Gore Calls for Rumsfeld, Rice and Tenet to Resign

[ChanSan Mehbubani]

I think extremists on both the sides need to cool down a little to find a way through dialog.Only then we can achieve peace.Ite fruitless to count how many on 'your'side celebrated this and that.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Truthfully, that is the general position of most Americans no matter what Max may think. Every poll shows that the US supports Israel because we see Israel as a friend and ally...

Truthfully, Thomas is speaking for himself here, and expressing his own opinion. That is, while I share his opinion that most Americans support the Israeli people and their right to live without violence, it's not at all clear that most Americans support Likud or the hardline measures.

Even if there are polls that say one thing or another, polls can't be trusted, and most anyone who's studied even the rudiments of statistics knows this.

It's a complicated issue, and most everyone has an opinion they want you think is the truth. My advice is to ignore all the people who are telling what you see around you, and just take a look around you.

M
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[John Smith]

Max: My advice is to ignore all the people who are telling what you see around you, and just take a look around you.

I second that. As much as it is hard to resist the peer pressure of how to think, that's the only way to grow up.

[John Dunn]

EK: As much as it is hard to resist the peer pressure of how to think...

speak for yourself

When you're done looking around, check it out: What you really want.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by John Dunn:
EK: As much as it is hard to resist the peer pressure of how to think...

speak for yourself

When you're done looking around, check it out: What you really want.[/URL]

I'm tempted to move this last bit to blatant advertising, but I'll refrain and offer up an alternative instead. It's interesting that the Bush campaign is using .Net technology: it's not well thought out, you know

M
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Max: Most Americans don't know any Iraqis, and can't begin to see the Iraqi perspective.

Salam Pax
"Riverbend"
Ihath -- she isn't a "typical" Iraqi as I can tell, she lives in Canada, but she's good. Here is some background information.
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Tom: Perhaps if the Palestinians tried to stop these suicide bombings Americans would feel more sympathy towards the Palestinians.

"You may call us terrorists, you may tell us that we should resist the occupation in peaceful ways, you may tell us that the terrorism is killing innocent civilians. And you are right. Yes! if we were a truly enlightened group of people then yes, we would accept our harsh fate, we would watch the occupier kill our children and we would say, may god forgive you. We would pray day and night hoping that god would deliver us from this hardship. We would sit around hoping that the messiah would come and help to liberate us. Unfortunately, we are not enlightened. We are just average people born in desperate times.

You may call us terrorists and we understand, we forgive you because you haven't tasted the bitterness of living under occupation."
http://www.ihath.com/2004/05/losing-enlightenment.html
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Max: Even if there are polls that say one thing or another, polls can't be trusted, and most anyone who's studied even the rudiments of statistics knows this.

I did study some statistics, but it isn't clear to me why polls cannot be trusted. Could you explain? Maybe we need to start another thread for this... I mean polls are polls, of course but what is the better way to learn your compatriots opinion?

[John Smith]

Originally posted by John Dunn:
[QBWhen you're done looking around, check it out: What you really want.[/QB]

He looks pretty slick in those ads -- must be before he fell from his bicycle.

[John Dunn]

must be before he fell from his bicycle.
He's actually a very good athlete. Both [jk & g-dub] are good athletes. If you've every been mountain biking, you'd know, that falling goes with the terrain. (pun very much intended). Bush runs a 6:45 mile, so there was a problem finding Secret Service men to run with him. (take a look at what an AVERAGE time would be in decent marathon.) Rumor has it that the Secret Service dudes are hanging out on the bikes in their gym to get in shape. [mh-political side-swipe removed. Be nice]

M
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Max: Even if there are polls that say one thing or another, polls can't be trusted, and most anyone who's studied even the rudiments of statistics knows this.

I did study some statistics, but it isn't clear to me why polls cannot be trusted. Could you explain? Maybe we need to start another thread for this... I mean polls are polls, of course but what is the better way to learn your compatriots opinion?

Polls demonstrate correlative, not causative, relationships. Consider the various ways in which phrasing can affect the answer to a question, the discrepancies over what a 'sample population' is, the non-impartial nature of the people conducting the polls, different interperations of the means on polls: no, polls aren't a worthwhile measure of reality. Much better, IMO, to observe to world around you.

