This weeks book Giveaway:

[Carl Trusiak]

We are giving away 4 copies of the book : Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns. The best part, the Author, Dave Kane, is online to answer our questions
Read my review in the Bunkhouse Design Patterns UML and Refactoring
Please read the Book Peromotion for qualification details.
Thanks to the people at Prentice Hall for the books
[This message has been edited by Carl Trusiak (edited November 13, 2001).]

[Guillaume Compagnon]

Welcome Dave!
Do U plan to write another book ? if yes, what will be the topic?
On the Carl's review, he talks about Allaire XPeriences, is it your own ?

[Guillaume Compagnon]

You talk about VRAPS principle (Vision, Rhythm, Anticipation, Partnering and Simplification Patterns)
that sounds like for me GRASP (General Responsibility Assignment Software Patterns) from my ex-CTO Craig Larman. Have U read the book (applying UML ...) and do U have any opinion about this other bundle?

[Anonymous]

Welcome David,
Can u tell me that how can this book will be used to identify pit falls or gives more clarity to me to develop a good architecture.
Now i am designing a system for one of my client. can this book helps me in this regard.
Thanks
~Kumar

[Balaji Loganathan]

Welcome to JavaRanch Dave!!!
Hope we gonna have a good time with you
Regards
Balaji

Originally posted by Carl Trusiak:
We are giving away 4 copies of the book : Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns. The best part, the Author, Dave Kane, is online to answer our questions
13, 2001).]

[Michael Fernandes]

Welcome David & Carl,
I wanted to know if the book talks about (or makes use of) all the concepts of OO, UML & Refactoring. Which are the main concepts that this book is centered on?
Will you please shower some light on this part?

[Michael Fernandes]

Carl,
At your review page, you are talking about Anti-Patterns. May I know what are anti-paterns?

[Ian Lockwood]

Hi Dave,
Who is your book aimed at? I am a final year degree student and am trying, with little success, to find patterns in an application I am designing for my final year project. I have bought the Shalloway and Trott book Design Patterns Explained and it has helped me a bit but I am still struglling with the concept and recognition of patterns in my design models. Will your book help me do you think?
Ian
[This message has been edited by Ian Lockwood (edited November 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ian Lockwood (edited November 13, 2001).]

[Guillaume Compagnon]

Originally posted by Michael Fernandes:
Carl,
At your review page, you are talking about Anti-Patterns. May I know what are anti-paterns?

Patterns are what you can do to improve an architecture, to design a new project
Anti-Patterns are what you need to evict when you want to make good design.
Anti-Patterns are the name of a book.
regards

[David Kane]

Guillaume,
Another book? Not until nostalgia sets in :+)
As for the experiences at Allaire, one of my co-authors, Jim Wilson was working with a product-line using Cold Fusion. And so some of the Cold Fusion material in the book reflects his first-hand-experience. We also conducted a case study, in which we spoke to many of folks at Allaire, including the founders JJ and Jeremy Allaire, their chief architect, engineers, etc. We also spoke to other Allaire developers.

Originally posted by Guillaume Compagnon:
Welcome Dave!
Do U plan to write another book ? if yes, what will be the topic?
On the Carl's review, he talks about Allaire XPeriences, is it your own ?

Dave

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Kumar,
The book will help you identify organizational issues that could derail your architecture. Technically great architectures can and do fail, and it is often the dynamics of the organizations that build and use them that are at the heart of the problem. These are the sorts of issues addressed by the book. For example, the book will help you identify warning signs that there are problems with other organizations with whom you are partnering. The book does not explicitly address design issues of particular architectures.
Dave

Originally posted by Kumar RK:
Welcome David,
Can u tell me that how can this book will be used to identify pit falls or gives more clarity to me to develop a good architecture.

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Michael,
Guillaume captured some of the essential elements of antipatterns. In our book, we focus on problems organizations get themselves stuck in. Sometimes an antipattern is just a bad solution applied within an organization. Sometimes an antipattern is an otherwise fine solution applied in the wrong context.
Dave

Originally posted by Michael Fernandes:
Carl,
At your review page, you are talking about Anti-Patterns. May I know what are anti-paterns?

