Indian arranged marriages

[Tina Desai]

Originally posted by Gerald Davis:


Maybe things are the way they are because of good reason. The success of Indains in Briton is down to Indian culture and Arranged Marrage is one of them. Change one thing about that culture could have implicaton alseware.

Unless we can understand aranged marrages scientifically, messing with a thousand year old tredition for the interest of fareness is foolhardy.

Well said. Highly appreciate the thinking.
Surprisingly or unfortunately, it does not come from an Indian.

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
. Those ranchers who had successful arranged marriages till now,what are the questions should be asked to prospective spouse?I can not think more than 10 questions which mainly sound similar to final interview by Manager in a company. .
For those who are not much familiar with arranged marriages in India:
After horoscope match(See the horoscope thread by Helen Thomas),either of family goes to another one.After that it generally goes like this:
1)Introduce each other with family members.
2)"Boy" and "girl" face the questions from opposite sides.These questions are generally rudimentary in nature like :"where do you work?",Where do you stay?,eating habbits,future plans etc.
3) Somebody from either side suggest "boy" and "girl" can discuss privately if they want.
4)"Boy" and "girl" ask series of questions/views etc to each other.
5)Guests depart and request the hosts the know their opinion in a week or so.
6)"Girl" and "Boy" discuss with their family and then decide whether to "go ahead" or stop there itself by responding "Views don't match" by calling other side.
7)If both agree to goahead,another interview can be conducted if either side wishes.If no need,then discussion on how to goahead for marriage starts.These include,financial expenditure to be incurred by either side,venue of marriage etc.
IMO,deciding the life partner in 45-90 minutes is little difficult.But reality is you have to or you can go for love marriage which are also now common.
So what are the questions that should be asked?

Don�t you think one important aspect of Indian arranged marriages is missing here �buddy !

What else �dowry haggles !!!

Father of the would be Groom: our son is working in US, earning $XXX, we have spent so much on his education �how much are you willing to give.

Father of the would be Bride: well, our daughter is also educated, she is beautiful and she can also work � anyway I can give Rs XXXX in cash and Rs XXX worth gold � thats all I can do as a Govt employee.

Mother of the would be Groom: what rubbish, that s far too below our cast standards, in our family even a disabled person would get more than that.

Mother of the would be Bride: son why don�t you say something � you both like each other �don�t you.

would be Groom : yes I do, but I don�t like to go against my parents wishes � thats not our family tradition. However, I can arrange for a loan � I think this house could easily fetch Rs XXXX.

would be Bride : mother dial 100 !!!

.....jw

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by john wesley:
Don�t you think one important aspect of Indian arranged marriages is missing here �buddy !

Oh dear John... you missed lot of other 'more' important aspects like caste, Gotra, Rashi, horoscope .. after all these hurdles dowry comes into the picture.

If dowry is "not demanded" then I think it is a very important part of Indian economy system.
Govt. does not have to appeal everyone to spend money on weekends.

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Tina Desai:

Did I say that?
Did I say that dowery is OK?
Are you implying that Im against change?

I feel those young people who hate arranged marriages very very much, and finds the foreign ways more, should first consider doing his/her education on his/her own. Fair enough??

Ooops, I meant to say - Do you think that as long as somebody pays for her education, it is fair for her to hate arranged marriages?
slip of fingers!

And , since you appeared to be so strongly in favour of the 'Indian' system of marriage, the rest were just the questions I asked.
But on reading your post again more carefully, I see that what you are saying is that love marriages (in India) are not all that different from the arranged marriages, with all the same shit (dowry etc.) still happening. So, I suppose those are non-questions. Shoulda read it more carefully.

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by K Varun:


I agree

Varun, Are you married ? You could add you your experince here,

[john wesley]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


Oh dear John... you missed lot of other 'more' important aspects like caste, Gotra, Rashi, horoscope .. after all these hurdles dowry comes into the picture.

If dowry is "not demanded" then I think it is a very important part of Indian economy system.
Govt. does not have to appeal everyone to spend money on weekends.

