ask: "Who has a right to exist, and where?" And until I hear someone say "we all do, where we stand" without qualification, I see little future other than a constant game of frenzied diplomacy, in which good people try to maintain enough reason to keep one from killing the other.

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by deyaeddin Muh:
NOW ��Just �can any one give one reason to NOT hate Israeli Government especially Mr. SHARON.

Sure. History has demonstrated that hate gets you nowhere. It does not improve the conditions of your life, nor anyone else's. It does not eradicate your enemy. Rather, it perpetuates conflict. No one ever achieved or brokered peace on an agreement that open embraced reciprocal hatred.
Hatred does not work.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
There will not be peace in the Middle East until Palestinians start loving their children more than they hate Jews.

Well said. Of course Palestinians love power more than they love their children and will go to any length to get it.
They were thrown out by Jordan and Syria. Even Iraq didn't want them...

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
It occurs to me after listening to the Israeli-Palestinian controversy for decades that there is only one question to ask: "Who has a right to exist, and where?" And until I hear someone say "we all do, where we stand" without qualification, I see little future other than a constant game of frenzied diplomacy, in which good people try to maintain enough reason to keep one from killing the other.

The Israeli stance has long been to accept that non-Jews can live in Israel as long as they obey Israeli civil law.
Some Muslims (and other too, but those are not violent about it) can't accept that, wanting the land for themselves and the Jews killed or driven out.
In fact, there's a large subgroup of Muslims living peacefully inside Israel that want nothing to do with the PLO and their cronies who are doing whatever they can to put all Muslims in a bad light.
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/main.stm for the non-PLO side of the newsgathering which you don't hear about on CNN and the BBC (let alone more leftwing press).

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

There will be ever lasting peace if jews leave the non-sense demand of Israel and live peacefully with Arabs.

You mean the nonsense demand of being allowed to live in peace?
Yes, as soon as there are no more Jews because they've all been killed there will be peace between Jews and Arabs, Hitler understood that and worked dilligently towards bringing that goal about.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

You mean the nonsense demand of being allowed to live in peace?

No, I mean non-sense demand of illeaglly occupying someone else land and declaring it seperate nation.
Killing is not a solution. Neither giving comments like following :

They were thrown out by Jordan and Syria. Even Iraq didn't want them...

I think you would not like me to remind you that same phrase is eaually(or should I say more) infamous for Jews.
And Palestines need not to go anywhere else if there would have not been Israel issue. rt ??
who are doing whatever they can to put all Muslims in a bad light.

I dont know how many of you see this fight as Muslim Vs Jews but I can say about myself that I see it as fight for land which is being occupied by some outsiders.
But this is true only from one side because from Jews side its totaly religious war.

[Don Stadler]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Let me believe in what you are saying.
But isnt it Arab's(Turk) who allowed jews in their territory when all other nations were throwing them out??

Don't say that to a Turk. Unpredictable consequences. The Turks haven't expelled Jews, though they did expell the Greeks during the 20's. Of course the Greeks tried to conquer a large chunk of Asia Minor.....

Originally posted by R K Singh:

I just did little research and came to know that its not only Arab nation(Baghdad etc.) who expelled jews but there were lot of other european nation also who expelled them. So its not only about Arabs.

This is true, but I thought you were the one who wanted to limit discussion to the last 100 years? So that pretty much limits us to The Final Solution and (possibly) L'Affaire Dreyfus. What the Germans did wasn't exactly expelling the Jews. It was an attempt to eliminate the Jews. Completely. The Dreyful affair was about framing a Jew for crimes he didn't commit. To find European countries expelling Jews you have to go back to the Spanish Inquisition, the 1600's at the most recent.

Originally posted by R K Singh:

But none of the resource tell the reason, why they were expelled or treated differently ??

I suggest you consult The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for that information. It's fiction but it does show the 'reasons' clearly. Assuming (as I don't) that reason was used. You could also try Mein Kampf.

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

No, I mean non-sense demand of illeaglly occupying someone else land and declaring it seperate nation.

And Palestines need not to go anywhere else if there would have not been Israel issue. rt ??

So you are saying Isreal does not have a right to exist?

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:

So you are saying Isreal does not have a right to exist?

yup, he's quoting the PLO manifesto almost word for word.
Of course the "Palestinians" had the Lebanon (and ruined it), lived in Syria (and were thrown out for repeatedly trying to overthrow the government there through terrorism and civil war), lived in Jordan (and were thrown out for ...), lived in Kuwait (and were thrown out after murdering hundreds of Kuwaitis during the Iraqi invasion), and now are living in Israel and doing the same thing all over again.
At this time no Muslim country wants them, they've all learned better. Iran pays them handsomely to stay where they are almost as much as because they're killing Jews.
They were given their own state (Lebanon), and ruined it. They were given semi-autonomous areas in 3 countries (Syria, Jordan and Israel) and ruined all.
Hardly the peaceloving people the PLO press secretariat would have you believe.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
So you are saying Isreal does not have a right to exist?

