jerry Finin

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since Aug 31, 2002
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Recent posts by jerry Finin


LOL! Silly liberals. It was the clinton administration which inflicted the current state of the H-1B program on the US IT worker. The conditions which have resulted in the current economy were in existance quite awhile before GW took office, but I know the liberals like to pretend that isn't the case. It is fact, however. As far as incompetence, yes, the clinton administration was a model of incompetence, and worse.
What do you miss? The lies and deception? The corruption? The lack of morals? The constant scandals? The gutting of the US military? The embarassing sexual trysts? His despicable wife? The impeachment proceedings, special prosecutors, and independant counsels? Yeah, there's a lot to miss about Ol' Billy Boy.


Well, talking about incompetence, I don't see much difference between bill and george. Actually I don't see Bush (the older and younger ones) has done ANYTHING better than Clinton in economy. If we just accept Bush family's excuses that the economy problem is just the fault of their former presidents, we are too silly.
19 years ago
Posted By Rufus -

Are you representing the industry on the age discrimination issue as well?



No, I don't.


Maybe along with your skills rating, you could quantify "OK".


Thanks.
19 years ago
Axel posted

You can tell me how to compute these magic skill levels?
Or do you guys have some open forum, where you discuss about how to compute? Or you just know?
I will give my best in my next seeking-a-new-job-round with still having a job. With all due respect, I have the firm conviction that all this skill level thing is an 90% abitrary process.


Axel,
you brought up a good question. How to determine a candidates's skill level ? It is not easy. I have seen many "excellent" candidates who can talk for hours and they seem to have great experience and knowledge, but once they are hired, their performance is way below what's expected. I have seen poeple who can't present that well but can do excellent tech job, remember they all applied for tech jobs. I believe many folks have the same feeling. As far as I know, many companies give out some standard tests to judge people, or they can gather a group of tech people and test the prospective employee by asking questions. Of course, these methods are not perfect, but at least they can provide some quantitative results and we can get a feeling of level 5 or level 9. No test (SAT, GRE, GMAT)
is perfect. So there is ALWAYS certain degree of "arbitrary" as you said. But from our experience we can rely on those results pretty well. At least it is much better than simply reading "the number of years of experience" in the resume.
I believe there are other ways to measure candidates' skill levels. If a company just relies on their subjective feeling to determine the candidate's skill level, then it is their problem and they need to improve. But I do think these days many companies (especifially consulting firms) are using some testing to test a candidate's level.
19 years ago


Paul posted --So you would be willing to violate the law if it helps your bottom line? Thank you for that lesson in morality.
And I also doubt very much that your little scenario reflects reality. Do you really think that in a nation of 300 million people that you have to go outside of the country to find a qualified person?


I feel sorry you don't get my points. I clearly mentioned in my messages that if a company intentionally hires a cheap H1B labor then it violates the law. But, on the other hand, the statement of "Company is not a welfare organization" is absolutely correct, that's WHY we need to interview people for job positions, it is not just beased who need the job, it is based on who can do the job. It doesn't mean that I will violate the law by keeping the bottom line.
You keep using 300 million figure to paint a picture that there is alwasys a good US candidate. Again and again I am telling you a company only has about two weeks to find the new employee and the ONLY way to select this person is from all the applicants who apply for the job. Someyimes maybe only 10 people apply. I have seen a case that only 3 people want to apply for a position in my company.
I said if I could find a citizen with skill level 8, I wouldn't hire a H1B with a skill of 9 or 10.
And you still think I am not protecting US citizens ? I said if the citizen only has a skill level 5 and a non citizen has a skill level of 9, then I would hire the non-citizen in a LEGAL way. But if the H1B only has a skill level of 6 or 7, then I would still hire that citizen with skill level 5. I think I am protecting the citizens.
19 years ago
Posted by Paul --

The only legal way to hire an H1B is if no American is available who can do the job. This does not mean that you can hire an H1B if he is a better candidate. H1B's can not compete with Americans for jobs. If an American is available and he can do the job, it does not matter if the H1B can do the job better. It is illegal to hire the H1B in that case.


Paul, the issue is -- what is the criteria company used to determine if that H1B person is the best candidate ? Is it because he is really good or he is OK(or good, or even not good) but can be paid at a much lower wage ? If the drving motivation is from the low salary, then this company is abusing the H1B law.
But from your sentences, your hiring "algorithm" is: Among candidates, we categorize them into two sets: One is for citizens, the other is for H1B, if the best one among citizens is at skill level 5 (1 is lowest, 10 is highest), and we find a H1B whose level is 9. So, we should pick that citizen with level 5 without any hesitation. Right ? yeah, level 5 care barely handle the job.
If that's the guiding rule, I guess the company is going to lose more money and we all will have to expect a slower economy recovery...
Another point is : we have limited recruiting time for a job position so the number of candidates are limited. For the scenario i just described, I think we should hire that H1B because--
1. Assuming level 5 is the minimum level to do the job, but just barely, I can't expect productivity from him.
2. level 9 is excellent, BUT we need to make sure the company is NOT importing a CHEAP labor, i.e. the company should use same standard on salary.
If the citizen has a skill level of 8, then I agree we should hire the citizen even the H1B has a level of 9, BUT, I won't do that three years ago, it is just for this moment.
The bottom line is: company is not a welfare organization. It can make some compromise like I just mentioned, but not to the extent you want.
19 years ago
Originally posted by Rich --

the spirit of the law is being broken. The intent of the law is to temporarily fill a position. My problem is "temporary" workers become long term employees and US citizens.


Rich, I understand what you thought. However the law issue is quite complicated. Multiple laws exist. I happen to know something about this so I just want to add some points for your reference. The law (I will say Law A) for H1B is indeed for temporary labor usage. But there is another so-called employment based permanent residence (something like that) law (I will say Law B) which allows employer to file premanent residence status for its employees. INS categorizes three levels of employees: level one -- professors, outstanding scientists; level 2 -- skilled professionals; level 3 -- normal workers. So, many "guests" came to this country using whatever type of visa, and eventually if their employer wants(many don't) to file the green card for them, they can use one of the aforementioned three levels. usually if he works in academic department he can use level 1; if he is IT professional he can use level 2; if he is normal worker he uses level 3.
So there is no way to prevent a H1B visa worker from changing to permanent resident unless there is a law saying H1B or other visa(s) holders can never apply for permanent resident.
But that's going to be a BIG issue because the Law B is still existing, and Law B is set for foreigners with the above three levels of skills and all of them are holding either H1B or those visas that you just banned them from changing to permanent resident. This will make Law B actually void because nobody will be able to apply it.
Now the question is: Can we let Law B become void at this time ? I don't thnik so because that means USA absolutely doesn't welcome any foreigners of any skill levels to become permanent residents. Well, some citizens may think so what, I don't care, not a big deal. but I don't think congress can make that tough decision. As somebody mentioned, this really touches the fundamentals, it is much more fundamental than H1 quota numbers.
Thus, personally I will say: seeking for some reasonable and feasible way to help citizens is good, but it may not be feasible to force touching/changing those fundamental policies. So,
I believe decreasing the H1B visa quota again, and setting tough law to punish those companies that purposely importing cheap H1B labors are two feasible choices. but if you want to go too far and be too "ambitious" on this issue, it may not work.
Jerry.
19 years ago
Original post by Rufus ---

Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?


Are you sure you know what you talking about, Rufus ?
Jerry
19 years ago
******************
Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?
*************
Are you Ok, Rufus ?
19 years ago