Oh come on buddy �you think Gotra, Rashi, horoscope are as important as Dowry ???. these cottage industries are just to keep aging Brahmins busy. The modern day Indian does not care for these irritation superstitions, when the price is right he goes for it .

.....jw
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: john wesley ]

[Manmohan Singhania]

If dowry is given without much fuss,whats the problem? .Finally it will be used by couple for betterment of their life.If girl is rich and parents have loads of money but groom does not have much,whats wrong in giving couple few golden bangles,car etc?
Think you are father of 2 girls.and have enough money.You want to give it charitable trust or give it to daughter for her better life? . ?
john wesley,are you love child of John Wiley and Addison Wesley?

[Dave Lenton]

Originally posted by Leena Diwan:


No. It does not happen this way.

Parents are involved in a decision process. But they do not force whom you should marry.

Not too difficult for me to explain really. which parent will want a bad person in his/her child't life?

Though at ANY given moment there are ALL sorts of people existing in a country, as they DO in any other country, there might be a very few exceptions.
But parents don't marry off their children till the child also agrees it a good match and he/she is interested.

One question - if due to the kind of society, you let your parents spend on you till you are 22(might be 24), and due to the same soceity, they HAVE to (not interested in) be involved in your marriage process, what would you do?
Mind well, Im asking you a question of a soceity where if you tell your parents to back off from your marital discussions, you are insulting them.

Could it be possible that there are situations where people feel pressured by society and family to accept their parents' decision, even if they do not feel comfortable with it? Even though a person may be theoretically free to turn down a marriage recommendation, they may not want to do so if they feel that people will think less of them because of it. While it may hurt the parents to turn down an arranged marriage, should a person spend their life in an unhappy marital situation just to please their parents?

There was a time when this kind of situation happened in the west as well - people were often pressured to marry into the same social class, and arranged marriages (particularly among the wealthy) were common. Eventually this trend faded in the west, but perhaps this was because of a cultural tie to the practice that was not as strong as the cultural tie in India.

I'm personally glad this practice did fade away here. While I value the opinion of my parents, and am very grateful for the upbringing and financial assistance they have given me, should I choose to spend the rest of my life living with someone I would not make that choice based upon their recommendation. I want the choice of life partner to be based upon things like friendship, character compatibility, and yes, love.... not upon social pressure and how well our families get on. Marriage, to me, is about how well two people connect and work together, not about how two families get on. If my marriage was arranged to please two families, I may feel slightly used by them.

Although I must repeat - I say this from a western point of view, and I have little exposure to Indian culture and find some aspects of it hard to understand. Hopefully threads like this, with contributions from people around the world, can help us to better understand each other. Isn't it great how different we all are!

[Arjun Shastry]

Till now many people have now written about "understanding","care","love" etc What about physical attributes?Don't they influence the above attributes? . Honestly I can't fell in love with a girl whose face I don't like evventhough she may be caring /love etc etc.I hope same is true for many people(men and women).
Remember that in arranged marriages too,this attribute is of prime consideration.Its not that,if cast/region is same,fincially both sides are equal,then everything moves smoothly.But people don't explicitly discuss this factor as discussing it really looks bad and arrogant.
So now there doesn't seem to be much difference between love marriage and arranged marriage. In arranged marriages,following things are generally followed:
1)bride.AGE <= groom.AGE
2)bride.EDUCATION_LEVEL<= groom.EDUCATION_LEVEL
3)bride.parents.WELATH comparable with groom.parents.WEALTH
In love marriages definitely,first two factors won't play that big role.Third factor might not play much role but I have not seen much cases where either side is very rich where as otherside is poor.
[ February 14, 2005: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Manmohan Singh:
If dowry is given without much fuss,whats the problem? .Finally it will be used by couple for betterment of their life.If girl is rich and parents have loads of money but groom does not have much,whats wrong in giving couple few golden bangles,car etc?
Think you are father of 2 girls.and have enough money.You want to give it charitable trust or give it to daughter for her better life? . ?
john wesley,are you love child of John Wiley and Addison Wesley?

