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Why and How Java is better than C#?

 
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I'm amused at how this conversation has devolved to be about certifications, as if that has anything whatsoever to do with how "good" a language is (or language user, for that matter).

Like David, when evaluating a candidate, certifications are a non-factor.
 
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Bear Bibeault wrote:I'm amused at how this conversation has devolved to be about certifications, as if that has anything whatsoever to do with how "good" a language is (or language user, for that matter).

Like David, when evaluating a candidate, certifications are a non-factor.



It is interesting to see though the philosophy behind one camp's certification vs the others. It highlights what one sees as relevant.
 
Bear Bibeault
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No argument there, but that's a completely different conversation.
 
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As a holder of SCJP 1.4 and 6 and SCWCD 5 I must agree that the examination shows very little about what one really can do. It shows you have the knowledge, but it doesn't show you know how to apply that knowledge. That's where SCJD comes into place, with a real code project that will be reviewed, and examination that proves you have knowledge of the written code (to filter out many people who try to hand in other people's code).
 
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I'll add that while I don't consider an SCJP particularly beneficial, I find that now that I *can* program my way out of a paper bag (as long as it's wet), some of the information in the SCJP is actually somewhat interesting, and I might take it just for fun and to round out my core Java knowledge.

This somewhat fits with my theory of education, though: specialize last.
 
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Jelle Klap wrote:Why limit yourself to a single (scripting) language or platform? Multidisciplinarity is key.
Java is not 'better' than .NET/C#, nor is .NET/C# 'better' than Java. They're different.
Depending on the problem you're trying to solve and the context in which you are trying to solve it, one might be better suited than the other.
The right tool for the right job, so to speak. So compare features, benefits and drawbacks, and pick the one that suits your needs/expectations best.
But which ever one you pick, don't make the mistake of ignoring the other.



I just want to highlight this point,when you see a job proposal,it says Java/J2EE developer not developer.
So why can't i stick with the language i like and try to improve as much as i can in it,wouldn't it be more beneficial than trying to learn many languages and stay average in all of them ?
 
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Jimmy Clark wrote: How much COBOL programming have you done and what are the data file sizes that you have worked with?


Enough to know personally that your claim is bogus. I've written parsers and DBMS packages in Cobol. I've broken mainframe "hardware" with Cobol programs. I've written several "CRM" Cobol to relational DBMS mappers for Cobol.

Cobol is used because of two main things:

1) its been used for 40 to 50 years and for a lot of the code, no one dares change it.
2) it handles money properly, something that Java and C# and C++ do not do themselves.

Since folks use Cobol to do financial applications, proper handling of money is really, really important.

Jimmy Clark wrote: The other aspect to consisder is the data storage mechanisms and the relationship between the database and the applications. Oracle has very powerful Pro*COBOL components that enable extreme data processing speeds.



When you are using Oracle's tools, you are no longer using Cobol, you are using Oracle's tools. Cobol is well defined by a public standard. It was designed to be cross platform and able to run on any machine. When you use Oracle's tools, you lose that. Perhaps that is good, perhaps not.
 
Pat Farrell
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Back on Topic:

Java is not "better" than C#, its a silly question. It can't be answered at all without a lot of details on what the requirements are, and listing the requirements itself, is a political task. The politics of Java have gotten a lot more heated recently, with Oracle suing Google over basic stuff.

The second question: what should one learn, I'd start with C# just because the Microsoft tools are good.
Java is a tool, as is C#. But no one writes much in the language, they use the language and the libraries. Both had good libraries.
 
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Mehdi Ben Larbi wrote:
I just want to highlight this point,when you see a job proposal,it says Java/J2EE developer not developer.
So why can't i stick with the language i like and try to improve as much as i can in it,wouldn't it be more beneficial than trying to learn many languages and stay average in all of them ?



How do you "try to improve as much as [you] can" when you don't know what to improve on? How do you improve on something when you don't get a chance to practice it? Languages are not completely interchangeable. Different languages do things differently.

Try some time learning SQL. You may not become an expert on it, but it may help your understanding of JTA or JDBC. Try some time learning prolog. You will definitely not become an expert on it, but you will get much better with recursion. Try some time learning HTML, javascript, CSS, etc. You definitely won't become an expert, but it will help you understands how to write servlets better. And my favorite rant, learn assembly. I really hate it when Java developers can't do simple bitwise math. Or understand the basics about hardware resources.

