Model Driven Architecture forum

[Helen Thomas]

Is this the right forum for Model Driven Architecture questions ?

Is MDA a competing technology to say, Web Services or a layer above it and therefore inclusive of?
[ July 12, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Stan James]

Yes, there have been some MDA discussions here before and more would be welcome. Grady Booch has an article advocating MDA in the new Software Development but you have to remember he's making money on Rose. I'd say only somewhat seriously that it's a technology in competition with junior programmers.

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Stan James:
I'd say only somewhat seriously that it's a technology in competition with junior programmers.

[Helen Thomas]

Ok point taken.

The view of the OMG is to raise Software Development from handicrafts to an engineering discipline. In pretty much the same way an architect today works on blueprints to make modifications or evolve another product.
Few people who have commisioned a building reject it on completion but it happens all too often in the software industry.

YOu could argue that there hasn't been much variety in the design of buildings lately.
[ July 13, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Helen Thomas:
The view of the OMG is to raise Software Development from handicrafts to an engineering discipline. In pretty much the same way an architect today works on blueprints to make modifications or evolve another product.
Few people who have commisioned a building reject it on completion but it happens all too often in the software industry.

YOu could argue that there hasn't been much variety in the design of buildings lately.

Exactly - and the really innovative buildings are often, guess what, late and over budget... :roll:

The reason for most engineering disciplines to do so much up front planning is that iteration is slow and costly - try to refactor a scyscraper. Actually there is some effort to make iteration faster and cheaper, by using simulations and knew materials, to replace part of the planning by experimentation and therefore allow more rapid innovation.

[Ilja Preuss]

Forgot to mention: There are people who say that MDA *could* be done in an Agile way. Can't comment on that notion, though.

[Stan James]

I misplaced the mag before I read Grady's article, but I'm pretty sure there were headings about doing agile, iterative stuff. You'd have to get the code-test cycle down into the seconds to please a lot of today's agile folk. I'm using a vendor product that says "MDA" in their literature but it's really just code generation from Rose. Or is that all MDA is? Anyhow, the model-export-generate-integrate-compile-test cycle is more like a half hour than a few seconds.

[franco martinig]

Methods and Tools published an article "Understanding the Model Driven Architecture (MDA)". This article describes the Model Driven Architecture, an OMG standard for software development.

http://www.methodsandtools.com/archive/archive.php?id=5

[Junilu Lacar]

I just found out that Jon Kern, one of the authors of the Agile Manifesto is coming to our local XP Users Group (Columbus OH) meeting on August 18.

From the announcement:

"Jon will describe a pragmatic "distilled" usage of MDA concepts that has high project value when combined with visual tool support. He will discuss where UML and MDA overlap, and will dismiss the "Silver Bullet" theory that often accompanies design and development tools. Jon doesn�t blow smoke� he is a pragmatic engineer at heart.

Along the way, Jon will discuss three simple keys to software development success that you should be practicing in every engagement:

� Separation of Concerns (It�s the Business!)

� Duality of Architectures (Consistent Construction)

� Agile development

Understanding where these keys can be used in your development organizationBring along any favorite war story about a failed or stressed project � and Jon will point out where the project failed to follow one of his three keys to success."


Jon is currently on Compuware Corporation's OptimalJ team. I already have a few questions that I want to ask him and if there's anything in particular that you would like me to ask him, please tell me and I'll try to get them to him during the meeting. I have a special interest in attending this meeting, being a former Compuware employee and currently considering joining one of their biggest projects on which OptimalJ and its MDA capabilities are being used.

If I get enough questions, we might even publish an interview with Jon in a future edition of the JavaRanch Journal.

[ July 19, 2004: Message edited by: Junilu Lacar ]
[ July 19, 2004: Message edited by: Junilu Lacar ]

[Ilja Preuss]

I would be very much interested in the point Stan already raised: How does the tight feedback loop work in MDA? Can you test-drive a model? How else do you know that it works?

[Junilu Lacar]

Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
Can you test-drive a model? How else do you know that it works?

Already have questions along these lines. Like minds...

I'll look through other discussions here and elsewhere and present a line up of questions for comment. Hopefully this way we can maximize the value to ranchers.

[Junilu Lacar]

Here's some more stuff from the announcement for Jon's presentation. Maybe this will bring on some more questions.