M

[John Dunn]

I agree with MI: (not Military Intelligence...) that you can learn alot from polls!! Da** good proof

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by John Dunn:
must be before he fell from his bicycle.
Bush runs a 6:45 mile


That's very impressive: Can you point me to a source?

M

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by John Dunn:
I agree with MI: (not Military Intelligence...) that you can learn alot from polls!! Da** good proof

I believe you're supporting points you don't mean to.

M

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
You may call us terrorists and we understand, we forgive you because you haven't tasted the bitterness of living under occupation."
http://www.ihath.com/2004/05/losing-enlightenment.html

You have to love it. The murderer complains that he is suffering in prison so we should feel sorry for him. The Palestinian terrorists have been terrorizing the world for 40 years[even more inflamatory material removed: this sort of post just invites chaos from people with a different prespective on history-MH].

Let's keep the drumbeats down to a dull roar, shall we?

M
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Paul McKenna]

Max,

Tell me.. which country are you originally from or were your parents originally from. And if I may get a little more personal.. being a shiite / sunni (you choose) what is your opinion of a Sunni / Shiite president for Iraq.

[Mapraputa Is]

"Perhaps we don't believe in God as much as we proclaim we do. Jesus would agree with you he too would say take a peaceful and a rational path. He would tell us to love our enemy the way we love ourselves. but then Jesus would come and reside with us, hold our hand and share in our misery. Buddha would agree with Jesus too, he too would say revenge will destroy you in the end. He would tell us that peace comes from the inside, but then Buddha would not preach from a distance, he would come and show us how it is done."

This is what I think too. If you want to teach Palestinians how they should behave, first go and live with them. if you don't... Well, sorry.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Max,

Tell me.. which country are you originally from or were your parents originally from. And if I may get a little more personal.. being a shiite / sunni (you choose) what is your opinion of a Sunni / Shiite president for Iraq.

I'm not sure how this is relevant: it would probably be as inappropriate to ask you some of your own personal details.

But I'll answer anyway: I'm an American, my ethnic background is Persian, I'm a born again evangelical atheist, and my hobby is bare knuckle fist-fighting.

Oh, and I'm an Aries.

My opinion on the president? How should I know? I'm not a political creature, I just like to see fair play and reasoned discussion. If s/he has the best interests of the Iraqi people @ heart, it's probably a good start.

M
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Jason Menard]

Interesting... I hadn't realized that the events surrounding the 1972 Olympics and Leon Klinghoffer were open to historical interpretation.

[Max Habibi]

That may, indeed, be part of the problem.

For every murder on one side, there are a dozen that the other side will point to as justification: that is an ugly exchange that spirals into a cesspool, and has no place here. In the interest of fairness, and in the interest of keeping this topic open, we're not going to have that sort of ugliness on this forum.

All best,
M

[Jim Yingst]

Could we get a bit more context supplied here? E.g., who exactly are you guys quoting, or responding to?

Map: you're evidently quoting from ihath's blog, but that wasn't clear initallally. Perhaps a few lines of context would have been appropriate.

Jason, Max: who are you responding to, exactly? ?

I suppose I could guess about this sort of thing, but I think you guys are making it harder than it needs to be.

(N.B I'm referring to Jason and Max's last posts before ths in this thread. For others, the context is more clear.)

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Jason, Max: who are you responding to, exactly? ?

I was commenting on a post of Tom's that had made reference to historical events (the 1972 Olympics and the Achille Lauro among others) which had subsequently been deleted (the references to historical events, not the entire post), which I guess would cause confusion if you hadn't seen the post before it was edited. My apologies.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:
I'm not sure how this is relevant: it would probably be as inappropriate to ask you [some of your own personal details (EJFH)].

Max's opinions do seem more rational and practical and for some reason I had it stuck in my head that he was a muslim (now I know he is not!). I was just curious to know which part of the Islamic world he was from so that I could research and see if muslims from that part of the world were all just as rational in their thought. Frankly, I was expecting Max to say he was of Turkish ethnicity.. but anyway it doesnt matter now.

I dont think I've ever hidden the fact that I am an Indian and a Hindu Brahmin.. so I didnt think MH would find the questions inappropriate. Still, I left it open ended for him to ignore if he chose to.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Could we get a bit more context supplied here? E.g., who exactly are you guys quoting, or responding to?