Dude, you seem to make a lot of sense. Anyway.

Why is that the entire burden of "betterment" of the couple has to go to brides family �. Why don�t both families share the burden?

..few golden bangles,car etc?� comeon boy complete the wish list.

Father of 2 girls, having enough money � think that is a typical father, huh!!


.....jw

[Pradeep bhatt]

john wesley,are you love child of John Wiley and Addison Wesley?

Born only in feb 2005.

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

Born only in feb 2005.

you guys have got a cool sense of humor, specially Mr.Butt ...

[Manish Hatwalne]

My God!!!
Dowy, parents acompanying daughter while meeting, gotra etc etc... almost seems like a story from another century! Have you guys travelled back in time by any chance and communicating all this from 18th century?

As for non-Indians, as usual they don't know, don't understand much about India but sill have prejudiced opinions about India!!! How much can we explain?

arranged_marriage != marriage_against_your_wish

- Manish

[Varun Khanna]

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Varun, Are you married ?

No

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
My God!!!
Dowy, parents acompanying daughter while meeting, gotra etc etc... almost seems like a story from another century! Have you guys travelled back in time by any chance and communicating all this from 18th century?

As for non-Indians, as usual they don't know, don't understand much about India but sill have prejudiced opinions about India!!! How much can we explain?

arranged_marriage != marriage_against_your_wish

- Manish

Hey Dude I am talking about 20 th century Indian marriages, want me to give some state by state dowry related crime statistics ?

dude, there is nothing wrong in calling a spade a spade, I wonder why Indians get so alarmed by the word dowry, when infact they are neck deep in it.

arranged_marriage = grooms_wish + grooms_fathers_wish + grooms_mothers_wish + grooms_sisters_wish + ramu_kakas_wish + missalenious_wishes (like what manmohan singh said � gold bangles,car etc )

[Damanjit Kaur]

I think, I should commit that its me who was actually sleeping and not Jeroen Wenting.

Yes, there are Dowry cases and brides or bridegrooms accepting the marriage proposal either thru parental pressure or social pressures. The equation of arranged marriages/Some Love Marriages too, as wriiten by john wesley is exactly true in mooooost cases.

As there is lots of transformation going on within India with varying degree at various places, so there are different sets of people :

one who goes strictly by traditional arranged marriages, other with modern arranged marriages like Manish Hatwalne's views, another set going for love marriages but resembling to arranged marriages as described by Teena Desai ,one another set exists which goes for Love marriages similar to as described by Dave Lenton, mostly this last set is the one going for inter-cast/inter-religion marriage with the most less restrictions and away from traditions which can bring the cultural revolution(which is so much desired) in my country.

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:

Honestly I can't fell in love with a girl whose face I don't like evventhough she may be caring /love etc etc.I hope same is true for many people(men and women).

I find it to be the opposite. When I start caring about or sort of falling in love with a woman, she starts to appear beautiful and sexy, even though prior to that I may not have thought much of her. I dont think I have ever been strongly attracted to anyone at the first sight...except when I was a kid maybe..

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
I dont know... but then after marriage when your wife is pregnant, dont expect either your or her mother to come with you 3 months before the delivery and till 6 months after the delivery to take care of your wife and new born baby.

Absolutely.

But many have/will have affairs as long as they are sure they wont get caught and if given a chance. And I bet you will have many more married men having paid sex, if only it were legal and safe to get it.
I know some who had paid sex before marriage, after marriage still I have to find in my group.
I am very much happy if they may expect same from their wives also.

Totally agree. If you are cheating, you have no right to expect your wife to be faithful.

A surprisingly (for me) large number of young women believe in having no premarital sex,
Even I surprise, till that young woman is not my sister

Ok I dont have a sister, so you could say what do I know! But IF I had a sister, I wouldnt be worried about premarital sex. What I would be worried about is whether she is mature and smart enough to take the right decision, and take care of herself. As an adult, whether or not she believes in sex before marriage is her choice. I would be concerned about what kind of guy she goes out with or wants to get married to. All I would want would be that she chose somebody who truely cares about her, somebody who wont use or abuse her.