Its too late now. It has born, so it will exist.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

yup, he's quoting the PLO manifesto almost word for word.

I am happy that without knowing them, I can feel their pain.

Of course the "Palestinians" had the Lebanon (and ruined it), lived in Syria (and were thrown out for repeatedly trying to overthrow the government there through terrorism and civil war), lived in Jordan (and were thrown out for ...), lived in Kuwait (and were thrown out after murdering hundreds of Kuwaitis during the Iraqi invasion), and now are living in Israel and doing the same thing all over again.
At this time no Muslim country wants them, they've all learned better. Iran pays them handsomely to stay where they are almost as much as because they're killing Jews.
What treatment jews were getting in Europe and Russia do I need to remind you. Why they were getting such a harsh treatment, I have not found the reason till now but obviously something must be wrong in the jews (in your wordings) that whereever they went they created problem and thrown out, now even they got their own so called land but still they cant live in peace.
[AW FYI, these are not my thoughts but I am just trying to tell you that stop being like

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Hitler, Stalin, Arafat.
Khomeini too probably.

who used to think the same about jews.
]

[Don Stadler]

I have not found the reason till now but obviously something must be wrong in the jews

They killed Jesus don't you know? Don't forget that Spain also forcibly converted or expelled the remaining Muslims after conquering Granada in 1492. Does that mean that Muslims and Jews caused the problem or perhaps that the dominant Christians caused the problem? Historians think it was the latter.
Something similar happened in Russia. The Jews ungratefully declined to be converted to Christianity and were therefore considered troublemakers....
[ March 29, 2004: Message edited by: Don Stadler ]

[Tonny Tssagovic]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QB]
"right of return"
[QB]

Strange my friend, you have problems with rights passed by the UN General Assembly Resolution (194, right for the pale. to return), but no problems with UN declaring the state of Isreal?

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

I have not found the reason till now but obviously something must be wrong in the jews (in your wordings) that whereever they went they created problem and thrown out, now even they got their own so called land but still they cant live in peace.

The same can be said about Muslims. Whereever they are in substantial numbers (but in minority) they create problems. They got everything but still cant live and let others live in peace. Now, since muslim is not an ethnicity so there must be some problem in the religion itself.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tonny Tssagovic:

Strange my friend, you have problems with rights passed by the UN General Assembly Resolution (194, right for the pale. to return), but no problems with UN declaring the state of Isreal?

Fortunately for peace in the world, UN General Assembly Resolutions rarely carry much weight, nor are they generally legally binding. This document talks about the Israeli position on 194 and the so-called right of return.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
The same can be said about Muslims. Whereever they are in substantial numbers (but in minority) they create problems.

As per new theory, even they need not to be in substantial number to create problem. [I dont know, should I put winking smiley or not]
I think you are talking about fanatic Muslims.
There is a big difference between fanatic X and X.
Thats true for all religions, and Muslims are not exception.
Just look around, you might find a lot of fanatics in your own religion, which happens to be mine too, even though they might be in majority.
You might find fanatic christian who will tell you that Iraq war is war against Islam.
And following one's religion does not make one fanatic.
I think, I will never agree that one particular group has one common characteristics [at least not in negative sense].

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

As per new theory, even they need not to be in substantial number to create problem. [I dont know, should I put winking smiley or not]
I think you are talking about fanatic Muslims.
There is a big difference between fanatic X and X.
Thats true for all religions, and Muslims are not exception.
Just look around, you might find a lot of fanatics in your own religion, which happens to be mine too, even though they might be in majority.
You might find fanatic christian who will tell you that Iraq war is war against Islam.
And following one's religion does not make one fanatic.
I think, I will never agree that one particular group has one common characteristics [at least not in negative sense].

Show me one case where Hindus/Buddhists/Jains/Sikhs are in substantial number but still in minorty and are causing problem to the majority/country as a whole?
On the other hand where ever Muslims (and to some extent Christians) get a little bit of foothold, they start causing trouble. Their whole ideology is to 'Islam'wash the whole world. Look what they did to Mideast. And their religion encourages them to do the same to all over the world.

[Jason Menard]

TB: As paranoid a statement as I have ever heard. You're anti-anti-americanism and anti-anti-semitism is as rediculous as them.
From the shifting of the argument to me personally, would it be fair to assume then that you are unable to counter my argument?
TB: give it up Singh, you'll never have an effect on the pro-semite population on this board
If I am as you say, a pro-Semite, and you oppose my positions in this regard, what does that make you?
PS: Your replies when someone doesn't agee with you do get tedious.

