An Italian(born) as Indian PM - - - > how about that

[Pradeep bhatt]

Those who know Italian:

Dont worry, Italian will be introduced in schools and every one will be read the article.

[Joe King]

To all those people who are saying that the new PM is Italian and not Indian, do you therefore think that the mechanism where by she received Indian nationality is flawed? If she has been given Indian nationality through some kind of official procedure, then why isn't that good enough to make her Indian? What about other people who have been given Indian nationality - are they also not Indian?

[Arjun Shastry]

As she is on the way of becoming PM,some BJP 'stalwarts' are crying unnecessarily on foreign issue.Sushma Swaraj is one case.She and other 'patriots' are going to resign from Rajya Sabha(upper house)!!People in country have clearly voted against BJP.That means people don't care artificial issues like foreign origin,Ram Mandir etc but rather interested in JOBS and business.

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by Joe King:
To all those people who are saying that the new PM is Italian and not Indian, do you therefore think that the mechanism where by she received Indian nationality is flawed? If she has been given Indian nationality through some kind of official procedure, then why isn't that good enough to make her Indian? What about other people who have been given Indian nationality - are they also not Indian?

Joe,

Citizenship and Prime mintership are different things. I can become a US citizen and not US President.

[Pradeep bhatt]

interested in JOBS and business

Jobs and business is doing well.

[Joe King]

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


Joe,

Citizenship and Prime mintership are different things. I can become a US citizen and not US President.

This is quite interesting. Its almost like saying "we accept person X as an equal citizen, but we don't think they should get the top job". In your example it seems as if there are two classes of Americans - those who can be president and those who can't.

Personally I think that if a person is accepted into a country and given citizenship of that country then they should be treated as a full blown citizen, not an almost-citizen.

It seems as if the main issue here is trust - people don't trust a foreigner (or person perceived as being a foreigner) to not have some hidden loyalty to their country of origin, even if they have gone through all the process of swearing loyalty to their new country, and even discarding their old nationality.

[Sameer Jamal]

Originally posted by Joe King:


It seems as if the main issue here is trust - people don't trust a foreigner (or person perceived as being a foreigner) to not have some hidden loyalty to their country of origin, even if they have gone through all the process of swearing loyalty to their new country, and even discarding their old nationality.

It has nothing to do with trust, it is a political issue one party wants an edge over other by projecting the leader of that party as a non Indian citizen.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe King:
It seems as if the main issue here is trust - people don't trust a foreigner (or person perceived as being a foreigner) to not have some hidden loyalty to their country of origin, even if they have gone through all the process of swearing loyalty to their new country, and even discarding their old nationality.[/QB]

With the history in perspective, it is only appropriate that Indians be extremely cautious about any foreigner/naturalized citizen vying for the top spot. You have to keep in mind that India has been free for only the last 50 odd years, prior to which it has been under foreign rule for 800 years.

[Arjun Shastry]

Things have changed in last 800 years!!One person ,no matter how many statutary powers he holds,can not do anything without other's help.These 'others' should be honest in their duty and work .History shows that problems occur when these 'others' don't do their duty for the sake of some money or anything.

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


With the history in perspective, it is only appropriate that Indians be extremely cautious about any foreigner/naturalized citizen vying for the top spot. You have to keep in mind that India has been free for only the last 50 odd years, prior to which it has been under foreign rule for 800 years.

If so,the first one should step out from india is brahmins.They are the real invaders of our country.And these are the greedy people who did all the hell.I am not discribing all.Brahmins does'nt have any right to live in india by your above standpoint.And whereever they go,they made lots of probloms becoz they need a lot of right by means of birth.they think that the universe is made for brahmins.and all other people are just for serving them.They are the people who thinking only about their comfort by others cost,even by killing lowcaste as ease as killing a cat.They can think like that,and they did that also for thousands of years,but it's something difficult to implement now becoz people are civilizing.

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
...