[Manmohan Singhania]

Originally posted by john wesley:

Hey Dude I am talking about 20 th century Indian marriages, want me to give some state by state dowry related crime statistics ?

arranged_marriage = grooms_wish + grooms_fathers_wish + grooms_mothers_wish + grooms_sisters_wish + ramu_kakas_wish + missalenious_wishes (like what manmohan singh said � gold bangles,car etc )

Dowry cases are there but that does not happen in all 20000 marriages across country in a day.If there are only 2 cases in 100,nothing big.Love child,read my post carefully.If dowry is given WITHOUT much fuss,nothing wrong in that.You can say its a mini lottery.Yes,bride and groom have to adjust otherwise wait till you get your dream partner.
You definition of arranged marriage is bull****.If that is the case,you would not have seen girl getting married at the age of 19 or 20 unless likings of ramukaka+groom's(sister+brother+mother) are exactly same.(you must be knowing that average age of girl getting married in India is 19)

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by john wesley:


you guys have got a cool sense of humor, specially Mr.Butt ...

Yeah right.
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Manmohan Singh:

Dowry cases are there but that does not happen in all 20000 marriages across country in a day.If there are only 2 cases in 100,nothing big.Love child,read my post carefully.If dowry is given WITHOUT much fuss,nothing wrong in that.You can say its a mini lottery.Yes,bride and groom have to adjust otherwise wait till you get your dream partner.
You definition of arranged marriage is bull****.If that is the case,you would not have seen girl getting married at the age of 19 or 20 unless likings of ramukaka+groom's(sister+brother+mother) are exactly same.(you must be knowing that average age of girl getting married in India is 19)

i donnknow what your talking bros, it doesnt make sense to me. however, i am not here to make you return your booty, which ofcourse you have got without any fuss.

meanwhile you can google out a few terms like dowry deaths in india, female infanticide in india ...

by the way ...i'd like to appreciate Mr.Damanjit Kaur comments atleast he was little open in accepting reality. very different XXXXXXXX.

BeRightBack.
......jw
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: john wesley ]

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by john wesley:
by the way ...i'd like to appreciate Mr.Damanjit Kaur comments atleast he was little open in accepting reality. very different from a typical indian braggart.

That would be Ms. Damanjit Kaur

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
What I would be worried about is whether she is mature and smart enough to take the right decision, and take care of herself.

Who is going to decide whether she is mature enough or not... she herself or her age or you ?

Why cant she have sex at age of 17th.. its not that on her 18th b'day she will see some light and get all maturity.

I would be concerned about what kind of guy she goes out with or wants to get married to. All I would want would be that she chose somebody who truely cares about her, somebody who wont use or abuse her.
Why are you concern.. she is mature and old enough to decide at any given point what is right for her and what is not.

My bro, whole family is concerned about that only, for what you are concerned.

And for "John Wesley"... you win... I agree with you.. arrange marriage is all about dowry and only dowry :roll:

[Mehul Sanghvi]

RKSingh : you win... I agree with you.. arrange marriage is all about dowry and only dowry

I dont agree to that fact..!

Infact there are lot of communities where in no gifts are accepted by the grooms family and even the expense of marraige is shared equally between both the families.

And I think it is really futile to try and categorize a practice or a system which is followed by 1/7 of worlds population which is as diverse as it can get!

Mehul.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Mehul Sanghvi:
I dont agree to that fact..!

It was meant for ONLY john wesley.

Sometimes you simply accept whatever dopey thing other fellow is saying.

[john wesley]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


It was meant for ONLY john wesley.

Sometimes you simply accept whatever dopey thing other fellow is saying.

Whoa ! now dowry is dopey thing !!!

Man, I am surprised, you guys are doing every trick in the book to deny something undeniable, something which is recognized by the Indian constitution (THE DOWRY PROHIBITION ACT), something which is effecting the very demography of the nation (imbalance in sex ration/ female infanticide), something that most probably you might have seen and might even have done.