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Ian,
Our book is aimed at people who have a stake in software architecture. This not only includes architects and their managers, but developers, and even executives who are investing in architecture. If you are struggling with the concepts of patterns themselves, e.g. what's a good pattern look like, what are forces, etc. you may find the book useful because the pattern form is used throughout. We also have a model chapter to explain how the various pieces of the book fit together. The book will probably not help you grok design issues though.

Originally posted by Ian Lockwood:
Hi Dave,
Who is your book aimed at? I am a final year degree student and am trying, with little success, to find patterns in an application I am designing for my final year project. I have bought the Shalloway and Trott book Design Patterns Explained and it has helped me a bit but I am still struglling with the concept and recognition of patterns in my design models. Will your book help me do you think?
Ian

Dave

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Michael,
The book focuses on organizational issues. To give an example that relates back to your question, we mention refactoring briefly. It is one thing to refactor interfaces that are only accessed within code that you control. However, when you have an architecture that is used across organizations, what happens when you want to refactor an interface that has been exposed to your partners? How do you communicate with them? What kind of timing in your change will minimize disruption? Many of the examples refer to OO software development projects, but we do not cover OO and UML per se. There are already a great many books on that subject.
Dave

Originally posted by Michael Fernandes:
Carl,
At your review page, you are talking about Anti-Patterns. May I know what are anti-paterns?

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[Dave Van Even]

just wish I had money to buy your book Yesterday I went for a job interview. I think my Java knowledge is fine; they asked some questions, I answered them all right. But when they asked about OO design & UML etc.. I flunked bigtime..
so; no job -> no money -> no books to study this -> no job -> no money -> no books ...
The last months I have studied from every book/site I got.. I'm getting tired.. sorry.. but I'm sad
So; I can't ask you a question..

[Tiger Scott]

Dave:
At what level you are address the organizational issue. I do undersatnd IT is a central pillar of all organizations now. What are you proposing IT Managers do to handle issues?
Thanks
Sanjay

[Tiger Scott]

Dave Van Even:
The job market is bad. You have to stand out- UML/OO etc are essentials today. Books etc can also be found in libraries. I am sure there would be pleanty in your neighbourhood.
Just keep plugging away,
HTH
Sanjay

[Fei Ng]

Welcome author Dave,
welcome to javaranch.
Another Software Architecture designer and a book author here to answer our questions. So happy.
[This message has been edited by FEI NG (edited November 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by FEI NG (edited November 13, 2001).]

[Fei Ng]

Originally posted by Dave Van Even:
just wish I had money to buy your book Yesterday I went for a job interview. I think my Java knowledge is fine; they asked some questions, I answered them all right. But when they asked about OO design & UML etc.. I flunked bigtime..
so; no job -> no money -> no books to study this -> no job -> no money -> no books ...
The last months I have studied from every book/site I got.. I'm getting tired.. sorry.. but I'm sad
So; I can't ask you a question..

Dave Van, don't feel bad!!! I am sure you will have your luck on another interview soon.
no job -> no money -> no books
I feel your pain!! heheheehe...

what job position were you interview for?
What did they ask about OOD and UML?
[This message has been edited by FEI NG (edited November 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by FEI NG (edited November 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by FEI NG (edited November 13, 2001).]

[Fei Ng]

Dear Author David,
How do you compare your book to Design Patterns
by Erich Gamma, Richard Helm, Ralph Johnson, John Vlissides
and
Design Patterns Explained: A New Perspective on Object-Oriented Design
by Alan Shalloway, James R. Trott
I am learning Patterns and Design Patterns explained helped me a lot on how to apply them and GoF has a lot of info on patterns.
And how do you see Refactoring???
Is it as important as pattern? Should someone new learning Patterns consider learning Refactoring? I don't hear Refactoring that offen but enough for me to wonder if i should learn it.
Silly question?

