Pakka Desi

Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
[QB]
Only one thing. Ten times as many dollars per worker as an Indian/Pakistani/Chinese/African middle class member. That is, in fact why the American middle class is under siege. Not because we're inferior, but because we keep more money circulating. And a lot of that money ends up in China and India - or will until we don't have it anymore.

But it's not the same everywhere. I hate to break the news, but the offshoring craze isn't because of any inherent superior value of the Indian worker. It's because the Indian worker isn't considered to be worth the same absolute number of dollars per hour worked, irrespective of his or her talent. The people who hand out the cash think Indians living in India are worth roughly one tenth as much as Americans.
Don't get mad at me for it. I'm not the one setting the salaries. If you find that insulting, you'll have to convince the Powers that Be to change things.
I wish that were true. However you can only spend as much as you recieve (unless you're the US government). And if you're only receiving a tithe as much, your purchasing power isn't going to be able to bear the load that - up to now - the American public has. It's not sanctity, just cold economics.
[QB]

Companies do not decide how much a person is worth. They only decide how much "low" they can pay to get certain services. So trying to find out how much an Indian or an American is worth is useless.
The salaries are determined by the environment not by the worth of the employee. If every programmer on earth starts demanding exact same level of salaries then the companies will have to give that much salary (or not develop the product). But it does not happen. People live in different environment and so some people can quote less for there services so the companies go to them. It is as simple as that. Companies don't want to hire Americans (I am using Americans just for the name sake. It could be any body.) because they are overpriced. They have too much overheads. Not because Indians are cheap. An american goes to work in his own SUV, sipping Latte, talking over the cell phone. An Indian goes to work by a city bus.
When I asked, "What does an american middle class person has that somebody else doesn't", I meant why should the amrican middle class person have "Ten times as many dollars" as any other person. The reason is simple, an american just can't survive at anything less. He has to make loan payments, groceries, etc. all at the same overprices levels.
Similary the cost of a product is not based on how good it is or how much it is worth. Cost of a product is determined by the market. By how much "high" people are willing to buy it for. If american can't pay $100 for an item and if the company is forced to sell it at $10, then $10 is the price. So when you say that american have more purchasing power, it does not make any sense. They have more purchasing power because they are getting more and paying more for an X item. While an indian is getting less and paying less for the same item. Both have the same purchasing power.
The point that I am trying to make here is, it does not matter (on a global level) whether american (or indian) middle class survies or not. If american middle class is not able to contribute to the global economy as much as it is contributing today, it will not break loose any hell. Somebody else will do their part.

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

The government laid roads out of tax payers money rather than the auto companies.

Isn't that what I said :roll:

BHK is Bedroom Hall Kitchen. It is same as BR in the US. In the US, 1BR means H and K are included so it is same as 1BHK.

Originally posted by Tim Holloway:

I can't speak for various other greedy people out here, but my own personal concern is that it's a repeatedly-demonstrated fact that when the US economy crashes, it takes the whole rest of the world down with it, so everyone has a vested interest in health of the US economy until the day arrives when this situation no longer exists.
In any event, we are repeatedly reminded that the American middle class drives the American economy.

It is like saying, "Rich provide most of the jobs in the world, so let them be rich". Well, they can stay rich if they are competetive overall otherwise somebody will take them over.
Why should amrican middle class be helped in letting it drive the American (and thus, world) economy? What does an american middle class person have that other people don't have?
I disagree with the assertion that to prevent world economy to from sinking, american middle class has to be protected. Middle class is same everywhere. If an indian middle class person has more money to spend, he will spend it just like an american middle class person would. May be on different things. Ultimately it boils down to who is generating more value. The one who generates more value has more power. Total power (on the world scale) remains the same.
I simple example of this is because of the s/w boom in India, companies like MS are selling their s/w to Indian companies as well as to Indian govt. Intel is selling processors in India. Why? Because the Indian companies have money to spend. Why do they have money to spend? Because they are generating better value than some of the American companies. Earlier, nobody in India used to have imported cars. Now there is a huge market. Why? Because people have money to spend...just like American middle class.
So the point is, American middle class is no holy cow. If it is not able to spend that much then somebody else will. So there is no threat to world economy as you would suggest. Of course, there will be tremors while this balance of power shifts but that's all to it.

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I'm no expert on Indian culture or foreign trade law. But it appears to me that India is heavily subsidizing the formation of intellectual capital and selling it for less than it costs to produce it. This situation meets the definition of dumping.
Indian software should be hit a tarrif.

