michael bradly

{SARCASM}
It's a rarity when I encounter someone who has a greater understanding of me then I have of myself. When looking for answers I had been turning to the Magic 8-Ball, however I've now come to realize the answers it returned were superfluous. It's good to know I can find much more succinct answers to my exigencies here in MD.
I'm appreciative of those who have assisted me in seeing the errors of my ways and make a promise to myself not to be so sceptical in the future and simple swallow what is spoon feed to me even though I may ponder why they are using a butcher knife to do it. Normally I would think that they were doing something amiss, but no longer. A weight has been lifted off.
{/SARCASM}

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b]
Oh please. It's a typo. In the very next sentence the writer refers to "the September 1970 rally in Valley Forge". Your statement was far more inaccurate than the writer's.
In any event, your statement does nothing to distance Senator Kerry from the VVAW, which as I said is more disturbing than any casual relationship with Jane Fonda.
Joe

Yes, I considered the possibility that it might be a typo, but doesn't that validate my concerns about the accuracy of the information given? If the writer is going to infer events based upon an image and then be careless in proofreading and editing the piece, making inconsistent statements within the same paragraph as to the dates of which an event occurred, I don't find it unreasonable to question the accuracy of the events as written by him, particularly since he is using such vague language. It allows for much easier retractions when a writer can say, "I didn't say it did happen. I said it allegedly happened... I said there was a possibility it happened this way, but I never said it did. When I said closely, I meant in proximity, not relationship."
Additionally, I didn't make a comment about the possibility of the typo in my last post, for who am I to validate the accuracy of that. It could be a typo or it could be intentional- it's not up to me to speak for him. I could just as easily make the same statement that I made a typo as well and if we are going to selectively choose who we offer that blanket of protection to, then I should be granted the liberty to edit my post and make amendments or dismiss any post that I don't agree with by saying I made typos, hence your argument doesn't count.
And while it is true that I was inaccurate about the photo being discussed, I am hard pressed to find where I am more inaccurate than the writer. I simply questioned the accuracy of what he says. Considering that he, his proofreader or his editor were so careless as to overlook the dates and considering this is an occupation for him while posting here for me is a past time, he should be held up to a much higher standard than myself. Again, I did make mention more than once that I was incorrect on the picture yet I haven't seen any changes to the article refered to correcting their error.
As far as the VVAW, I'd rather not get off topic within my response since that breaks the continuity of what we've been discussing.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Following this logic, since the picture in question is not a fake, then the article must be reliable.
Joe

Accepted, it is not the same picture I brought up. However in looking upon that picture the date it was taken was 1970- yet the date mentioned in refering to it was 1971. "...widespread publication of a picture of him sitting behind Fonda at an anti-war rally on Labor Day, 1971, in Valley Forge Pennsylvania". So while I was incorrect on the details of the photo, my questioning the accuracy of the journalist seems to hold up since he is referering to a different picture taken in 1971, not the picture from 1970.

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I don't know about the photograph one way or the other. All I know is that he appeared at anti-war rallies with Jane Fonda.
John Kerry: A Peacenik for President?

First, the photograph mentioned in that article is a fake. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/20/MNG4S54RGO1.DTL
Second, inspecting the quote...

Much has been made of a possible connection between Kerry and Jane Fonda after recent widespread publication of a picture of him sitting behind Fonda at an anti-war rally on Labor Day, 1971, in Valley Forge Pennsylvania.� Kerry, then a head of the radical anti-war group, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, allegedly worked closely with Fonda on two war protests:� the September 1970 rally in Valley Forge where Fonda and Kerry spoke from the back of the same pickup truck, and a January 1971 protest in Detroit which they called the ''Winter Soldier Investigation.

... there is quite a bit of vagueness in the language used. Terms such as "a possible connection" and "alledgedly worked closely" have given this journalist quite a bit of leeway in his interpetation of the events. Taking into consideration that the photgraph is a forgery and he's making assesments based upon it, how much of what he said can truly be relied upon?

try oswd.org...

To anyone still interested in this thread, here is an interesting case going to the supreme court...
http://papersplease.org/hiibel/

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Bush could do two things, at least, that could give him an upper edge over Kerry for the time being. Restore the Steel embargos to gain back the support of the blue collar workers and come out with some import duties on software imports (highly unlikely, I think) to appease the white collar workers.

