Bob E. Lee

I came from QA/QC background so had done some 24/7 support also. usually 24/7 means you work in shift (3 shift is the norm). But you may be on call which means 3am FIRE FIRE FIRE!!

from support or tester you see more business rule (business knowledge), when you work with users. I guess it depend on the track if you trying to follow.

best of luck

Originally posted by Ragupathi Natarajan:
I would like to make a point here from a production support analyst point of view.I think the below are the main advantages of being in support.
* You will get a oppurtunity to understand the business process very closely.
* You are analytical skill,technical will improve.
* You will come to know the holistic view of the whoole project.

I know many of the designers, architects, consulatants in my company are started their career as a production support analyst.They have very good knowledge of technical as well as business.
We may work in various technologies, but at the end of the day everybody is delevering for business.So defenitely business knowledge would be beneficial.

I would suggest you to work as a production support analyst for some time before you become a designer.

Cheers
Raghu

thank you Mark and Mike's reply.

if you do good work the "old" client will usually come back to you. If you have some type of rule or "contract" setup the client will understand what is expacted and the cost, everyone is happy.

so far this is what I came up with, if it's email for quick answer I'll be happy to answer during my free time (could be same day or not) and it's no charge. But a phone call ...they gotta cover my cell phone bill :-)

I think it's fair, so they will "think" about the question before they call me. No No... don't burn any bridge. it'll come full circle around and kick you in the butt!

happy coding everyone!

Hi Mark,

thanks for the reply! Sometimes the question are on things that are in the documention after 4-5 times I think it's getting old. If you walk them through on the phone it could take 1/2 hour... and I did it free because I enjoy supporting what I have built. It's just getting out of hand that is why I would like to start billing them, not because I love to charge my client.

Actually two of my previous client did agree to the idea of continue support per "issue" base. I am not sure what is consider an issue yet. I figure if I spend 10 mintues on the phone/email let's say your hourly is $60 (easy math) so I can bill $10? Does that sound about right?

thank you for the input,

Bob

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Unless you have a signed contract with them, you're going to have trouble collecting what you think they owe you.

If you feel they've gone beyond a transition period (e.g. a few questions where the new guy just hasn't been there long enough to know) and you feel that you should be compensated, you should contact your previous manager and propose a consulting raangement with him. Negotiate an hourly rate and billing cycle (e.g. you send them one bill very month). He he disagrees, stop taking their calls and emails.

--Mark

I had done some contracting for a few years in the past,but currently I turned full time. I would like to do part-time contract/consultant but only during off hour/weekend. But my past client from time to time will call/email me for a few questions (sometimes their new contractor called me too). I am usually pretty good about answer their questions, but I start to realize instead of contract me part-time they hire somebody else... and I still have to answer questions.

should I bill them for the "support"? How do I bill phone/email support do I use the mintues base on my hourly rate? I figure if I spend 20 mintues on the my cell phone the least I can do is pay for my mintues (in the U.S we have to paid for incoming call also).

thanks Ken, I think I should post in Java General... but I was thinking for Desktop application, that was why I post here. perhaps the admin can help me move this post? didn't want to repeat post.

Originally posted by Ken Blair:
I would say you can follow pretty much the same if not exactly the same guidelines. I would also say that I am definitely not an expert. This seems more a general Java question better suited for the Intermediate forum though as it really has nothing to with Swing, but Java in general.

Hi, I have worked on some web project and "try" to follow the recommended directory structuring for creating apps. I am now looking forward to do some desktop (swing) apps and was wondering if the directory structure is similar?

here is an artical "Java Blueprints Guidelines" but it's seems to be for web project. http://java.sun.com/blueprints/code/projectconventions.html

I figure it's probably the same, but just wondering if some of expert can give some suggestion /input.

thank you! this is a great place to learn!

Robert

I agree w/ kay Liew, with SCJP can get you any programming job!
I got mine SCJP about three years ago... end up working with VB/VBA

Now I slowly push the "Java" part of my skill into my work place. It's not easy to get manager to try new things. also nice to have additonal skills.. Certificate is always great way to show you have "learn" about a technology.

Best of luck,

Bob

Originally posted by Kay Liew:
You will have a better chance than fresh college graduate who has no working experience. With the cert, you have proven to have a basic knowledge about Java and plenty knowledge that not used in real world. Second, you have shown you passion toward the technology. I think enthusiast towards a particular technology is the most valuable. So, with the cert. you have a better chance of getting into any programming jobs industry (not just java).

Yep "bein with the end in mind" a goal of sometype....or get your feet in first, show you are worth more... or to gain some experience...

here is an artcal on how to "Ask your boss for more" kinda fun to read
http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/21/pf/jobs_raise_0411/index.htm

wish u the best (wish everyone in javaranch the best!).