Henry
 
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Henry Wong wrote:

Mehdi Ben Larbi wrote:
I just want to highlight this point,when you see a job proposal,it says Java/J2EE developer not developer.
So why can't i stick with the language i like and try to improve as much as i can in it,wouldn't it be more beneficial than trying to learn many languages and stay average in all of them ?



How do you "try to improve as much as [you] can" when you don't know what to improve on? How do you improve on something when you don't get a chance to practice it? Languages are not completely interchangeable. Different languages do things differently.

Try some time learning SQL. You may not become an expert on it, but it may help your understanding of JTA or JDBC. Try some time learning prolog. You will definitely not become an expert on it, but you will get much better with recursion. Try some time learning HTML, javascript, CSS, etc. You definitely won't become an expert, but it will help you understands how to write servlets better. And my favorite rant, learn assembly. I really hate it when Java developers can't do simple bitwise math. Or understand the basics about hardware resources.

Henry



That's exactly what i said,i prefer to learn languages that could help me improve in Java than to learn C# ( which i tired and didn't like at all ).
 
Rob Spoor
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Pat Farrell wrote:I'd start with C# just because the Microsoft tools are good.


That's a matter of opinion of course. Visual Studio 2008 is a very expensive investment*. Sure, you can start with Studio Express, but that's a crippled version. SharpDevelop may be a good, free alternative, but that's not a Microsoft tool. In Java you can use NetBeans or Eclipse as fully free, fully functional IDEs. Having used both SharpDevelop and Eclipse, I highly prefer the latter.

* An investment high enough for me to not use it.
 
David Newton
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Mehdi Ben Larbi wrote:That's exactly what i said,i prefer to learn languages that could help me improve in Java than to learn C# ( which i tired and didn't like at all ).


Try harder. It *would* improve your Java, because it has some features that Java just doesn't have. It wouldn't be my *first* choice, but it's not an unreasonable one. And why didn't you like it? How long did you spend with it? How did you "try"?

I always tell people to learn a Lisp, Smalltalk, assembly of some sort, C, Forth, and an FP language.
 
Henry Wong
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Rob Prime wrote:SharpDevelop may be a good, free alternative, but that's not a Microsoft tool. In Java you can use NetBeans or Eclipse as fully free, fully functional IDEs. Having used both SharpDevelop and Eclipse, I highly prefer the latter.



There's an alternative to Visual Studio? I did not know that. And while you are on the subject....

Does it handle regular C? regular C++? ie... non .NET apps as well? And does it have certain features like integration to CVS, SVN ?


Rob Prime wrote:
That's a matter of opinion of course. Visual Studio 2008 is a very expensive investment*. Sure, you can start with Studio Express, but that's a crippled version.

* An investment high enough for me to not use it.



Interestingly, for the last two companies that I worked for... Microsoft has a really good reputation for Visual Studio. I requested it, thinking that I may not get it -- not only did I get it, but I got it as part of a MSDN subscription, which is much much more expensive.

Henry
 
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David Newton wrote:

Mehdi Ben Larbi wrote:That's exactly what i said,i prefer to learn languages that could help me improve in Java than to learn C# ( which i tired and didn't like at all ).


Try harder. It *would* improve your Java, because it has some features that Java just doesn't have. It wouldn't be my *first* choice, but it's not an unreasonable one. And why didn't you like it? How long did you spend with it? How did you "try"?



And I'll add to that. How do you know what you do not know? You can't know that a language won't improve your Java until you learned it well (which requires that you actually want to do it). And even then I am not convinced -- the learning process will always give you something that will help your understanding of data structures, algorithms, etc. This will make you a better developer -- which implies better Java developer.

Henry
 
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David Newton wrote:
Try harder. It *would* improve your Java, because it has some features that Java just doesn't have. It wouldn't be my *first* choice, but it's not an unreasonable one. And why didn't you like it? How long did you spend with it? How did you "try"?

I always tell people to learn a Lisp, Smalltalk, assembly of some sort, C, Forth, and an FP language.



I started with C,it was a good language to learn the basics of programming,the best in my opinion because you get to allocate pointers yourself,manage the memory ... Then i started to learn Java and i love it,i really like its spirit,the huge community,the infinite numbers of free libraries,the fact that you basically always have a choice.
I have nothing against C#,it looks a lot like Java but it's a Microsoft thing,and nothing is free with them that's frustrating.
For example,when i tried to use an Oracle Database in my project i couldn't even find a free provider,also the community is negligible compared to Java.
The Job market is also a lot more favorable to Java.
 