Map: you're evidently quoting from ihath's blog, but that wasn't clear initallally. Perhaps a few lines of context would have been appropriate.

Jason, Max: who are you responding to, exactly? ?

I suppose I could guess about this sort of thing, but I think you guys are making it harder than it needs to be.

(N.B I'm referring to Jason and Max's last posts before ths in this thread. For others, the context is more clear.)

I deleted the parts of the post that seemed inflammatory in term of who rejected what, and when, and accusations of brutality that seemed would solicit counter-accusations, which leads to bad place. The original message is winging it's way to you as we speak.

M

[John Smith]

Am I the only one who finds this thing hysterically funny? Every other post is edited or deleted, and now no one remembers who deleted which part and why. Dangling pointers and Karma all over the place.

[ EJFH: Corrected spelling. ]
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Ernest Friedman-Hill ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Jim: Map: you're evidently quoting from ihath's blog, but that wasn't clear initallally. Perhaps a few lines of context would have been appropriate.

You are right. I thought it was clear enough, but maybe not. I will provide URLs from now on.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Am I the only one who finds this thing histerically funny? Every other post is edited or deleted, and now no one remembers who deleted which part and why. Dangling pointers and Karma all over the place.

It would have been funnier if you had found it historically funny

[John Smith]

Persians!

[Max Habibi]

Well, we do have the best caviar, and we play chess pretty well

M

[Mapraputa Is]

Well, we do have the best caviar, and we play chess pretty well

WHAT??? Could somebody please edit Max's post?

[Mapraputa Is]

PM: I dont think I've ever hidden the fact that I am an Indian and a Hindu Brahmin.. so I didnt think MH would find the questions inappropriate.

When you ask this kind of questions, there is always a possibility somebody will make profound conclusions from what you reveal. Sometimes you don't want to fit into somebody's sets of preconceptions.

[John Smith]

Never though about it, but I looked it up, and indeed -- Iranian's beluga caviar is on par with the Russian. Since I left Russia on a hostile note, I'll have to ask your relatives, Max, to ship me a few ounces. I can trade in my chess books. Maybe even go there and preach atheism on your behalf.

[Mapraputa Is]

I learnt to play chess when I was 6! And what do Persians understand in caviar anyway?

[John Smith]

Poll question for vegetarians: what's more inhumane -- to eat the future offspring of a fish or that of a chicken?

[Bert Bates]

I've heard of chess, it's that strange game where the pieces move, and it's simple enough for computers

[Michael Ernest]

jd: Bush runs a 6:45 mile, so there was a problem finding Secret Service men to run with him. (take a look at what an AVERAGE time would be in decent marathon.) Rumor has it that the Secret Service dudes are hanging out on the bikes in their gym to get in shape.

If we can't find people for the Secret Service who can keep a 6:45 pace, we're in big trouble. Two miles in 13:30, that's credible stamina. At 40 years old and a little desk weight from all this paper-pushing, though, I can cover three miles under 20 minutes. I sure wouldn't want to be relying on anyone covering me who struggles to keep up with that.

Sounds to me like Bush's publicists are getting into some easily debatable myth-building.

[Billy Tsai]

The democratic nominee for the Presidency of the United States of America can not and must not win the 2004 election because the freedom and the future of the world depends on this, John Kerry has publically stated he is willing to give up on free and democratic countries in the world to the communists dictator regimes and his policies is the unification of free nations into totoally undemocratic communist regimes which are also the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world. He would not help any innocently free and democratic nations if they are been attacked or invaded by communist regimes.

[Michael Ernest]

I doubt he actually said that, but I'm happy to consider any source that directly quotes him on the subject.

[Arjun Shastry]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Poll question for vegetarians: what's more inhumane -- to eat the future offspring of a fish or that of a chicken?

What type of fish are you talking about? Bombay duck? or whale? and what typeof chicken? brioler or country one?

[Joe King]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Pretty much for the same reason, US lets UK, China, Russia, India and Pakistan keep their nuclear missiles

I'd like to see some one try to take nukes from Russia or China!

US: Hand over the weapons!
Large powerful state: Er... no. What are you going to do about it?