[Nathan Thurm]

On the other hand where ever Muslims (and to some extent Christians) get a little bit of foothold, they start causing trouble. Their whole ideology is to 'Islam'wash the whole world. Look what they did to Mideast. And their religion encourages them to do the same to all over the world.

Been following this thread and decided to jump on this point, the latest (though not the last I'm sure) in the back and forth and back and forth discussion about violence and Muslims in the world. For me though I'm done with these mental gymnastics, because I find the following quote from a moderator of an Islamic forum very telling and the most straightforward answer I've read so far. I had been looking for information on the discovery of algebra and found these two questions and answers at the following link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4islam/message/1191

>15. Why are muslims so violent? Why can't they live in
>peace with their neighbors?
>Chechnya,Kashmir,Pakistan,USA,UK,etc Everytime they
>get a little power, they declare Jihad.
>
>16. Now saying we give kashmir independence and it
>goes to Pakistan. why can't we live in peace with
>neighbours

15. Who bothers who?... Insignificant to Islam. ...
16. Same as #15 as far as I can tell.

A question asking why can't Muslims live in peace, and an answer that says it basically doesn't matter, it's insignificant to Islam! No guilt, no quotes out of the Koran about whoever saves a life saves mankind, no proofs, no dodges, nothing about land, no dissimulation,no rationalizations, no attempts to point at other religions and say they're violent too, just basically, it doesn't matter whether Muslims live in peace with their neighbors or not. Doesn't matter who're the ones starting the wars or not. Learning to "play well with others" just isn't something they need to be concerned about doing evidently, it's insignificant to their religion.

I realize that this is just one person's opinion, but it seems the most honest, reaonable answer as to why Muslim violence is found in so many countries today. And until this attitude changes, I think we're in a world of trouble.

[Tim Baker]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
TB: As paranoid a statement as I have ever heard. You're anti-anti-americanism and anti-anti-semitism is as rediculous as them.
From the shifting of the argument to me personally, would it be fair to assume then that you are unable to counter my argument?
TB: give it up Singh, you'll never have an effect on the pro-semite population on this board
If I am as you say, a pro-Semite, and you oppose my positions in this regard, what does that make you?
PS: Your replies when someone doesn't agee with you do get tedious.

Counter your argument that the whole of Europe is anti-american and anti-semitic? You can't unprove any conspiracy theory, like little aliens are controlling the president. You just dismiss them because they are obviously based in fiction.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tim Baker:
Counter your argument that the whole of Europe is anti-american and anti-semitic?

Except that I never made that claim. The word I used was prevalent, which is defined as "widely or commonly occurring, existing, accepted, or practiced."
I didn't feel the need to back this up since I figured it was a given... One of those things that everybody just accepts as fact.
Anti-Americanism in Europe: A Cultural Problem
Anti-Semitism and Ethnicity in Europe

You can't unprove any conspiracy theory, like little aliens are controlling the president. You just dismiss them because they are obviously based in fiction.

That's nice, except that I am not advancing any conspiracy theories. So once again, am I to assume that your penchant for trying to keep the argument focused on the participants instead of the issues is somehow related to an inability to make an argument?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Nathan Thurm:
A question asking why can't Muslims live in peace, and an answer that says it basically doesn't matter, it's insignificant to Islam!

Telling a half truth is more dangerous than telling a lie.
For your reading pleasure I am giving the full answer from the link you pointed out.

>15. Why are muslims so violent? Why can't they live in
>peace with their neighbors?
>Chechnya,Kashmir,Pakistan,USA,UK,etc Everytime they
>get a little power, they declare Jihad.
>
>16. Now saying we give kashmir independence and it
>goes to Pakistan. why can't we live in peace with
>neighbours
15. Who bothers who?... Insignificant to Islam. Insha'Allah I'll fill you in after I get my politics degree in a few years. ;-)
16. Same as #15 as far as I can tell.

Did you read this, "Insha'Allah I'll fill you in after I get my politics degree in a few years. ;-)".
It says that all the countries where there is problem, its because of politics, it has nothing to do anything with religion.
But as usual you will read/see what you want to read/see.
Here seriously neither I nor anyone can help. Your attitude is yours. And only you can change, others can only tell you that, look man you missed so and so line becuase of your attitude. So read all lines.
And atleast while telling to someone else, tell the full story, not your interpretation cause every individual has its own mind to think and interpret.
Have I corrected you or you have to say something more...

[Tim Baker]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I didn't feel the need to back this up since I figured it was a given... One of those things that everybody just accepts as fact.

