Richard Brokways

Originally posted by mike zhang:
You are right, Mr. Young. I will immediately quit from this topic discussion.

mike,
I'll look forward to discussing other topics with you in the future.
Rich

Originally posted by alex young:
I am a H1B holder. My company hired me legally and I am working here legally. What I want to tell other H1B people here is: We don't need to spend (or waste) time on this topic here. If some people hate to see us working in this country, just let them propose whatever they want. I suggest all H1B people quit from this topic discussion. Let them enjoy themselves. We have more important things to do in our lives.

Although Alex will not participate in this discussion, I wonder what his "skills" are. Do you think we could find an American citizen with "reasonably" equal skills to replace him? Given the economy and the number of US citizens who are unemployed, I think we could find one.
Rich

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,

As for you mentioned some companies "illegally" hired H1B visa by underpaying them. I think it is just case by case. There are always some people abusing the laws. they abuse everywhere, like Enron, MCI, those CFO/CEO are real killers to American employee. How much can 50,000 H1B people make annually ? how much did those bad guys make in the fraud ? My point is, we can NEVER 100% prevent any bad guys from taking advantage of policy, we can set more strict laws to monitor, but by no means should we completely abandoning it just because there are some bad guys and companies.
If you propose to setting up a strict monitoring law for this H1B, I totally agree with you. But your slogan is "sending all of H1B home". I don't think it makes sense.

mike,
I did not state "companies "illegally" hired H1-Bs by underpaying them." What I was saying was twofold. First, most of the H1-Bs were brought here illegally. There was really no "shortage" of skilled workers. As Dr. Matloff correctly concludes, there was not enough cheap labor. Second, once they are illegally here, the companies do not pay them "market" rate for their "skills" in this "shortage" area. Rather, they pay them as a "generic" programmer. This is also in Dr. Matloff's findings.
Next, I'll give you a "real world" overview of the widespread abuse. While I have worked as a consultant, over the past ten years, I have encountered the following breakdown of "uniquely skilled" individuals:
6 - Visual Basic only
4 - Visual Basic and Oracle
4 - ASP, Oracle and Crystal Reports
1 - Crystal Reports only
1- MFC and C++
Now, I know everyone who looks at that list of skills sees the need to bring in H1-Bs. These are not skills we would be able to find on Dice, Monster or the other job boards. Since we cannot find "skilled" individuals, we must find H1-Bs.
In actuality, these jobs are very easy to fill. All you have to do is put an ad up on several of the job boards and watch hundreds of resumes fly in the first day. Again, the truth is they are looking for cheap labor. If the workers do not complain when they are abused, it is even better.
I'm perplexed about your feelings about sending the H1-Bs home. If you are really concerned about what is right, how can you possibly agree with firing American workers and directly replacing them with H1-Bs? The documented case of Bank of America (BofA) in Charlotte, NC is a good example. This is a direct and clear violation of the law. Yet, this happens all too frequently.
In conclusion, the issue here is not a few "bad apple" companies breaking the law; the abuse is blatant and widespread. Rather, it is the government's lack of desire to enforce the laws. This is shown by the number of illegal H1-Bs who are here with easy to find skills. So, the companies should be heavily fined and the illegal workers sent home. Then, as long as it is legal, the companies can do whatever they please.
Rich
[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
In this modern world, no country should and could completely closes its door to foreigners. When a boat hits a rock and water starts leaking into it, the first thing is to see if the hole can be fixed or blocked (may not be a proper terminology), instead of pushing some people into water to drop the weight. I don't know why some people like to focus on the minor part instead of the critical issues. I can tell you : those 50,000 H1B visa include lot of people who is holding the jobs. I have never heard such a thing these days in any country: Company asks foreigners to quit job just because they need to make rooms for citizens. I mean, if this foreigner is just laid off, I agree he/she should go home. But it is unfair to force him/her to quit the job if he/she is working on it well. That's why I say your idea of "sending all H1B home" is unfair and wrong.

mike,
Of course you will never hear of a company firing its cheap labor. For them, it is a great situation.
What I said about "sending all H1Bs home" was stated in several contexts. First, I said if it was up to me, I would send them all home. Second, I said all the H1-Bs who were brought here illegally should be sent home. If you have any respect for the law, you agree with my second point. Just because they are "here" does not mean it is legal.
The issue is not really the issue of sending someone home. If there is a "reasonably skilled" American to fill any of the H1-B positions, the spirit of the law is being broken. The intent of the law is to temporarily fill a position. My problem is "temporary" workers become long term employees and US citizens.
Rich

