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Astrology

 
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Just a reminder. The scientific method, by its nature, is (purposefully) dedicated to the study of things that can be studied, well, by its method.

I have a university degree in physics and as such I understand the scientific method very well.

I also know that it can't study everything.

For example, psychic phenomena, because it is so elusive. Unless you count statistics...

One of the principles of the scientific method is repeatability. An experiment must always have the same results, if performed identically no matter where or by whom. Or else explain those differences in a consistent way.

I 'adore' this principle that has taken us humans from the cave to the Moon (and back), really.

But by its nature it is not suited to study absolutely everything.

The only time I demand that scientific studies be presented is when someone is trying to separate me from my money.

Then I become the most skeptical of all
 
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You come to Trichy by Vaigai express(starts from Chennai 12:30pm) or Guruyavur Express(7:30 am).Then catch a bus for Thanjavur.Then from Thanjavur,catch a bus to Kumbakonam.BTW The place is just 60 km far from my college......
 
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Hey Agrah, I�m curios to know about my future.

If I tell you my date of birth, time, and place � will you tell me my future?
 
agrah upadhyay
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If I tell you my date of birth, time, and place � will you tell me my future?


Ok so do one thing that get your Kundali made from a knowledgable pandit and then send it to me....I will get it foretelled and will tell you.....
 
Chetan Parekh
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Originally posted by agrah upadhyay:

Ok so do one thing that get your Kundali made from a knowledgable pandit and then send it to me....I will get it foretelled and will tell you.....



PM me your email id.
[ July 01, 2006: Message edited by: Chetan Parekh ]
 
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Originally posted by R K Singh:
With no scietific proof, books are there that tell you how to read human body posture and know his personality or attituda at that moment.

There books which will tell you this, but there are also scientific studies into body language and postures. Like any other psychology related subject it is difficult to make exact predictions, but there are studies and they have produced finding which can help make informed predictions. There isn't scientific proof of this, but there is a lot more evidence derived from scientific experimentation which points towards body language based predictions being accurate then astrological predictions being accurate.
 
Dave Lenton
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Originally posted by vjy chin:
I also feel something cant be proved by science.

This is true. However, if there is an entity which cannot be proven, then it is a fallacy to declare it to be undenyably true. What I object to is people who make money from selling a unprovable theory by telling people that it certainly works. That theory cannot be certainly true if it cannot be proven.

Astrology is much more older than science, and why should anyone prove astrology scientifically.

This depends upon what you mean by "science". If you mean people in labs doing experiments, then we may also say that medicine is older then science. This doesn't make medical theories not worth scientifically proving though! Science doesn't only mean lab work though. Science is all about observing the universe and trying to understand it by experimentation. This is as old as humanity itself (older even; an ape trying to crack a nut with different stones is conducting a scientific experiment).

Astrology itself most likely has routes in scientific methodology. People will have made observations based upon the positions of stars, and based a theory on this observation. They may even have done some crude experimentation. How else will they have discovered the methodology behind making predictions? I'd argue that their experiments were probably not robust enough though.
[ July 03, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]
 
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Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
[QB]This doesn't make medical theories not worth scientifically proving though! [QB]



You must have heard of the placebo effect in treating an ailment, it works sometimes, sometimes it does not, from an scientific point of view it should never work but it does sometimes.... can it be explained...?

Time wraps is a theoritical concept which does not have any proof supporting it, but is the base algorithm time travel.

Human Consciousness is an accepted theory, but no one knows what happens to it when a human dies.


Hmmmm on predicting future's, I am a bit of an skeptic.... unless I am winning a lottery....
 
agrah upadhyay
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By Dave Lenton
There isn't scientific proof of this, but there is a lot more evidence derived from scientific experimentation which points towards body language based predictions being accurate


Yeah you got the point .These are evidences which sometimes proves how genuine something is.And there is something in Astrology which is keeping it alive from hundreds of years.

What I object to is people who make money from selling a unprovable theory by telling people that it certainly works. That theory cannot be certainly true if it cannot be proven.


Again I do agree with you on this point.In india,due to great extent of poverty,some people start Astrology as profession with in fact no knowledge og it at all.But there are some really knowedgeable people who knows jyotish science well.
[ July 03, 2006: Message edited by: agrah upadhyay ]
 
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I mean astrology cannot be proved scientifically.

For this you need to understand how it works or goto a true astrologer, not the ordinary ones who just is bent on getting money to predict your future. Thats the only way you can prove it works for you. And astrology is a kind of a thing which one needs to get first hand experience before one say its working or not.

Actually there are many ways of this, one such thing is palmistry. I know using your hand, one can predict the future. But I feel this is more generic than the charts.

So if you need proof, you should probably get first hand experience.
 
lowercase baba
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but getting first hand experience is NOT proof. the problem with doing that is that it is biased, one way or the other, based on each person's beliefs walking in.

If you (assuming you are a believer) walk in, then you will see things working, being true, and generally being exactly what you want to see - a successful reading/chart/whatever.

if I go in, being a skeptic, i'm going to see generalities, vague statments, and guesses.

so, to find EVIDENCE it works - not proof - you need to come up with a method that removes any bias.

the starting point is to define exactly what it is that someone can do. WHAT is the claim someone is making about astrology? just that "it works" is not acceptable. can it predict the future? we seem to agree that "no" is the answer.

so if i go to an astrologer, what should i expect them to do, and what results should i expect to see?
 
agrah upadhyay
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Fred,Yeah that is what has been mentioned as Placebo Effect. But again my question if someone tells you your name,what will you say(For example if he say that your second name is related to some flower and first name is Fred)........Moreever if he tells you your parents name then?
 
fred rosenberger
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i'd say he has access to google.
 
agrah upadhyay
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i'd say he has access to google.