Guys, we do have some liberals who dare and categorically refuse dowry (and make it to headlines) but these are very few sagacious ones, majority of them enjoy this loot in lieu of traditions and family pride�(XXXXXXXXXXXXX )

ShouldIBeBack
.....jw
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: john wesley ]

[Max Habibi]

typical indian braggart

Easy now: I won't moderate this thread if it starts to get rude, I'll just delete the whole thing.

M
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:
[qb]typical indian braggart

Easy now: I won't moderate this thread if it starts to get rude, I'll just delete the whole thing.

M

[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: Max Habibi ][/QB]

Yes Sir,
all things corrected Sir,
emotional outburst Sir,
Incidentally, I have your book [reg expression] right now on my desk Sir,
You full name is Mehran Habibi and you are an armature boxer and marshal arts trainer. Sir,

Thank you Sir,

.....jw

[Mehul Sanghvi]

John, have you been to India ever??

Mehul.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by john wesley:
something which is recognized by the Indian constitution (THE DOWRY PROHIBITION ACT), something which is effecting the very demography of the nation (imbalance in sex ration/ female infanticide), something that most probably you might have seen and might even have done.

I do agree with you.

[Manish Hatwalne]

Hmmmm, some more rambling -

I don't think only because parents spend money for their children's education, they must also decide the prospective spouse for their children. They can suggest, but ultimately it MUST be decided by the person who is getting married. After all, the couple has to spend all the life with each other (Unlike Elizabeth Taylor, most Indian don't change/rotate their spouse often!), and you don't really own your children, do you? Any of you read Khalil Gibran?

Maybe things are the way they are because of good reason. The success of Indains in Briton is down to Indian culture and Arranged Marrage is one of them. Change one thing about that culture could have implicaton alseware.

Unless we can understand aranged marrages scientifically, messing with a thousand year old tredition for the interest of fareness is foolhardy.

I beg to differ here. Success of Indians in the outside world is due many other reasons and emotional security due to strong family ties could be one of them. More important reasons could be their determination, caliber and drive for success.

Again, I don't think that one should blindly follow traditions or any other beliefs. If it makes sense maybe one should, if it doesn't make sense, maybe one should try to see what makes sense to HIM/HER. I think some element of skepticism is always needed. Culture/tradition after all is not a predefined set of standards and processes, it keeps changing and evolving with time, lot of traditions/customs become irrelevant, outdated, inappropriate with time and lot of new trails/workarounds are found by progressive people and slowly these things become part of traditions/customs as well. There are far too many urban males/females out there who would want to take out that "awkwardness" and "boy seeing a girl rituals" out of arranged marriages and they are open about non-conventional not-strictly-traditional ways of finding their partner. How else could one justify success of online marriage portals like bharatmatrimony.com, shaadi.com & jeevansaathi.com?

Who knows, after 10 years from now there could be even homosexual marriages in India!!!

Also, I am not at all saying that there's no dowry or the "typical traditional marriages" in India (and I think nobody else is saying that as well), I am saying that it *NOT* only that. Of course, there's a law against it and so it recognizes it as unfair practice (I believe child abuse is illegal in USA, but I can google and find many cases of the same in whichever country I want. See, it is insensible to theorize before one has enough factual data, insensibly one begins to twist the data to suit the theory), so may be instead of posting state-wise stats here, find few genuine dowry cases with proof; and then report to the cops, maybe you'll get some rewards!! No problems in calling spade a spade, but why call everything a spade only because it comes from a specific region/nation? I do agree we (India) as a nation are poor, still have lots of superstitions, irrelevant customs, but we have lot of other good things at the same time. Why not consider that? Why not accept that many average Indian men/women are as free, as independent and as happy as they could be (even in arranged marriages) in any other so-called free part of the world!! In fact some of our systems (strong family ties for example) make us far more stable and emotionally secure than so-called independent regions. Most psychologist/sociologist do emphasis on importance of relationships and deep sense of emotional security and acceptance they offer. What's more desirable - A girl getting pregnant at 11-12? Discovering sex before she discovers love, caring, acceptance because she's never seen that in her parents? Of course, she doesn't need her parents "interfering" in her affairs!!!