Sad to see this thread's quality deteriorating to a level now, certain posters are posting pure rhetoric, stating opinions with out providing supporting evidence, not being nice, and do not even care to make their post readable by using proper punctuations.

Lets calm it down a bit and hope this thread would survive a little longer.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
If so,the first one should step out from india is brahmins.

hahahahahhahaahahaah

Mera Bharat Mahan ..

we cant think above than Brahmin ;-)

Chalo guys.. time to be out and have break.

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


hahahahahhahaahahaah

Mera Bharat Mahan ..

we cant think above than Brahmin ;-)

Chalo guys.. time to be out and have break.

Hahahahaha ....

I am not understanding the logic of invaders blaming foreigners.!!.

I am not understanding the logic who says about suppression of thousands of years back,by even now suppressing a mass community.I am not understanding the logic of who do suppression openly complaing about illusionary suppression happened in thousands of years back.

good answer expected.

[Ashok Mash]

::: disgusted by the unprofessional, out-of-place posts by other Indians! ::: :roll:

Well, it isn�t going to be easy for Sonia Gandhi either, to be honest! There�s a lot hate mail going around (just received a fourth one since this morning)! Lets hope it all works well for us all.

For now, about the Sensex crashing and all that, my word of advice � �Buy now�. This is the golden chance for the armature investors among us, as its bound for a upward swing once this panic selling is over!

[Murasoli Maran]

I am asking a very straightforward questien.If anything wrong in my questien,point that.i like somebody answer me without deceptive arguments.



I am not understanding the logic of invaders blaming foreigners.!!.

I am not understanding the logic who says about suppression of thousands of years back,by even now suppressing a mass community.I am not understanding the logic of who do suppression openly complaing about illusionary suppression happened in thousands of years back.

good answer expected.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:

Well, it isn’t going to be easy for Sonia Gandhi either, to be honest! There’s a lot hate mail going around (just received a fourth one since this morning)! Lets hope it all works well for us all.

Let me search the reply for such mail.. I replied to my group .. hope it will be there ....

yes got it ..


Read inline for answers to her questions.

T & R
R K Singh


This is some information on the prospective PM of
India - Sonia Gandhi that every Indian and at least
every India lover must know.
1.. Sonia Gandhi is ONLY a high school graduate. It
is not even sure if she is Matric pass or fail.
Cambridge University has
confirmed that they have no Sonia Maino on their
alumni list.

>>From when, we Indian become obsessed abt education
of MPs. Just check how many MPs have education and
what kind of education(robbery, murder etc),


2.. Her sister, Nadia Maino, who had never visited
India before rushed to New Delhi, after Vajpayee
govt.fell, to be by her
side amidst reports that she might soon become
India's Prime Minister.

>> Would you not fly to congratulate your bro if he
becomes governor of LA.

3.. Should Sonia Gandhi become Prime Minister, her
relatives in Italy
would be fully entitled to round-the-clock
protection
by the Black Cat
commandos at the Indian taxpayer's expense.

>> Its better than to provide security to murderers
and rowdies and corrupt MPs.


4.. She worked as an house maid in UK while taking
classes to learn English in some no name school. She
was from a poor
family in Italy but now has almost as much money as
Bill Gates (guess
whose money is it).

>> So a maid does not have a right to hold a high
post ?
What's Nithya's point by telling this ??

5.. During the 1971 war, while all Indians stood
ready
to fight for the
Indian cause Sonia Maino and her husband Rajiv
Gandhi
went on vacation
in Italy.

>> What were our fathers doing at that time ??


6.. In 1977, when Indira Gandhi and Congress lost
elections, Sonia Gandhi with her children and husband
in tow took
refuge of Italian embassy in New Delhi. Only after
Indira Gandhi,
Sanjay and his Indian wife Maneka convinced her that
they came back.

>> Whats wrong in that, at that time her duty was to
protect her family first.