David Newton
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Mehdi Ben Larbi wrote:I have nothing against C#


You said you didn't like it.
 
Mehdi Ben Larbi
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David Newton wrote:
You said you didn't like it.



Well i'm honest i didn't get a real deep look at it,i only did some minor academic projects with C# and Asp.net.
I didn't like the tool ( Visual Express ) and the fact that i was dependant on Microsoft and only Microsoft.
I had to use Sql Server,i couldn't use Linux properly,i couldn't find any free library to add to my code so it was very frustrating for me.Especially when you're used to Java.
The language C# is close to Java.
 
David Newton
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So... you don't really have a reason to dislike C#-the-language, I guess. Fair enough. It is *similar* to Java, but has features Java simply doesn't have and cannot emulate in reasonable ways.

I'm always careful about making comparisons between things when I don't really have a solid understanding of the things I'm comparing.
 
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Henry Wong wrote:

Rob Prime wrote:SharpDevelop may be a good, free alternative, but that's not a Microsoft tool. In Java you can use NetBeans or Eclipse as fully free, fully functional IDEs. Having used both SharpDevelop and Eclipse, I highly prefer the latter.



There's an alternative to Visual Studio? I did not know that. And while you are on the subject....

Does it handle regular C? regular C++? ie... non .NET apps as well? And does it have certain features like integration to CVS, SVN ?


I haven't used it for anything else than C# so far, but it seems to support Boo, ILAsm and VB.NET as well. Perhaps C++.NET, but nothing else seems to be available. It has SVN support but no CVS. Still, it's completely free so I'm not complaining.

For C and C++ I have so far preferred a text editor and command line in combination with GCC (in MinGW on Windows).

Rob Prime wrote:
That's a matter of opinion of course. Visual Studio 2008 is a very expensive investment*. Sure, you can start with Studio Express, but that's a crippled version.

* An investment high enough for me to not use it.



Interestingly, for the last two companies that I worked for... Microsoft has a really good reputation for Visual Studio. I requested it, thinking that I may not get it -- not only did I get it, but I got it as part of a MSDN subscription, which is much much more expensive.

Henry


I envy you. I have asked for MSDN multiple times, and my direct manager agrees, but there is never any budget for it...
 
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Dear Vishal, Java is not better than C# or C# is not better than Java. Each language has their own strength or weakness, most in case of features of the language, learning the language, implementations, and the major one is also a software is free or licensed. If software is free and have strong features, it will get popularity much than the licensed software in the same category because you are not going to pay to use it in your business. The other one is how the language support other technologies available in market or in future. Also one is learning & implementations also. I remember how was the VB was easy to learn & implement in applications. just click on the control & you done with the code, but some languages like C, C++ or Java don't provide this facility. You need to learn the topic thoroughly to implement it. All in one, if language having strong features for the business needs and support for other technologies as well as free, it will be more powerful and will get more popularity.

Regards
 
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just click on the control & you done with the code, but some languages like C, C++ or Java don't provide this facility.


Sure they do; even Pascal did.
 
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David Newton wrote:So... you don't really have a reason to dislike C#-the-language, I guess. Fair enough. It is *similar* to Java, but has features Java simply doesn't have and cannot emulate in reasonable ways.

I'm always careful about making comparisons between things when I don't really have a solid understanding of the things I'm comparing.



It's only a personal feeling,as a student i can't learn C# as i would like to because of all the licensed stuff and it's frustrating.
That's why i said that i dislike C#,i never tried to compare Java and C# or criticize C#'s feature because i know that i have limited knowledge.
 
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David Newton wrote:

just click on the control & you done with the code, but some languages like C, C++ or Java don't provide this facility.


Sure they do; even Pascal did.


It's not a language feature, it's an IDE feature. You probably were thinking about Borland Delphi. Borland has created IDEs with graphical designers for C++ and Java as well.
 
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Rob Prime wrote:

David Newton wrote:

just click on the control & you done with the code, but some languages like C, C++ or Java don't provide this facility.


Sure they do; even Pascal did.


It's not a language feature, it's an IDE feature. You probably were thinking about Borland Delphi. Borland has created IDEs with graphical designers for C++ and Java as well.