He he......In rare hard time when am skeptical,I too would have said so.
By the way you should not have put your fingerprint on internet also not photo.
 
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I do not have believe in astrology. Would not mind reading it for fun.
 
Dave Lenton
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Originally posted by agrah upadhyay:
Yeah you got the point .These are evidences which sometimes proves how genuine something is.And there is something in Astrology which is keeping it alive from hundreds of years.

Again, this is the Bandwagon Fallacy. Just because plenty of people like do it doesn't make it right. For a long time people kept alive the theory that the world was flat, or that light is transmitted from our eyes or that the sun goes around the earth. All of these had "scientific proof" at the time, but all ultimately were found to be false.

Perhaps our current theories will be too. We will only find out through vigorous scientific attempts to prove or disprove them. I am yet to see this happen with Astrology.
 
Dave Lenton
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Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:
You must have heard of the placebo effect in treating an ailment, it works sometimes, sometimes it does not, from an scientific point of view it should never work but it does sometimes.... can it be explained...?

I think it can be explained in some situations. Its not hard to see how a person may convince themselves that subjective measurements of their illness (such as a person estimating their own level of pain) may be effected by their expectations. If a person is convinced that they are feeling better, perhaps they can think that that they are.

Human Consciousness is an accepted theory, but no one knows what happens to it when a human dies.

Depends what you mean by Human Consciousness. I don't think that pre-death consciousness implies or denies post-death consciousness, the two are separate issues.

Hmmmm on predicting future's, I am a bit of an skeptic.... unless I am winning a lottery....

Absolutely!
 
agrah upadhyay
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Again, this is the Bandwagon Fallacy


And more commonly example of this fallacy is given as :Christianity is believed by the greatest amount of people in the world, so it must be true.
 
Devesh H Rao
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Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
If a person is convinced that they are feeling better, perhaps they can think that that they are.



Exactly, that is what I fail to understand as in how are some people capable of convincing themselves that they are alright while some people cannot, we say it is willpower and we all know it exists but I somehow cannot quantify or justify its existence, I just have to assume it exists.

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
[B]Depends what you mean by Human Consciousness. I don't think that pre-death consciousness implies or denies post-death consciousness, the two are separate issues.
B]



Again for all that matters it may exist, all I am saying with the level of understanding and knowledge that humans have been able to gain over the last 4-5 thousand years of existence, we haven�t yet managed to "Define" it.

Again on the topic of Astrology, I always have one question to ask any astrologer, in fact my mom is a firm believer and I was having this conversation just yesterday with her,

Say for saying sake, I accept that astrology can predict the future and every person has his destiny prewritten, then what happens in case of a person who�s �kundali�/Birth chart shows he is going to be a murderer, if he commits a murder can he be condemned as according to me he Is not at fault as everything is predestined and even if he wanted he wouldn�t have been able to escape it, the stock answer that I get is with knowledge that a person has that he can be a murderer In future he can mould himself such that he will not commit such a crime, but then the future written in his birth chart changes which is contradictory to the prediction.

Somewhere in MD I guess one of the ranchers made a comment about humans being herd animals and got slammed big time, but if we really not try to associate the comment with ourselves in each and every situation we have been in, I think, I agree with the theory of humans somehow tending to believe in something's, a majority of people around them believe in it.

Obviously exceptions do exist and thank god for such exceptions but isn�t herd mentality and �Bandwagon Fallacy� different names for the same theory.
[ July 06, 2006: Message edited by: Devesh H Rao ]
 
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Billionairs are virgos
 
Dave Lenton
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Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:
Exactly, that is what I fail to understand as in how are some people capable of convincing themselves that they are alright while some people cannot, we say it is willpower and we all know it exists but I somehow cannot quantify or justify its existence, I just have to assume it exists.


I can see what you're getting at, but there is a difference between this and astrology. There have been a great deal of psychological experiments into human behaviour, and while they may not be able to tell us exactly how it works, they allow predictions which are often accurate.

Experiments into astrology, on the other hand, have never scientifically shown it to be a reasonable way of predicting things.

Besides, I do not think that the placebo effect is that unusual. Our nerves send signals to the brain, but it is the brain which transforms those signals into the experience of pain that we have. It would be no surprise if the brain was able to alter that experience somehow, as it is the organ which makes it in the first place!

I agree with the theory of humans somehow tending to believe in something's, a majority of people around them believe in it.

Obviously exceptions do exist and thank god for such exceptions but isn�t herd mentality and �Bandwagon Fallacy� different names for the same theory.

Yes, I think it is fairly common for people's belief in many things to be affected by those around them. This could be why we see believers in astrology often "clumped" in certain areas - they happen to be areas where people are raised within a social group which believes in astrology. Note this does not validate or invalidate believing in it though, rather that it implies it is not a reason to believe or disbelieve in it.
 
vjy chin
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Hi,

I just got the website which my cousin created on Astrology. I am giving the linkhttp://www.geocities.com/vedic_jyotish2002/

If you wish you can check it out, also I am letting you know, it is created according to Vedic culture.
 
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