7.. Sonia married Rajiv in 1968 and was eligible to
become Indian
citizen 5 years later yet she did NOT become Indian
citizen till 1984
I.e. 16 years after her marriage) This late bloom of
Sonia's love for
India also was out of political consideration. In
1984, Rajiv, was heir
apparent and most likely next Prime Minister. It
would
be awkward for a
PM to have a foreigner wife. Voila, Sonia became an
Indian Overnight.

>> So you know NOW that she was NOT interested in
Indian politics at all
till it was given, or should I say, imposed to her.


8.. She has not given a single interview or offered
any ideas on a single issue facing India now. Her
only
qualification is that she married a Gandhi. No
newspaper has taken up the
issue; no political party is opposing this, people
are falling in line
as if this is nothing unusual.

>> Am I suppose to laugh.....
>> She speaks better than Raja Bhaiya or Laloo
atleast. OR you want her also to speak non-sense to be
just in news.


9.. Sonia became an Indian citizen in 1984 but did
not surrender her Italian citizenship. She continues
to be
simultaneously a citizen of India and Italy as
Italian law does not require her
to surrender her Italian citizenship or passport.
Simply put, Sonia
is a dual citizen of India and Italy now dreaming of
becoming the next
Prime Minister of India (she can also legally become
the prime
minister of Italy!).

>> Any reason why she should surrender her
citizenship.
>> Even India now offers dual citizenship ??
>> Do you want to remove dual citizenship in India
also and in turn investment of NRIs


Do you think a citizen of such doubtful credentials
should be given such a coveted position like the PM
ship?? Please awaken the dead souls of the nation
and make them stop this. Sonia Gandhi is not FIT to
be a
PM. Whether it is Italy or India. Please show us the
power of the media.
We sincerely believe that you would be kind enough
to help us.

>> Whats your problem Miss/Mr. ??

Regards

Nithya

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Sad to see this thread's quality deteriorating to a level now, certain posters are posting pure rhetoric, stating opinions with out providing supporting evidence, not being nice, and do not even care to make their post readable by using proper punctuations.
Lets calm it down a bit and hope this thread would survive a little longer.

Thank you, Ashok.

Murasoli, please don't post provocative messages, or we will have to close this thread.

[Mark Fletcher]

I dont know what you guys are all complaining about, it could be worse, what if it was George Bush or Tony Blair?

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Mark Fletcher:
George Bush or Tony Blair?

Actually, it would make little or no difference. GWB, Tony Blair and Sonia are all foreigners and not Indians. So the point of conflict would remain the same. Actually, it might be a little better with the other two because you know what each of them stand for. No one has any idea what Sonia plans to do or what she is capable of.

[Mapraputa Is]

One Iraqi woman has an interesting idea. Since Iraq is governed by the US, it would be fair if Iraqis were allowed to vote in US president elections.

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Mark Fletcher:
I dont know what you guys are all complaining about, it could be worse, what if it was George Bush or Tony Blair?

Good point!

I doubt if Sonia could ever be as �good� as Bush or Blair. After all, she never got into a cheer leading group while in college, never got caught drink driving, or never tries too hard to convince the opposition and her party about how important it is to support their special allies about WMD and war-on-terror!

I guess she is harmless, err., relatively!

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:



Murasoli, please don't post provocative messages, or we will have to close this thread.

Maputra,I am just saying a truth.Brahmins are really invaders.it's not a false statement.I dont want to hurt anybody.If it's hurting to someone,it's far less than others suffered by them.And if i am wrong,why cant they answer me?.I cannot understand it.It's sure that they cannot tolerate with Sonia's leadership becoz of the forign origin reason.And moreover they are killing thousands of people by saying about the suppression.If they can kill,cant i ask to them the reason and logic of killing?.