Hi Rob, Yes, You are right, Sorry I did not mention that. Some good IDE (like Visual Studio from Microsoft) provide good support for language to implement in applications even programmer not having enough knowledge about the language features. See how Eclipse is popular because of open source than other IDE of same category with same and even more features like IntelliJ, JBuilder, JDeveloper, NetBeans etc etc...even Eclipse is not a language, but its a software too same like Java or C#. So free availability of good software helps to increase the popularity of the software too somehow....
 
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Mehdi Ben Larbi wrote:
It's only a personal feeling,as a student i can't learn C# as i would like to because of all the licensed stuff and it's frustrating.
That's why i said that i dislike C#,i never tried to compare Java and C# or criticize C#'s feature because i know that i have limited knowledge.



You do know that that is the origin of the term "sour grapes" right? Someone can't reach the grapes because it is too high, but no matter, it's sour anyway. In this case, you can't reach C# because it's too expensive, but no matter, you don't like it anyway.

Don't mean to be condesending... just pointing out that a phrase like "I don't like" can be deemed as a conclusion, and as you learned, you may be expected to defend that conclusion.

Henry
 
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Rob Prime wrote:

David Newton wrote:

just click on the control & you done with the code, but some languages like C, C++ or Java don't provide this facility.


Sure they do; even Pascal did.


It's not a language feature, it's an IDE feature. You probably were thinking about Borland Delphi. Borland has created IDEs with graphical designers for C++ and Java as well.



Java went through this phase about 10 years ago. This was during the beginning of Java Beans. No need to actually code. Just drag and drop some beans. Config some stuff. And ... the code is autogenerated for you.

Of course, this phase always ends with ... as programs get larger, you get spaghetti code. And when everything is connected with lines and symbols, it actually does look like spaghetti (with meatballs even).

Henry
 
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Henry Wong wrote: . . . You do know that that is the origin of the term "sour grapes" right? . . .

Wasn't that the Aesop fable "the Fox and the Grapes"?
 
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:

Henry Wong wrote: . . . You do know that that is the origin of the term "sour grapes" right? . . .

Wasn't that the Aesop fable "the Fox and the Grapes"?



Yup, that's the one. The fox tried and tried to reach the grapes, but it was too high. And then gave up saying that the grapes were sour anyway.

Henry
 
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Henry Wong wrote:

Rob Prime wrote:

David Newton wrote:

just click on the control & you done with the code, but some languages like C, C++ or Java don't provide this facility.


Sure they do; even Pascal did.


It's not a language feature, it's an IDE feature. You probably were thinking about Borland Delphi. Borland has created IDEs with graphical designers for C++ and Java as well.



Java went through this phase about 10 years ago. This was during the beginning of Java Beans. No need to actually code. Just drag and drop some beans. Config some stuff. And ... the code is autogenerated for you.

Of course, this phase always ends with ... as programs get larger, you get spaghetti code. And when everything is connected with lines and symbols, it actually does look like spaghetti (with meatballs even).

Henry



Yes, 10 Yrs ago we were having drag n' drop features in JavaBeans. Even JavaBeans has been changed totally now a days...But JavaBeans not completes the Java language. Its only a part of Java, Java is much bigger to work with..We have lots of J2EE, J2ME technologies that are Java too....
 
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Andrew Monkhouse wrote:

Vishal Kashyap wrote:C# is also a platform Independent language


It's only truly platform independent if you count Microsoft Windows XP as a different platform to Microsoft Windows 7 and they are both different platforms from Microsoft Windows Vista ...

Try and get a copy of the Microsoft .Net CLI for any non-Microsoft platform: not going to happen. The best you can hope for is the independently created Mono and DotGNU systems. And even then you have to hope that these independent developers have implemented enough of the Microsoft .Net CLI to meet your needs; and that they have either developed a release for your platform or that you can compile it yourself on your platform; and that they have not infringed on any of Microsoft's IP (which could get them shut down).

As others have mentioned, there are some really good things about C#, and different requirements call for different tools.