Bob

Originally posted by shay Aluko:

My advice to you is to "begin with the end in mind"--where do you see yourself in five years , tem years etc. I have been there and I have worked in biggest companies out there. Staking your career on Java or some transient technology is a mistake.I my honest opinion, you are looking to stake your career on something that's a commodity. You would have been better off taking the time to get a some industry specific education like a
an degree finance/accounting/healthcare etc than pounding the pavement to get a job that is in danger of being offshored.
just my $.02

I agree w/ Warren's way of explaining the data. Rishi if you took any statistic class you'll understand there is alot of factor(s) can affect the "number". I also took a deep cut after the bubble and had to take a job working with VB instead of Java (gotta pay the bill). It's no fun out there... but you gotta keep on trying. hmmm isn't IBM outsoucing part of their consultant group?

If you use a bigger pool of sampling size such as this artical http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/26/pf/college/pay/ from CNN gives you some more salary information.

Best of luck,

Originally posted by Warren Dew:

I think the key statistic from the Berkeley data is this: in 2000, 73% of the graduates got jobs, and only 8% were looking but hadn't got one; in 2003, only 41% got jobs, and 26% were looking but hadn't got one. And I have to believe that some who looked for jobs and didn't get them, instead didn't turn in the survey (the response rate dropped from 56% to 46%) or went to grad school or "other endeavors" instead (went from 12% to 26%). So I think the 2003 salaries listed are inflated, because Berkeley isn't averaging in the zero salaries of people who don't have jobs.

To put it another way, if you interpolate/extrapolate the median salary for the 81% actually looking for jobs in 2000, along with the 67% actually looking in 2003, you get something like the following:

2000: $61,241 -- inflated by bubble
2003: $44,796 -- deflated by burst

If you look at all respondents, only 45% in 2003 have jobs, so the median is unemployed, or maybe living on a graduate school stipend - in either case far less than $45k. $60k is not a reasonable estimate of the "market rate" in this environment - $40k actually sounds much closer.

I would add a couple of things:

The formatting and layout of your resume seems good. However, when I read it, it seems devoid of actual Java coding - JSP doesn't really count. Your resume actually looks stronger on the database side. If you truly love programming in Java, I'd recommend spending some time writing Java programs, even if for free - join an open source project, or find a good cause and start one yourself, or even just work on something you'd enjoy doing as a private project.

The other thing I would recommend is leaving the customer support work for the work with CIS. At least you'll be programming and gaining experience with working with real code in a production environment, even if it's not in your favorite language. And since it's a contract position, you needn't feel guilty about leaving in six months or a year if you get a better offer.

(And if any of CIS's clients get successful enough that they need to move to something more robust than PHP/MySQL, you'll be in a good position to help them move to Java/Oracle.)[/QB]

Right after I took SCJP I got a job doing M$'s VB stuffs, NO JAVA. not long after I got a side job of doing admin type of task. Now I'm planning to take A+ who knowz

Not sure if I'm doing it to pay the bills or just for fun

But it's always nice to "enjoy" the challenge.

cheers

Hey Kevin,
sounds like you did well enough to "get notice"! That is soooo important these days. sorry to hear about the pay... I'm not doing that much better. I have 2 jobs to help pay the bills damn student loan. As for how much to charge... it depend on what you are doing (EJB or just JSP direct call to db?)
I think one of my friend charge like $20 per hr for web page design (include graphic or flash) w/ no call to the backend. btw, 20 is probably low but just think of experience and the networking you are doing.
Just like Chess -what is your next move?

cheers

thx everyone for sharing...
it's kinda sad to read the above message, but life goes on.
I too got SCJP my background is 2 yrs in Java w/ Oracle as the back-end. After long job search I end up doing VB/VBA w/ MS Access as the back-end. it pays the bills.
I remember one "wise" man said... "it's easier to found a job when you got a job". Go figure! From my M$ job I got "refer" to a part-time supporting a small company's applications and hardwares.
oh btw, I hate it when people said the "job market is getting better"! Because the person who said that is usually the person who HAS a job. I feel your pain -- don't give up!
peace out~

I agree with Ron. You can't control others you can only control yourself. If the person is really that bad soon or later they'll figure it out maybe after a $1M project haa haa good luck.
Bob

Originally posted by Ron Moddesette:
I can understand your frustration with the job situation. I would suggest working on your communication and people skills. If you can't convey your technical knowledge to the people who are hiring, they'll never know what they're missing.
Your comments on the Polish guy are irrelevant to finding a job. The office politics you are describing are present in every industry as politics are just part of the human condition.
Good luck.

yes, remember to sleep well. get there early so you can get use to the testing area (i.e. too hot or cold). the place I took it was too hot... but after my body adjust it was fine.
Cheers.
Bob

thx for the information. I'm not sure what exam to take next yet. but this one seems interesting

Originally posted by keerthidhar dongre:
Product certifications? hmm. They dont seem to be as hot as certifications related to a Language or Operating System or a Database. A recent survey on certcities.com does not list any product certification in Top 10.
But I am curious to know the benefits of getting certified in Websphere.
Thanks,
Keerthi

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Bob Tai ]