I am an indian.and i know the suffering,the suppression.and by knowing the suppression,i am seeing this deception.can i tolerate?.
[ May 18, 2004: Message edited by: Murasoli Maran ]

[Mohan Panigrahi]

Why I am disturbed

[Thomas Paul]

Couple of thoughts:

Rudyard Kipling was born in India. Do you think that would have made him more qualified to be PM of India?

Low voter turnout in the US does not always mean apathy. For example, there is virtually no chance of GWB winning in NY state so a vote for him from a NYer is pointless. If he does by some chance win NY then he will be so far ahead that voting for him is unnecessary. So since Kerry is guaranteed to win NY there really is no point to vote in the presidential election no matter what party you are a member of if you live in NY.

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
...

Murasoli,

If I may answer your question, Map�s point in there is that we need to cut down on questions that are provocative. Your point (Brahmin�s/Caste system etc) may be a point that deserves its own thread, but I am sure you will agree there�s no real connection between �invasions� of the medieval period with that of the world that we are all living today!! Also, your point gets more credibility if you post a supporting link or document (you might have to pin-point an incident using media reports, or if its not one incident, but a bad system over a period of time, a study or a paper published by some respected sources analysing the issue) from the Internet or elsewhere. Anything else, the �frag-happy� moderators here will frag your post and this thread to oblivion, with out with out an explanation!

I am not a Brahmin myself, and am not aware of the so-called �Brahmin� deeds either � I was never seen negative discrimination based on caste system, in Kerala (can�t speak for all of India though). Now, have they done anything in the past? I do not know, but its clear as day that its not something that you can really relate to this topic. In fact, I share the same idea as yours, Sonia-bashing, purely based on her foreign origin is as sick as accusing one for his religion, cast etc!

Cheers,

Ashok.

[Murasoli Maran]

I am not getting any reply for my doubts.So i am posting again.Somebody please clarify my doubts with straght and true arguments.


I am not understanding the logic of invaders blaming foreign origin.!!.

I am not understanding the logic who says about suppression of thousands of years back,by even now suppressing a mass community.I am not understanding the logic of who do suppression openly and madly complaing about illusionary suppression happened in thousands of years back.

good answer expected.

[Murasoli Maran]

but I am sure you will agree there�s no real connection between �invasions� of the medieval period with that of the world that we are all living today!!

They(Uppercaste forces) says that mughals are invaders.when they came to india?.And they are saying that mughals did suppression.Why sangh parivar demolished babri masjid?.what is the reason?.they told that Baber is invaded the Ram janm bhumi.all indians knows that.what i am asking is,thse uppercaste folks who says about invading is the real invaders.And nobody made as much harm as this 'original' invaders.I'll tell you details if you want.

These people made some special ideologies to suppress indians and they made indians as slaves of them.and i am not describing the amount of suppression.

And if you need web pages saying about upper caste suppression over lowcaste,i'll giv u.and i know that you also seen india and there is no need of it.all indians knows it as sunlight.

And now these people says what?.they says about the suppression made by muslim kings.And what i am asking is,

I am not understanding the logic who says about suppression of thousands of years back,by even now suppressing a mass community.I am not understanding the logic of who do suppression openly and madly complaing about illusionary suppression happened in thousands of years back.


This all to be discussed in this thread itself.becoz it's a thread complaining about forign origin.and i wanna know what is the forign origin means.

[Ashok Mash]

Reading your post gives me an impression that you are expecting some of us Ranchers to answer for the actions of "" them "" - as you put it, the "upper class people".

Well, I've been hanging out hear for a couple of years, and I can proudly tell you, I haven't come across anyone here with a 'cast'-sense, and no one is going to answer your question on behalf of the ""them"". However, I most of the Indian ranchers that I have come across are passionate about Java and among other things, their country. They either hate it (for many reasons, including some you mentioned), or they love it. Because of that sense of a nation, and because it relevant here today, they are debating away about non-Indian origins of Sonia.

And oh, thanks, but no thanks, I wouldn't need any links about cast/invalsions of the past, as I couldn't be bothered to dig dirt when rest of the world is busy progressing!