---------------------------------------------------------------------

I work with Java and also with C#, and really both have their unique flavors
to say one is better another WELL would mean you're missing something
Mono Project and done a wonderful job and they've been so FAR consistent
 
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Jimmy Clark wrote:

Mainframe COBOL executes MILLIONS OF INSTRUCTIONS PER SECOND...that is MILLIONS in a single second. A JRE will never be able to compete with this



The newest mainframes execute tens of BILLIONS of instructions per second. See http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2010/09/02/49372/ibm-worlds-fastest-computer-chip.htm ... "the core zEnterprise 196 server in the system contains 96 of the world's fastest microprocessors, capable of executing more than 50 billion instructions per second,"... "With associated software changes, IBM is claiming up to a 60% improvement in data intensive and Java workloads from its machine". IBM has long been a proponent of Java and their mainframes include a JVM. I would expect a language compiled to native machine code like COBOL to outperform a JIT language like Java though, regardless of platform. COBOL works great for a banking environment where high speed transaction processing is a must. Having said that, I personally hate maintaining our old COBOL code.
 
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It's only a personal feeling,as a student i can't learn C# as i would like to because of all the licensed stuff and it's frustrating.
That's why i said that i dislike C#,i never tried to compare Java and C# or criticize C#'s feature because i know that i have limited knowledge.



As a student, you may be able to obtain Visual Studio for free through MSDN-AA or Dreamspark.
 
David Newton
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Mark Kramer wrote:I would expect a language compiled to native machine code like COBOL to outperform a JIT language like Java though, regardless of platform.


That's potentially not true at all, depending on a bunch of factors. Besides normal static compilation optimizations, JVMs like HotSpot will optimize the code paths as it actually runs, providing an additional level of optimization. Java is *very* fast these days.
 
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I think java is more original than C# and secondly it is an open source which makes is more popular and famous.
 
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Kaustubh G Sharma wrote:I think java is more original than C# and secondly it is an open source which makes is more popular and famous.



I understand that C# and .NET is open source if you're into Microsoft's "what is your's is mine and what is mine is mine" open source philosophy.

Do remember though that Java (Sun's Java) was not opened sourced until recently, but did have open source versions based on it. Just like C# has Mono.
 
Kaustubh G Sharma
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I understand that C# and .NET is open source if you're into Microsoft's "what is your's is mine and what is mine is mine" open source philosophy



 
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Between two object oriented languages, the comparison like the one here brings up an interesting issue.

Should we not stick to solve a problem using well established object oriented principles, which are common denominator of all oo programming languages, and not to idiosyncracies of one language or the other?

If we don't follow the above principle, the purpose of MDA will be somewhat defeated.

An analogy can be found in databases that implement SQL but also bring in their idiosyncratic idioms: if one uses those, then their SQL becomes non-portable.

If we try to stick to object orientation, then probably we can transgress boundaries of languages.

Hope, the above makes sense.
 
David Newton
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If we try to stick to object orientation, then probably we can transgress boundaries of languages.


That's not really true, though, except in the most general sense.

Besides that there are different ways to do object orientation, different OO languages *do* bring different functionality to the table, and provide different programming constructs to work within.
 
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I think .NET Is also open source. Only thing is we have pay for the Visual studio IDE . Vs pro is around $799. But we have netbeans,eclipse are free of cost. But I suppose both are not as effective as vs IDE . you can download .NET FROM MICROSOFT WEBSITE and start programming using notepad. Nobody will say anything to you. I don't know Why oracle-Sun hasn't come up with Such a beautiful IDE...what's the problem ? Is there a rule that free tag should make the IDE look inferior.

Anyway as far as "features" are concerned , i think C# looks better since it is a late comer and studied the Java loop holes better but since oracle has taken up the issue of java , I believe they will not take the competition easy with microsoft and will soon and very very soon catch up with .NET.
Struts is upgrading itself like asp.net so both are same. But sharepoint is robust and very fast development platform for webapps but you have to lots of programming there also and sharepoint comes with very heavy price tag so people again look for better option like php, asp.net and stuts.

AS FAr as money is concerned "expertise" gives money not "technology" . Both java and .net will give you money. Join big companies for more money or work as a part time freelancer for multiple projects for more money. I heard that for a good header image , flash developers will be paid around $80, for a single "header" template. So money can be earned Just like that if you are good with technology.

If you are thinking about ease of use then initially .net can be easy but i think with complex apps every language becomes difficult.
 
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sasank manohar wrote:I think .NET Is also open source. Only thing is we have pay for the Visual studio IDE . Vs pro is around $799. But we have netbeans,eclipse are free of cost. But I suppose both are not as effective as vs IDE . you can download .NET FROM MICROSOFT WEBSITE and start prog

.net framework is Open source if you are using Windows (which is not Open Source )

 
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