Such indirect subsidy happens everywhere. As I understand, one of the main reason personal automobiles are so common in the US (as compared to the rail road network) is because the US govt. spent huge amount of money in developing the roads in the 50s on tax payers money. While the rail road companies had to install the railways on thier own. The ultimate beneficiary were the auto companies. Isn't that a subsidy?
US automakers Ford and GM are selling cars in India. They should be hit with tariffs as well then.
Most of the advanced technologies are developed in research labs which are funded by the govt. Isn't that a subsidy?
The fact is that nobody had a problem with what american/western companies have been doing in other parts of the world for decades. US was/is the biggest pusher of WTO. Why? Because they wanted to exploit the third world market. Now that they are at the receiving end, everybody is making a noise.
Developing nanations cannot compete with developend nations on technology alone. They can only compete on chaep labor (for now). And you want to take that advantage away? Why? Just because it doesn't suit you? Well, then developed nations should stop their companies from selling their products in the developing nations because it doesn't suit us. Live in an isolated world.
Some states are banning ouffshoring. That's the biggest hippocracy in the world. But than I've always maintained that might is right

Originally posted by Tim Holloway:

Ever notice how few FOSS apps have Indian authors? Even at today's low prices, a home computer costs a significant slice of what you'd get paid working in Bangalore - a $600 Dell Special weighs in at well over 26,000 Rupees. Which is around 1/10th of a typical Indian Java programmer with 2 years experience brings home before taxes.

I am sorry I don't quite understand what point are you making regarding how few FOSS developers are Indian. Can you please put it in simple english?
BTW, you got the figures about Dell example all wrong.
The cost of a comparable PC in India is almost double than the cost in US. I checked only a couple of weeks ago and the Compaq laptop that I can get in the US for <1000USD is more than 100,000INR ( == >2000USD) in India.
The salary for 2 yr experienced Java prgrammer is India varies from 15,000INR to 25,000INR depending on the company and the school she/he is from.
The cheapest P4 desktop (local assembled) that you can get is abt 40,000INR and it won't get you more than 128MB RAM, 40GB HDD. Forget about good graphics cards.
The cost of dial up internet connection is 50Rs per hour (including phone charge). Cable or DSL internet is virtually non-existing. Except for the 5-6 metros where it is available it is too costly (more than 3500INR per month).
Kindly do your math based on these figures.

Originally posted by J. Yan:

Do whatever you want and say whatever you want as long as don't compare Indians with Chinese...
Cheers!

Your are right. There is no comparison between India and China. India is a democracy where people can speak their minds while China is nicely disguised dictatorship where people are free only as long as they do not speak whatever they want, do not assemble whenever they want, do not browse internet, do not publish whatever they want, do not read whatever they want...the list can go on.
No matter how much brag about your economy, military power, or whatever, your country is a dictatorship. Probably you'll not understand the importance/taste of democracy since all your life you've seen only dictatorship. There is a saying, "Bandar kya jane adrak ka swad.", which means, "How can a monkey know what does Ginger root tastes like?".
Or may be you do know the importance of demcracy since I guess you are in the US. May be that's why you are saying there is no comparison between India and China
I would choose death n times over in India than live once in China.
No hard feelings...

I agree with Jim. This thread was interesting but now it has been diluted too much by mudslinging.
There is a saying in Hindi, "Bad achha, badnam bura", which means, "One who is evil is good, but one who is reputed is bad (implicit: even if he is really not evil".
That's the kind of thing happening to me. Whatever I say, MrNiceGuy, Sameer Jamal and company believe that I hate muslims/Islam etc. While all I am really doing is questioning their theories. Putting their belief to the same set of tests that I put my beliefs to. When I ask for an explanation, instead of debating on the points, they start bring 100 other irrelevent points from Hinduism.
As Ravish said, there are 100 bad things about Hinduism. But counting others faults does not reduce your own. (Courtesy Deewar (Shashi Kapoor to Amitabh Bachhan): "Doosron ke paap ginane se apne paap kam nahin ho jaate, bhai".)
I believe that first step to solve a problem is to admit that it exists. In India, people agree that caste system is bad. It is social evil that must be removed and India has adopted measures (affirmative action) to the extent as no other country in the world has dared to adopt.
Devdasi system was bad. But where does it exist now? All over India?? No. It exists only in couple of places where poverty rules. There are tons of other things on which India is progressing.
Anyway, I would ask Mr.NiceGuy and company to come up with straight forward points. What they are trying to prove by quoting 100 websites? If they are posting something in the "discussion forum", they should understand that people will ask questions, people will agree and people will disagree...it is a discussion forum after all!!! If they don't have the guts to defend their platform or if they can't take critisism, then what's the point of posting it here???
I think it would be better to start a new thread and to keep it clean of unnecessary mudslinging.
In any case, let me add some fuel to the fire:
1. If pridicting planatory orbits makes Koran the word of god, then Aryabhatta (476AD) did that before Muhammad.
2. If embryology makes Koran the word of god, then Mahabharata said that 1000s of years before Koran.
3. The concept of "pralay" in Hinduism is well documented and is same as "Ice Age and stuff" that modern science predicts now.
So if you guys are hell bent on scientifying Koran, then there are tons of other books in other religious books that are already in the queue. Koran is the latest of them. Wait in line for your turn