Also, the Indian group that is discussing here is highly educated, urban men and women (not necessarily all progressive). Not many of them would identify with or relate to those things. I know at least 10 friends who did not take or even mention dowry. I can think of 10 more friends who wouldn't go for it either; and I am totally against it myself. Hell, I don't even care if she never wears mangalsutra or never uses my name/surname.

Maybe I am lucky to have rather open, trusting and progressive upbringing, but I would like to believe that most people of my generation (at least in urban India) are mature enough to oppose dowry.

BTW, how many of you know that there are communities where dowry is taken from groom?

Mehul is right -
It is really very difficult to try and categorize a practice or a system which is followed by 1/7 of worlds population which is as diverse as it can gets!

[Bhau Mhatre]

john wesley: I wonder why Indians get so alarmed by the word dowry, when infact they are neck deep in it.
The reaction usually depends on which part of the country (city/village/town) he/she is from.

For the dowry itself: My best guess is that the tradition probably started as gifts hundreds of years ago. As time passed by, whenever the bridegroom's parents were more powerful in the society, they demanded more gifts from the brides' knowing the family will be more than happy if their daughter could be accepted in a higher social family. (Remember, polygamy was pretty much okay in those days, and so the groom would not mind marrying someone from lower class because that would be just one of his wives)

On the other hand, if the groom was from a socially equal class/caste, chances and size of dowry was probably less. In other situations where some communities were very closely knit, the grooms would not marry someone outside the community. Shortage of women in these communities may not help much with the dowry.

And if a guy and a girl got attracted towards each other and were from socially different status, then they will sometimes have to beg/convince/fight or whatever it takes to get married. Sometimes fight with the girls's parents, or the guy's, or both. Forget the dowry.

Side info: In some places it's the men who go and live with their inlaws. And may be even pay the bride. It is in very few communities though.

---------
Manish Hatwalne: Dowry, parents acompanying daughter while meeting, gotra etc etc... almost seems like a story from another century! Have you guys travelled back in time by any chance and communicating all this from 18th century?

Well, you don't need to travel back in time. The country as a whole, we live in many centuries at the same time. You just have to visit different places to experience different time-frames, I think.

[EDIT: Oops, I see you posted few minutes earlier and I missed it while I was still typing.]

---------
There were probably many other communities outside India where dowries were practiced. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry - "Dowries were also important social components of Roman marriages."


Did you know section:
When princess Catherine de Braganza of Portugal married Charles II of England, the king was given the islands of Mumbadevi/Bom Bahia/Bombay/Mumbai as dowry.
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: Bhau Mhatre ]

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
Could it be possible that there are situations where people feel pressured by society and family to accept their parents' decision, even if they do not feel comfortable with it? Even though a person may be theoretically free to turn down a marriage recommendation, they may not want to do so if they feel that people will think less of them because of it. While it may hurt the parents to turn down an arranged marriage, should a person spend their life in an unhappy marital situation just to please their parents?

Yes, that's possible and does happen.
That's why it is all the more important to know the person you're marrying and make sure that it's your decision.

Anybody who makes any decision based on some external pressure against his/her wish is likely to suffer sometime later (he may not as well!)!

While I value the opinion of my parents, and am very grateful for the upbringing and financial assistance they have given me, should I choose to spend the rest of my life living with someone I would not make that choice based upon their recommendation. I want the choice of life partner to be based upon things like friendship, character compatibility, and yes, love.... not upon social pressure and how well our families get on.

Exactly!!!

However, the thing is that - sometimes your parents don't know what is best for you, and sometimes they do. Likekwise, it is possible that sometimes you can judge what is best for you and sometimes you go wrong in this judgement.