Peace!

Ashok.

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:



And oh, thanks, but no thanks, I wouldn't need any links about cast/invalsions of the past, as I couldn't be bothered to dig dirt when rest of the world is busy progressing!

Peace!

Ashok.

So you know the untouchablity and suppression.Why india is having a Dr:Ambedkar?.What was india before 20-30 years ago?.And how many centuries the mad suppression lasted?.What was the extend of madness?.And what you think about 'untouhables' and 'unsawables'?.And even now there is a lot of discrimination happening.I'll giv u clippings if u need "proof".

And the saddest thing is these inhumen community is saying about invasion and suppression.These folks are saying mughals and christiens suppressed them.This is the extreame of deception.This is what i cant tolerate with.These people are teaching stories for injecting communal tension in people to divide to get past glorious comfort.These people are killing muslims and christiens by the means of their past invasion.

This i cant tolerate.If this people goes on like this,and not learning the humen rights and charector to live calmly and peacefully with other communites and castes,They will be tought charector by 'Original' indians.

Still my questien unanswered.

[Arjun Shastry]

Lets talk about Sonia becoming PM.)President has invited Sonia for talks.Now its 99.999% clear that she will be sworn in as next Prime minister!!!.Generally PM keeps following ministries under him/her depending on his/her skills.
1)Ministry of Planning
2)Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation
3)Department of Atomic Energy
4)Dpartment of Space
5)Ministry of Finance
6)some times Home ministry also..
Considering the current scenario,Finance will be given to somebody else.Sonia will lead other ministries.

who maintains this site? .

[Murasoli Maran]

I think Mr Paul Mckenna will clarify my doubts.And if anything wrong in my doubts,i think Mr Paul Mckenna will point that also.

I am posting my doubts again if you dont read the above.


I am not understanding the logic of invaders blaming foreign origin.!!.

I am not understanding the logic who says about suppression of thousands of years back,by even now suppressing a mass community.I am not understanding the logic of who do suppression openly and madly complaining about illusionary suppression happened in thousands of years back.

[Murasoli Maran]

It took a very lot of time after i am asking this questien.I know it take a sometime to setup a reason for my doubts.but anyhow i like to listen that answer.It's a very basic questien.Give a straightforward and genuine answer.

[Arjun Shastry]

Mura,Can you post the questions with clarity,I mean at the end of sentence with question mark?

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:
Mura,Can you post the questions with clarity,I mean at the end of sentence with question mark?

I am asking for the logic.I can ask it with a questien mark.but this form is better.I have communicated my doubt very clearly.

[Arjun Shastry]

who is supressing whom? and where? Are you talking about clashes in villages between uper cast and lower cast?right?But can the whole community be blamed for that foolishness?and can we define what is meant by upper cast?Are they just Bramhins? Rajput?Maratha?Or is it some imaginary force which does that supression?Yadav's in Bihar supress Dalits there,so should Laloo and others should move out?

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:
who is supressing whom? and where? Are you talking about clashes in villages between uper cast and lower cast?right?But can the whole community be blamed for that foolishness?and can we define what is meant by upper cast?Are they just Bramhins? Rajput?Maratha?Or is it some imaginary force which does that supression?Yadav's in Bihar supress Dalits there,so should Laloo and others should move out?

Even now suppression happens in indian villages.and before 10-20 years it was very clear in every society.there was people who concidered as untouchables.and unsawables.It's a rule that once an uppercaste see a lowcaste,they should bath.and there was a lot of discrimination and it was very very brutal.I think there is no need od describing it all.These uppercast's brutaly and cruely suppressed indians.that's a truth as sunlight.

And the reason behind sangh parivar riots now is mughal suppression and christian suppression.They are spreading that message that was with stories of suppression.so i am asking,

Even they do suppress a lot of people in india a lot of time and till not stopped the brutal suppression in many areas in india,why and how they talk about mughal supression and make riots by the means of that?.