Recording of Hindu texts such as Gita orally is probably understandable because it has been dated about 5000BC when there was no printing.
Now, if as Thomas says, Bible (and other related text) were 'written' then why Koran, which is dated about 700 years after Bible, was recorded 'biheart' as Mr. Nice guy says?? Does it make sense? I would imagine, Koran would use even better ways to record the teachings of prophet Mohd. than Bible.

Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

I know pakka desi very much by previous posts.as i read this pakka desi i believes he is a highly communaly toxicated narrow minded person.so i dont know the real intention of pakka desi.

If I tell you my real intention, you won't believe me. I just vent my anger by arguing. I like blasting stupid posts (from my POV) like this one and I also like getting blasted for my stupid arguments. That's fun for me. If you have the guts then answer my questions. But before you do, make sure you read
the document about fallacies.

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
Pakka Desi,
I would like to have similar information about Geeta, Bible, and other books too if someone can provide. How, what material, etc. If you could use a different thread for that, it would be nice.

www.google.com is what I would use. I don't have any links for Gita handy because I don't feel an urge to prove something to somebody. Gita has philosophy. There is no right or wrong there.
As I undersatand, Hindu literature was also transfered from generation to generation orally. So there is no proof of what was the original stuff, how much has changed, how much of it is just noise. So I don't think anybody can tell you about the material, size, style etc.

Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

how many hindu's know gita very well?.

Many. Probably there are more Hindus who have never read Gita than there are who have. But then we are not discussing with them. When you are discussing theology with people, then be prepared to answer questions. If you haven't read your religion well, then don't jump into the debate. If you are saying something about your religion, then be prepared to defend it. Or accept that it cannot be defended because it is devoid of any logic. There is nothing wrong in that.

Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

Every religeon in this world got a large content.so it's not possible to know all of that for their followers.islam is not an exception.only interested people will study deeply.rest of them just follow by belief.every religeon is like that.islam also.but islam is having some pattern for life.

There is no but. Islam is no exceptional religion. What do you mean by "pattern for life"?? What do you mean by "biheart"?

Mumbai Cha Bhau,
You'll not get any answers from these posters because:
1. They haven't read Document about fallacies. And if they have read it, they are not interested in having an intelligent debate because they don't have any valid argument.
2. They are name sake muslims who don't really know their religion well. All they know is what an Imam/Mullah tells them. And that's why they can only point you to vague internet pages instead of taking up the challenge and answering the questions.
3. Nobody has an answer to these questions because Islam is a religion. Like any other religion, it is a faith based system which does not follow any particular logic. It follows faith.
In general, I think, if any religion could give logical and verifiable explanation to anything, it would not be a religion. It would be science. Some people fail to realize this and try to equate religion with science. While religion has its own place in the society, trouble begins when people don't clearly demarcate religion and logic.
[ June 18, 2003: Message edited by: Pakka Desi ]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Actually, I think Mexico's problem has more to do with decades of government corruption and the unwillingness to give up power more than anything. I believe if they can clean up their government, then those that choose el norte now will become the entrepreneurs that can make that economy flourish.

That's the whole problem. Who will clean up the govt? It's the people who have to do it.

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:

I interpreted the above as "the ordinary people in Mexico (like those of Bihar) do not deserve any better because they do not put in a lot of extra efforts and do not work really hard".

I am sure they work hard. In fact, ordinary people from everywhere work hard. But most of those eforts are consumed just sustain in the current state. To get out of the current state, one needs to do a lot more than that. I don't really know what more should a person who is already toiling for 14 hrs a day do.
It's like a small time hamburger seller becoming multimillionair (Dave of Wendy's). What did he do? Didn't other hamburger vendors worked hard? I am sure they did, but this guy did something extra. That's what propelleled him from one state (poor) to another (rich).