----
How to move your game to the next level when building non-trivial systems:

� If your software is not a strategic asset, could it be?

� Does technology rule your decisions, or does business?

� If you think there is a career to be had in mapping columns, in doing deployment descriptors, and banging out repetitive code � think again.

� If your development does not include lots of repetitive, boring code creation � you are doing something wrong.

� If you think learning the ins-and-outs of the latest and greatest technology is the only key to survival � you�re wrong.

� If you think clients are asking for cool infrastructure, stateless session beans, or even relational databases, think again. They want business value not technology!

� If you think that your development teams are providing optimal value, then you are among the rarified few. Could it be better?

� If you think that management is even allowing you to provide optimal value, then look around to see if you are given adequate management support and slack time to �do the right thing� for long-term business gain for the enterprise. Bring your manager, and your manager�s manager!

� If you think agile development can only be achieved by starting at the code level, go ahead, keep typing. I�ll race you!

� If you think using tools that reduce billable hours is a bad thing, you�re kidding, right?

� If you think that modeling has nothing to do with agile development, step aside.

Model-Driven Development can bring incredible tactical and strategic value to your development organization � if you understand the power. At the end of his presentation, Jon will provide a glimpse into how one tool can help accelerate development efforts and provide ways to do more with less.

[Helen Thomas]

At the end of his presentation, Jon will provide a glimpse into how one tool can help accelerate development efforts and provide ways to do more with less.

Junilu, do you know which tool that might be ? OptimalJ I presume.

pointers which I am sure will raise many questions.

[Jon Kern]

Helen: yes, optimalj is what i have installed on my box, so i guess i'll show the concepts "in action" with that tool

BTW, i don't choose my tools lightly. I chose Together/C++ in 1994 and spent nearly 10 years with it (building/specing much of what you see today).

BTW2: A fool with a tool is still a fool...

Ilja:

I would be very much interested in the point Stan already raised: How does the tight feedback loop work in MDA? Can you test-drive a model? How else do you know that it works?

and

...There are people who say that MDA *could* be done in an Agile way.

Related questions...

If it didn't support agile development, I wouldn't be here (or there, for that matter).

It's all about getting results

deliver frequent, tangible, working results

get early and frequent feedback

build on sound architecture

build on an agile architecture

build in a consistent manner

keep stakeholders/customers at the fore

[Scott Ambler]

You might find my writings about Agile MDA at http://www.agilemodeling.com/essays/agileMDA.htm to be of interest.

I really question the viability of the MDA, see my thoughts on the subject at http://www.agilemodeling.com/essays/mda.htm.

Grady Booch recently wrote a quasi-rebuttal in Software Development ( http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=9224/sdm0408a/sdm0408a.html) to my newsletter on the subject several months ago ( http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=6977/sdmam0204/sdmam0204.html ). We clearly differ on the subject, although then again I don't work for a CASE tool vendor, although my advice is always that you should think about it for yourselves.

- Scott

[Junilu Lacar]

Scott,

Do you mind if I borrow some of the questions you have in your articles for the interview with Jon?

[Junilu Lacar]

Well, I got to sit and talk with Jon yesterday after his presentation at the Columbus XP Users Group meeting. I taped an hour's worth of our conversation although I think we ran out of tape towards the end of it. At any rate, I hope to be able to transcribe the interview an have excerpts of it in the next JavaRanch journal. Stay tuned...

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Junilu Lacar:
Well, I got to sit and talk with Jon yesterday after his presentation at the Columbus XP Users Group meeting. I taped an hour's worth of our conversation although I think we ran out of tape towards the end of it. At any rate, I hope to be able to transcribe the interview an have excerpts of it in the next JavaRanch journal. Stay tuned...

[Junilu Lacar]

IP:

Yes, it was cool. Jon seems to take a very pragmatic approach to MDA. When I asked him what sold him on MDA he replied (paraphrased) that it wasn't so much MDA as it was the tool (OptimalJ). Apparently, when Compuware was trying to get him on board he told them something like (again I'm paraphrasing) "I don't want to read any of your marketing materials, just give me a key [to install the product]. I was surprised to see that it did a lot of things I've been doing for many years."

At the very least, he convinced me to at least take a harder look at what tools like OJ have to offer.
[ August 19, 2004: Message edited by: Junilu Lacar ]