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
just as you said "A very small group of wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs control the political process". Their decision may significantly help or hurt the Americans' lives.

mike,
In the general sense, it is true the politicians' decisions may help or hurt American citizens. However, when it comes down to what is best for the US citizens versus what is best for the wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs, we all know they will choose to side with the latter. The citizens, as I said have little or no voice. That is the problem.
It is not the way the founding fathers ever envisioned it. I'm sure they envisioned the politicians would be morally upright. I'm certain they would all be very disappointed to see the digression of our political system.
Rich

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
when you feel others are doing name calling on you , don't you feel you are doing some childish things when you do those spelling and typo catching on others ? Here, I don't want to keep going that way to divert the topic.

mike,
The point I was making was simple. It is not acceptable, in my opinion, to resort to personal attacks. You did just that.
As I mentioned in my posts, I felt you were intentionally being rude and arrogant. That is exactly why I mentioned the errors in your post. Whether or not you intended to rude and arrogant, that is how it was perceived.
Rich

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
I think any kind of verbal argument doesn't mean anything. Let the fact talk. By the end of this year, if your proposal of "sending all H1B and/or non-citizen" comes true, I will post a message "I am a loser". If you fail, I just need you to post "this is Rich who whined for months, but my proposal failed".
Let us wait to see who will fail.

mike,
You must really be unaware of how the political system works here. Let me sum it up for you. A very small group of wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs control the political process by giving campaign contributions, bribes or other "compensation." Unfortunately, in the end, the US citizens have little or no voice.
I know you want to believe this H1-B issue is solely my cause. You want to think I decided to lead the fight against this injustice. This is simply not true. Dr. Matloff has been fighting this for years.
If I alone could determine the end result, ALL the H1-Bs would be gone already. Since this issue is being decided by the politicians, it is not my decision. I know the politicians will keep it going because they like the "contributions" from the various organizations. It does not mean you win. You are just an immigrant. You are not controlling the political process. The wealthy individuals, corporations and PACs are.
I never stated I will personally resolve the H1-B problem. Where did you get that crazy idea? Stating the success or failure of this issue reflects directly on me is crazy.
As I said several times before, I just wanted to raise awareness. If one person learned about the H1-B program from this thread, I have accomplished my objective.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
Once again, I truly don't want to offend others using word "loser". But that word first came out from another person (I forgot the name) who replied to your thread. And I felt there is indeed something wrong with your attitude. Why am I not the only one who uses 'loser attitude' on you ??
Don't just blame others, blame congress, president, country. Look at you, look at yourself, from the first message to the end, your abnormally keep whining and whining without any rest. How many people support you ? Ask yourself. What image have you left to others ? I happened to mention your name to few fellows in today's lunch. All of their response is "we always have such people, don't bother with them. let them whine." These fellows are all Americans.

mike,
You have shown no intelligence or wit. You are just a liberal name caller. If you had ANY intelligence, you would realize calling people names does NOT make you seem better. You are acting like a little child. You cannot come up with anything of substance to say here.
Oh, you were really original by parroting what someone else said. Are you showing your intelligence again?
How many people support me? You can search on Google for H1-B. There are many people involved. Are you really that naive to believe this is the ONLY place people discuss this issue on the entire internet?
As for your "American" buddies, they better hope they do not have to look for jobs in the next few months. Regardless of how talented or skilled they are, they will find the prospects pretty bleak. Then, we'll see what they say about the H1-B issue. No one really cares until it hits home.
In the end, it is not "whining." As I said several times before, I just wanted to raise awareness. If one person learned about the H1-B program from this thread, I have accomplished my objective.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
Hahaha... you are wrong, being smart doesn't mean I can't have typo or even grammar error, I am pround to have multiple language skills. I graduated from a USA top 30 CS graduate school and my minor field is applied mathemetics. Even I use English as my second language I could managed to earn decent degress from USA and decent job position, people give me respect. But look at you, you are nothing but a desperate loser. Anyone with common sense will look down upon you when they see you make fun of other foreigners' misspelling or typo. That kind of behaviour makes you look like a clown.

mike,
Again, I find your "loser" statement to be offensive. You do not know me. You do not know how much education I have. You know nothing about me except you have trouble matching wits with me.
If you really got your MSCS "from a USA top 30 CS graduate school," they should be ashamed. It must be an easy program to complete. If your "minor field is applied mathematics," you must be joking. You could not even count.
I went to highly rated universities for both my BS and MSCS. By the way, my GPA was 3.9 at both universities. Obviously, they both produce more polished individuals than the school you attended.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
You think we demand too much ? what do you mean ?

