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Mark Herschberg, author of The Career Toolkit
https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com/
Gabriel
Software Surgeon
Glen Cai wrote:
Suggesting US citizens are dump is not very nice for guest workers, at least they are your host.
Glen Cai wrote:
The main point here is that US citizens must lower the salary expectations to compete.
aditee sharma wrote:
Glen Cai wrote:
The main point here is that US citizens must lower the salary expectations to compete.
In part correct, but one must understand why. There is skill-based competition to the US workers and that drives down the price in some cases. As somebody said, in the mostly contract job market of H1B, you get fired if you are not working well. Why would somebody keep any worker, H1B or otherwise, if he/she is incapable of performing?
Henry Wong wrote:
But I don't seem to know many of these type of developers.
I like to believe that a friend of mine, who knows how to execute a program sell of a large amounts of shares, in the stock market, while having little impact on the market.... And happens to do coding in Java, is more valueable as a developer to a hedge fund than your standard commodity Java developer.
Also, you are assuming that contract developers do not have the business/domain knowledge.
Some of the contract developers(both US and H1B) that I know had adequate domain knowledge.
The US developers however, were deliberately on contract to make more money and to have more freedom.
Henry Wong wrote:
Actually, no. I made no such assumptions. I know plenty of contract developers, both foreign and domestic, with really good domain knowledge. And they all get paid top dollar.
Henry Wong wrote:
Okay, I agree that for H1Bs, it is mostly a commodity market.
And I agree that there are many US citizens, whom are Java developers, and who must compete in this commodity market.
But I don't seem to know many of these type of developers.
Henry Wong wrote:
It is you that is assuming that an H1B with domain knowledge is going to drop salary expectations, for the field. In fact, I think it's the other way around. Domain knowledge is going to raise salary expectations.
If by "commodity" you don't mean contract, then kindly let know what do you mean..
Mark Herschberg, author of The Career Toolkit
https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com/
I'm going to jump in with a comment to hopefully minimizing the ensuing debate (or rather minimizing the tangents to it).
Henry Wong wrote:
Actually, no. I made no such assumptions. I know plenty of contract developers, both foreign and domestic, with really good domain knowledge. And they all get paid top dollar.
Henry Wong wrote:
Okay, I agree that for H1Bs, it is mostly a commodity market.
And I agree that there are many US citizens, whom are Java developers, and who must compete in this commodity market.
But I don't seem to know many of these type of developers.
aditee sharma wrote:After this mini discussion about commodity developers, can we not safely say that commodity development is mostly contract jobs?
Mark Herschberg, author of The Career Toolkit
https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com/
After this mini discussion about commodity developers, can we not safely say that commodity development is mostly contract jobs? and then will it be wrong to say that Henry's following two statements contradict each other?
Henry Wong wrote:
After this mini discussion about commodity developers, can we not safely say that commodity development is mostly contract jobs? and then will it be wrong to say that Henry's following two statements contradict each other?
Besides being an obvious strawman argument (with some out of context setup), it is not even directly related to the point I was making....
Henry
Henry, I have been siliently following the discussion and I am sorry but I am not sure what is your point either.
Henry Wong wrote:
The point that I disagreed with was... that domestic employees have to cut their salary expectations due to the influx of overseas talent (and from your conclusions, it looks like you disagree with it as well).
Henry
Ann Basso wrote:Ok, I got your point. Just to be sure my conclusion is that domestic employees may have to cut their salary expectation if they don't want to remain unemployed. But the cut does not have to be too much because ultimately the cost of living applies to H1Bs and domestic employees equally.
In a commodity market, nobody makes abnormal profits. So basically, a domestic employee (if competing for a commodity development role such as pure java/jee developer), can't demand $100/hr when $50/hr H1B developer is available. So in that sense, there is definitely pressure on domestic developer on reducing the salary. But $50/hr in itself is quite good, it is quite more than national average wage. So there is no reason for a domestic worker to remain unemployed other than lack relevant skills.
Henry Wong wrote:
Ann Basso wrote:
Haven't said that I don't really disagree with your conclusions based on the premise that it is a commodity market. I disagree with the premise though. I do not agree, that for the majority of developers, that it is a commodity market. (Java isn't the only language. In Java, no everyone standardlize on Hibernate and Spring, and Domain knowledge isn't a commodity. etc.)
Henry
I am thinking about the worst case scenario. i.e. even if it is a commodity market for majority of the developers (I believe it is so for folks on H1B, which is what you disagree with), it cannot be a cause for unemployment of domestic developers. So the hue and cry about H1B is really misplaced.
Henry Wong wrote: I do not agree, that for the majority of developers, that it is a commodity market. (Java isn't the only language. In Java, no everyone standardlize on Hibernate and Spring, and Domain knowledge isn't a commodity. etc.)
Henry Wong wrote:...
I am not totally convinced of this argument.... Okay, I agree that for H1Bs, it is mostly a commodity market. And I agree that there are many US citizens, whom are Java developers, and who must compete in this commodity market.
But I don't seem to know many of these type of developers. I like to believe that a friend of mine, who knows how to execute a program sell of a large amounts of shares, in the stock market, while having little impact on the market.... And happens to do coding in Java, is more valueable as a developer to a hedge fund than your standard commodity Java developer.
IMO, even though supply and demand still applies, skill and experience are still part of that equation -- which means that not everyone has to lower salary expectations, because of the influx of cheaper labor.
Henry
"Knowing is not enough, you must apply... Willing is not enough, you must do."
--Bruce Lee
Todd Jain wrote:I do not feel comfortable with the word "commodity" to describe software programmers. It reminds me something bad happened a few hundred years ago in US. I know you mean competition among people, but there are something at a higher level - Human Rights (or commodity rights).
Gabriel Claramunt wrote:For what is worth, in my experience, a person's ability has nothing to do with their immigration status (I worked with awesome us citizens, permanent residents, H1Bs, and L1Bs, and I found examples of not so good skills in all categories too) neither with the country of origin (although I must confess that I feel more comfortable working with people from some countries than others... but is a cultural thing )
PJ Murray -
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