The probability of Indian arranged marriages (with parents involved) working out well is high because often parents really know their children & prospective bride/groom well, they are very concerned about well being of their son/daughter and they have experince, wisdom, maturity and prudnce to see the couple after few years when initial physical attraction is faded. This insight of parents might be lacking in some youngsters if they make their own decision without any suggestions from family.

rgds,
- Manish

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Bhau Mhatre:
Manish Hatwalne: Dowry, parents acompanying daughter while meeting, gotra etc etc... almost seems like a story from another century! Have you guys travelled back in time by any chance and communicating all this from 18th century?

Well, you don't need to travel back in time. The country as a whole, we live in many centuries at the same time. You just have to visit different places to experience different time-frames, I think.

I absolutely agree!!! It was more of a tongue-in-cheek remark (there's winking smiley there) to express disbelief!

rgds,
- Manish

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Who is going to decide whether she is mature enough or not... she herself or her age or you ?

Why cant she have sex at age of 17th.. its not that on her 18th b'day she will see some light and get all maturity.

I would be concerned about what kind of guy she goes out with or wants to get married to. All I would want would be that she chose somebody who truely cares about her, somebody who wont use or abuse her.
Why are you concern.. she is mature and old enough to decide at any given point what is right for her and what is not.
...

My whole point is that I do not have the right to decide for her. She has to decide for herself, and all you can hope is that her upbringing has made her mature enough to take the right decision.

And, what is the right age when kids should be given the right to decide whether they want to have sex is a difficult question, not only in India, but in the West as well.

[EDIT: Guess we are getting off-topic here, probabely need a new thread for validity of premarital sex, or the right age for it ]
[ February 15, 2005: Message edited by: Sonny Gill ]

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
[QB
...
Any of you read Khalil Gibran?
...
[/QB]

I suppose you meant The Prophet by Khalil Gibran.
Beautiful book, highly recommended reading. I try to force it on all my friends

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
My whole point is that I do not have the right to decide for her. She has to decide for herself, and all you can hope is that her upbringing has made her mature enough to take the right decision.

I might be sounding a bit old and conservative, but fact is that I want to take care[or whatever you may want to call it] of her always.

Guess we are getting off-topic here, probabely need a new thread for validity of premarital sex, or the right age for it
I think I would try to keep myself away from this topic like I cant discuss why a man should be thought of being gay if he lives with his parents.

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
Hmmmm, some more rambling -

.. so may be instead of posting state-wise stats here, find few genuine dowry cases with proof; and then report to the cops, maybe you'll get some rewards!! No problems in calling spade a spade, but why call everything a spade only because it comes from a specific region/nation? ...........

You think I�d go to those mafia like cops ??? you must be kidding.

.....jw

[john wesley]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:


(I believe child abuse is illegal in USA, but I can google and find many cases of the same in whichever country I want. See, it is insensible to theorize before one has enough factual data, insensibly one begins to twist the data to suit the theory), so may be instead of posting state-wise stats here, find few genuine dowry cases with proof; and then report to the cops, maybe you'll get some rewards!! No problems in calling spade a spade, but why call everything a spade only because it comes from a specific region/nation? I do agree we (India) as a nation are poor, still have lots of superstitions, irrelevant customs, but we have lot of other good things at the same time. Why not consider that? Why................

-come real man, are we talking about US of A here ?? are we talking about child abuse here ??? you know guys � I�v seen so many arm chair analyst trying to sell me the �west is chaos� theory � chaos my A**, the only reason why US crime stats look so impressive is simply because every thing gets recorded, where as in India(or elseware) a very tiny percentage of crime actually gets recorded/reported.

You know guys, I was wondering what university education has taught people � to write long meaning less posts ?? beating round the bush all the time ??? � you see, I had just made one point � that dowry is and undeniable and integral part of traditional Indian marriages and that majority of the people do not consider it wrong to extort money from the brides family. and later call it no fuss dowry.

Instead of talking about what I said you, guys have drilled down to the origins and different forms of dowry and made a mini thesis out of it. While I was just talking about the current monstrous manifestation of dowry in India.

cool.
.....jw

[john wesley]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


I do agree with you.

cool, buddy!
.....jw