mike,
I clearly stated, "You guys forget, you are NOT US citizens. You are "guests" of a company. You do NOT have the rights of a US citizen. You guys have a lot of balls to be a "guest" and demand things. Maybe, in your country, guests are rude and "demand" things. Here, it is generally accepted "guests" should NOT be rude and "demand" things. I would never even consider going to another country and "demanding" all the rights of citizenship."
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by flying jordan:
Rich, some personal suggestion (no offense): From your messages, I feel you not only hate the H1B policy, but also strongly dislike(I wouldn't use hate here) immigrants and foreigners. I hope you don't go too far in that direction.

flying,
I strongly oppose the companies breaking the H1-B laws. I dislike the fact the US Congressmen are more concerned about money and power than the people.
As for the H1-Bs, I have some H1-B friends from India. One of them, who is now in California, used to go to lunch with me everyday. As far as people go, I have found them very nice. The issue is NOT with the H1-Bs personally, it IS the deceptive companies and the government.
Rich

Originally posted by flying jordan:
Rich, personally I don't understand why you have to laugh at other foreigners' writing. But I don't think it is polite, and it doesn't help anything. Anybody from any country has the right to post messages on this board and English just happens to be the standard language. If people laugh at others like that, it isn't healthy for this public community.

flying,
If you go back and really read his message, I think you will find his tone to be at least somewhat rude. At least, I found it to be that way.
I did not "laugh" at him. I do not know how you arrived at that incorrect conclusion. I said the following:
"For a guy who thinks he is really smart, you have misspellings and two points numbered three. I guess your MSCS degree did not have a mathematics or writing requirement."
This was directly related to what I perceived to be his rude tone.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by John Fontana:

I thought about that, but usually those ads read impossible skills. There is no way in hell that a position looking for someone with 2-3 years of Flash/HTML experience could not be filled within minutes.

John,
No, not really. All of the H1-Bs I have worked with had the following "impossible" skills:
6 - Visual Basic only
4 - Visual Basic and Oracle
4 - ASP, Oracle and Crystal Reports
1 - Crystal Reports
1- MFC and Visual C++
It is not really the skills sought in the postings. It is solely the intent of the posting. Are they really looking for "skilled" candidates? Since some "reasonably skilled" candidates are ignored, obviously this is not the case. Either they are "building" a database of resumes or setting up for H1-Bs.
Rich

Originally posted by John Fontana:
Look at this:
http://agency.hotjobs.com/cgi-bin/job-search?AGC_PINDEX=CJCTQA9S7&TEMPLATE=/hjpublic/htdocs/agency-job-search.html&RPPG=100
Either the economy has come soaring back without the media knowing about it, or Robert Half Technologies are criminals. They have posted 1000 jobs available (just today) in every possible IT job category, in every major city in the country.
They have been running these ads repetitively every day. I guess nobody can fill them. I got suspicious after applying to five or six of them that I was a perfect match for, and never heard a word from them.
Isn't this against the law?

John,
If cornered, they would probably say they are "preparing" for "projected" needs. In reality, they are probably doing this to "justify" bringing in H1-Bs. They want to be able to say they could not find "skilled" US citizens.
Rich
[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

Originally posted by mike zhang:
5. I understand there is always a group of such citizens who blame on other non-citizens, fortunately most Americans are not like that. From my observation, usually this small group of people are narrow-minded, be jealous of other immigrant's success, they don't know they should work hard to contribute. I know some of such citizens. they don't study hard, they don't work hard, they just want to claim benefit using their citizen tag. When they find they can't find a job, they blaim others.

mike,
I'll quote my previous post. "In the end, the vast majority of the Americans would like to see the individuals who are not citizens simply go home. I'm sure if you mentioned the H1-B issue to any red blooded American, they would want to send them home. Of course, there are some liberals, like you, who believe we should just let these people become citizens. Myself, I'm too logical. If the country cannot support the current population, how can it support more?"
You make the incorrect assumption ALL Americans know the real facts on the H1-B issue. Most Americans do not know about this "dirty secret" of the H1-B program. If ALL Americans knew about it, I'd be willing to say the majority (51% or more) would rather send the H1-Bs home and employ Americans. I�m sure the percentage would be even greater if you told them there are tens of thousands of unemployed Americans able to fill those jobs. They would much rather take care of their "own." This is not unique to the citizens of the USA. I'm certain one would find this in many countries.
Rich
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]