[BILAL HAMEED]

HIII dave
the name of the book is software architechture,principles and practices. my question to u is does it really covers the principles and practices of the software architechture.furthermore do do the principles really exists. if yes are there any standards for them like ISO etc. that is is any organisation in industry working to develop some principles or not

[BILAL HAMEED]

the reason why i asked these questions is because i m working on an assignment to develop and draft principles,best practices and guidelines for our company relating to software development process, software quality assurance, software testing, software architecture etc and we are desparatly looking for material to help us out in our assignment

[BILAL HAMEED]

sorry dave
i was so overwhelmed to find you here that i didnt even said hello to u any way hello and nice to have you with us. can you further answer that how on the related subject have you previously written

[BILAL HAMEED]

Dave you have mentioned that the book also covers refactoring. how important a role does refactoring play in effective and efficient architectures.
questions questions questions!!!

[BILAL HAMEED]

wow i was really amazed to see that this has a five star rating at amazon.com. must be a special one.guess i m buying it. offcourse if i failed to win it

[raj sekhar]

Welcome Dave.
Wow, the reviews are really good and so are the ratings on Amazon. Though I understand that you have used case studies, I am wondering if the book contains real world examples for all the patterns discussed.This pretty much helps the understanding the core distinguising factor between some of the closely associated patterns.
Thanks
Raj

[ruilin yang]

Dave,
Thanks for you comments on legacy integration. I have another question about design.
I found Data model from ER modelling has a lots influence to software architecture design. Does your book have a large coverage on this aspect ?
Thanks,
Ruilin

[Abdul Basit]

hii
all nice to have dave with us

[David Kane]

I'd second this suggestion. I've seen several announcements, mostly from University Libraries, that have acquired copies of the book for their collections. I'm sure there are other useful books too that you can learn from as well.

Originally posted by Sanjay Bahal:
Books etc can also be found in libraries.
Sanjay

I should also point out that there are several pieces of the book are available freely on the web. It won't be the complete picture, but it might provide some fodder for this discussion.
Dana Bredemeyer has a pretty site devoted to software architecture. The preface, and one chapter is online at http://www.bredemeyer.com/papers.htm. Amazon also has a number of sample pages from the book. Lastly, we wrote an article earlier this year for the Cutter IT Journal, that was based on the Rhythm chapter in the book. That article is online as well.
Dave
------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
[This message has been edited by David Kane (edited November 14, 2001).]

[David Kane]

Fei,
In comparison to GoF, I'd say that we are using a similar technique to solve a different problem. While we both use patterns as a way of describing solutions to recurring problems, in our case we are focusing on the problems of the organization, not the design.

Originally posted by FEI NG:
How do you compare your book to Design Patterns
by Erich Gamma, Richard Helm, Ralph Johnson, John Vlissides and Design Patterns Explained: A New Perspective on Object-Oriented Design
by Alan Shalloway, James R. Trott

I think refactoring is particularly important. It is very rare that we get to program with a clean slate, and even then, once we start, our slate is not longer clean anymore. So I think everyone who has done any programming can relate to the topic of improving existing code.
Secondly, I think Fowler's book is very good. From his categorization of smells, to his coverage of automated unit testing, to the tangible guidance for the actual refactorings, I think it is all very good. I teach a call at my firm called "Pretty Good Techniques for Java Progammers" and it is one of the topics that I felt was important to include. I think patterns are still important. (Those are covered in the class too) In particular, I think a knowledge of patterns give you a broader perspective of your application that helps give you a sense of direction.
Dave

Originally posted by FEI NG:

And how do you see Refactoring???
Is it as important as pattern? Should someone new learning Patterns consider learning Refactoring? I don't hear Refactoring that offen but enough for me to wonder if i should learn it.
Silly question?