Most of the uppercaste enjoyed the fruits of suppression in a long time.and the ideology behind it was made by brahmins.Who were actually invaders of our country.so i need a the logic of my doubt.that i am again poining here.
[ May 18, 2004: Message edited by: Murasoli Maran ]

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:
But can the whole community be blamed for that foolishness?.

Now there is a communal based isolation spread by BJP and and many riots happened in VHP-BJP's growth period.Behind all these riots the reason was some suppression.So it's having a vital importance to know the ideology of suppression and basis of communal division which made by the VHP-BJP-Sangh parivar.

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:
who is supressing whom? and where? Are you talking about clashes in villages between uper cast and lower cast?right?But can the whole community be blamed for that foolishness?and can we define what is meant by upper cast?Are they just Bramhins? Rajput?Maratha?Or is it some imaginary force which does that supression?Yadav's in Bihar supress Dalits there,so should Laloo and others should move out?

I wholeheartedly agree with what RAD AKA Cap is saying. Besides, why try to provoke an irrational reaction when original topic has nothing to do with it.

As for the original topic, isn't Sonia better than having someone like Laloo or Mulayam? Personally, I would be ashamed if Laoo swears as the PM someday. (But you never know, anything's possible!) Personally, I don't think congress can do any substantial change but then BJP is no good either, especially with alliances like Shivsena BJP (IMHO) is more avoidable.

I find this whole issue rather insignificant (for lack of better word). Can't we all ask party/candidate to deal with some significant issues such as making INR stronger (say give a pragmatic goal that 1 USD < 40 INR or similar); or making sure PEPSI doesn't suck all the water without restrictions (Leher PEPSI as it was known earlier promised a lot when they entered, most of it, which would have benefited native ppl; was never delivered). Lots of Indian business, industries are dying because of globalization and with giant MNCs with deep pockets. I would be much happier if parties/candidates could rather focus on these issues and we can have debate on supporting them with our arguments based on these issues.

Contry of origin? Ram Mandir??? Come on!!!

Anyway, just my thoughts...

- Manish

[Ashok Mash]

Your post is still quite incomprehensible, however, I think I vaguely have an idea of your point � please correct me if I understood it wrong.

These uppercast's brutaly and cruely suppressed indians.

Well, now that�s Indians brutally and cruelly suppressing Indians. I don�t see an external involved there. The upper cast / lower cast problems that�s been on for centuries are something that us Indians devised, and us Indians have the collective responsibility for running it and for putting up with it. And thankfully, cast-system is a history in certain parts of India, and less so significant in most of the parts. There are certain black spots in the country, where poverty and illiteracy keeps them away from the developments around the country. We will get there, sooner or later.

sangh parivar riots now is mughal suppression and christian suppression.

No one here would vouch for Sangh Parivar, or their actions. And technically, Sangh Parivar is a �all upper cast� set up. And, most importantly, I don�t see how that is connected to this thread, as we are discussing technicality (and sentiments) of an individual (not a invading force, cast, religious group � just an single woman) with foreign origin holding the top office in India.

Who were actually invaders of our country.

Something tells me you are talking about the arya invasions to a dravida land. Not only that its far from what this tread is about, its so ancient, its absolutely insignificant to any discussion, except for the cheap politicians of south who uses �language sentiments� among cast/group card to win votes.

[Murasoli Maran]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:


I wholeheartedly agree with what RAD AKA Cap is saying. Besides, why try to provoke an irrational reaction when original topic has nothing to do with it.

Where is the provocation?.There is no provocation on my doubt.If there is any provocation,it can be pointed.

I am asking the reason of the riots happened in india.A very lot of people suffering in india by this.A lot of people supressed for centuries.i am asking the reason of that.i am asking the logic.and i am also asking the logic of complaint about about suppression by the people who done the most brutal suppression in the world.