Obviously not. And why do you continue to think that providing links to other peoples opinions seems to constitute proof? I can provide you a link to an article about aliens controlling the government if you want.

[Don Stadler]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

Show me one case where Hindus/Buddhists/Jains/Sikhs are in substantial number but still in minorty and are causing problem to the majority/country as a whole?
On the other hand where ever Muslims (and to some extent Christians) get a little bit of foothold, they start causing trouble. Their whole ideology is to 'Islam'wash the whole world. Look what they did to Mideast. And their religion encourages them to do the same to all over the world.

Didn't the Sihks assasinate Indira Ghandi after she ordered an attack on the Golden Temple, which had been taken over by fanatics? Seems to me that the Japanese Shoguns put down the orders of Buddhist warrior monks, though I don't know who started that one. The Aztecs in North America weren't sweethearts, either.

[HS Thomas]

Who is this unfortunate Saruman ?
Oh, Yassin! Apart from looking a little alike there is no other similarity.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tim Baker:
Obviously not. And why do you continue to think that providing links to other peoples opinions seems to constitute proof? I can provide you a link to an article about aliens controlling the government if you want.

Assumptions confirmed it would seem.

[HS Thomas]

A link to other people's opinions.
Jenin refugee camp

[Don Stadler]

Yet another opinion: Stop Using Children

[Tim Baker]

Originally posted by Don Stadler:
Yet another opinion: Stop Using Children

I'm sorry I'm not registered with the washington post. Is that an article telling the palestinians to stop using children as bombs or the israeli army to stop using those children for publicity purposes?
[ March 30, 2004: Message edited by: Tim Baker ]

[Don Stadler]

Both actually. It's also proposing that the UN pass a resolution condemning the use of children and the mentally simple to carry bombs and carry out suicide bombings, noting that the UN's failure to acknowledge such things does not raise it's credibility in the US.
[ March 30, 2004: Message edited by: Don Stadler ]

[HS Thomas]

True.
Palestinian Women Demand Arafat Stop 'Sending Children to Die'
Sierra Leone's child soldiers? Or Somalia's?
Defending Children`s Human Rights
Arafat should be taken to task for condoning the abuse of children.
The Irish weren't immune either if I remember correctly.

[Don Stadler]

Neither were the Black & Tans. No virgins, HS....

[Don Stadler]

Oops! Thanks, Tim, for changing you're post to mke my reply look like utter nonsense....

[Phil Chuang]

Originally posted by Tim Baker:

Obviously not. And why do you continue to think that providing links to other peoples opinions seems to constitute proof? I can provide you a link to an article about aliens controlling the government if you want.

In that case, do you believe that other people's opinions are always false? I mean after all, it is probably just someone's 2nd or 32512345th-hand opinion, so it's probably not true. I mean, regardless of the authority of the source, it must be demonstrably false since it doesn't fit in with your preconceived notion of reality.
And how do you go to the restroom? It's just someone's opinion of a room writ large on a sign in bold letters. For all you know it could be aliens mind-controlling the writers of the sign, and that the architect's original intent for the room was to play billiards.
It must be hard living in a world where you must determine the veracity of every single thing on your own personal experiences.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by Don Stadler:
Neither were the Black & Tans. No virgins, HS....

A bit further back in Irish history. Did they use children too?
How many years, must the English bathe in Irish tears
How many must die, as the coffins pass the mothers cry
The day will come, when the children never hear the sound of a drum
The day will come, when the children never fear the sound of a gun
They hanged young Kevin Barry high
Just a lad of eighteen years
EIRE first Seems they did.
[ March 30, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

The British were kind of busy re-building Iraq at the same time.

---

After capturing Baghdad in 1917, the British promised elections the following year , but they didn't even begin drafting the voting laws until 1920 and the elections only closed in 1924. What's more the British manipulated the process at every turn to obtain an assembly to their liking. When Shi'ite clerics complained that the voting rules had been stacked against the Shi'ite majority , the British declared the leading Imams to be citizens of Persia and deported them. The entire Shi'ite clergy followed their leaders into exile. When the ballot was finally counted popular Iraqi nationalist candidates received fewer votes than some Jewish and Christian candidates.

---

From the LA Times. It would need to be confirmed before blindly believing anything one reads. Hot on the heels of WWI it would not be too surprising if this was truly the case and definitely not laudable.
How does the American postwar plan in Iraq compare one may ask.

[Don Stadler]

We'll just have to wait and see, HS. It should be fairly unchallenging to better the 1917-1924 record, and unless the US claps the Shiite leadership into Camp X-Ray it will be difficult to exceed the cheek of deporting the Shiite leadership en-masse to Iran.
But we're behind schedule on elections so let's not boast too soon....