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Bilal,
Interesting question. There are a couple layers to it. Our book is organized around 5 principles:
* Vision
* Rhythm
* Anticipation
* Partnering
* Simplification
We believe these "really exist" and we have spent a long time developing them. We've conducted case studies at leading organizations including Hewlett-Packard, Nortel and Allaire. We also involved other experts in developing them including Grady Booch and Robert Charette. So I hope that you will find them credible and believable.
I should point out however, that in the field of software architecture, there is another use of the term principle. It is loosly-speaking a design goal of a particular architecture. Dana Bredemeyer covers the subject in his software architecture material. There is a template for defining what he means by this on his site, http://www.bredemeyer.com
Lastly, you asked about standards. There is some IEEE work in this field. IEEE-1471 is the IEEE Recommended Practice for Architectural Descriptions of Software Intensive Systems. We do not directly cover this in the book, but we do use their definition of architecture.
Dave

Originally posted by BILAL HAMEED:
HIII dave
the name of the book is software architechture,principles and practices. my question to u is does it really covers the principles and practices of the software architechture.furthermore do do the principles really exists. if yes are there any standards for them like ISO etc. that is is any organisation in industry working to develop some principles or not

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Sanjay,
What kind of issues do you mean?
Dave

posted by Sanjay Bahal:
Dave:
At what level you are address the organizational issue. I do undersatnd IT is a central pillar of all organizations now. What are you proposing IT Managers do to handle issues?
Thanks
Sanjay

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Raj,
We conducted a case study at Allaire for the book. That case study gets its own chapter. We also conducted several mult-site case studies in our work that lead up to the book, and stories from those are collected througout. In particular, all of the patterns have an example of the pattern being use in the real world.
I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that one of the chapters is online, and we have an article based on the chapter as well. You can take a look at the patterns and you can get a sense for what a mean.
Dave

Originally posted by raj sekhar:
Welcome Dave.
Wow, the reviews are really good and so are the ratings on Amazon. Though I understand that you have used case studies, I am wondering if the book contains real world examples for all the patterns discussed.This pretty much helps the understanding the core distinguising factor between some of the closely associated patterns.
Thanks
Raj

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[David Kane]

Ruilan,
We do not directly address that subject. The question of modeling does come up in the Vision chapter a bit, but we do not discuss the implcations of Data models per se.
Dave

Originally posted by ruilin yang:
Dave,
I found Data model from ER modelling has a lots influence to software architecture design. Does your book have a large coverage on this aspect ?

------------------
David Kane
[email protected]
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com

[BILAL HAMEED]

hiii dave you mentioned about the principles can mention/categorize the list of resources avaliable on these principles on web or other media if there exists any
-----------------------------------------------------------------
posted by Dave Kane
Interesting question. There are a couple layers to it. Our book is organized around 5 principles:
* Vision
* Rhythm
* Anticipation
* Partnering
* Simplification
We believe these "really exist" and we have spent a long time developing them. We've conducted case studies at leading organizations including Hewlett-Packard, Nortel and Allaire. We also involved other experts in developing them including Grady Booch and Robert Charette. So I hope that you will find them credible and believable.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[BILAL HAMEED]

Dave
you said that ur book is organized around 5 principles. does there exists any more principles .If yes can you mention them. Further more can you briefly describe as what these principles really are
-----------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Dave
Our book is organized around 5 principles:
* Vision
* Rhythm
* Anticipation
* Partnering
* Simplification
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Fei Ng]

dear author,
"In comparison to GoF, I'd say that we are using a similar technique to solve a different problem. While we both use patterns as a way of describing solutions to recurring problems, in our case we are focusing on the problems of the organization, not the design."
thanks for your respond
Problems of the organizatioin, can you give a example on that?
With patterns in your book, it shows how to use them instead of implementing them?

[BILAL HAMEED]

hiiiiiii
Dave did you answer this question. if yes than yyy cant i find anything
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BILAL HAMEED:
Dave
you said that ur book is organized around 5 principles. does there exists any more principles .If yes can you mention them. Further more can you briefly describe as what these principles really are

[BILAL HAMEED]

dear Dave
do software architectures also have patterns???

[Guennadiy VANIN]

Anybody,
can explain me why this thread has a record number of posts and nobody shows up to answer Dave's question in http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000822.html?? Just VERY curious
Carl,
after reading your review in the Bunkhouse Design Patterns UML and Refactoring
, I would like to know if this book is useful just for programmer (I am not inside mentioned positions and prefer blowing up the current experience)?
[This message has been edited by G Vanin (edited November 15, 2001).]