Restore the Steel tariffs? They were illegal, the U.S. had to back down.
The US expounds this idea of free trade through the WTO and NAFTA, however how free is it truly when countries under the mandate of the IMF are forced to sell off and privatize their infrastructure and vital resources? Bolivia's water war with Bechtel comes to mind as well as Argentina being foced to peg their peso to the US dollar while neighboring countries were able to undercut Argentina's prices making it exceptionally difficult for Argentina to export goods and hence generate economic recovery. Free trade has been less then fair.
Had the US maintained the tariff, many of the other members of the WTO would have struck back with tariffs of their own, and with the US still fighting a recession, that would have exasperated a tenuous situation. It would be hard to stimulate consumerism with ever increasing prices.
Whether it be indentured servitude, slavery, migrant workers, or out sourcing, much of the wealth of this country has been generated through cheap to free labor. Occasionally a bubble occurs, however how different is the tech industry of today from the rail road industry, steel industry, auto mobile industry and airline industry of yore?
The anomaly of reading "Learn Java in 24 Hours" and getting a 100k/year job are gone. Unfortunately the misperception of maintaining entitlement to that has not.
To those who take issue with outsourcing and wish to maintain jobs in the US, my only suggestion is don't buy from those companies. It seems silly to complain about companies outsourcing to China then support that comapany with hard earned dollars.

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Similar arguments against compulsory national ID cards are used by people that oppose gun registration, namely that the state is being given too much information about its citizens that could in theory be abused.
The main counter argument that "if you're a law abiding citizen then you have nothing to fear" doesn't seem to be able to sway that particular point of view.
I wonder what the correlation is (if any) between supporters of gun registration and supporters of national ID card systems?

Being a law abiding citizen I have everything to fear. Being innocent and proving innocence are fundamentally different. The inability to prove my innocence can result in my being executed on death row. Although I don't contemplate this distinction on a daily basis, the thought does occur to me when I'm pulled over by the police because I fit a description, or I am questioned by my girlfriend when I say I am at one place, however a friend of hers remarks that they witnessed me elsewhere.
The assumption that we don't have anything to fear because we are innocent results in my opinion to complacency. Information is abused and misused. This is no longer simply theory, it's applied on a daily basis.
Words like "the state" or "the government" blanket what lies underneath, people with agendas who will use information for policies. To encompass these people with general notions like the state, the nation, or the government allows too much to be simply dismissed with statements such as "in theory the state might abuse the information," and displaces culpability for how these people misuse this information.
There was a period of time when innocent people were destroyed because someone dropped a name. If the information is out there, someone will use it and then it's an individuals interpetation as to whether that information was abused or misused based upon their own personal agenda and/or belief.

Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.
-Woodrow Wilson

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
There is no govt history for this sort of stuff in the uk - it smacks of totalitarianism. Perhaps because the uk has never been occupied, unlike Europe.

Didn't Rome occupy the UK once upon a time?

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

This is exactly the tactic employed by the Nazis. They required all Jews to ID themselves and then used this very means to conduct the holocaust.

Well, technically the means to conduct the Holocaust were first tested among the handicapped and mentally ill to gauge public reaction. This is a tactic governments seem to repeat often- dehumanize and marginalize a block of the populace and then test their social experiments upon said group. Lack of engagement or outcry generally is taken as acceptance of policy and the envelope can be pushed a bit further each time.
Speaking of national ID cards. I'm already required to carry identification. I can be imprisoned by the inability to properly identify myself. Jaywalking aside I am law abiding for the most part, so I dislike the idea that information that is already accessible- mandatory in fact, is going to be made mandatory on a National level.
Why should I as a private citizen be responsible to fill in the gaps due to government inefficiency and inability to consolidate information? Time and time again the bureaucracy has shown itself either unable or unwilling to discern relevant information when it is presented yet continually demands more information from its citizenry.
To me, this reeks of social engineering and I'm concerned of what will be required next. Those who are representatives of myself in government have shown themselves to coddle more towards special interest, corporations and what benefits them, then what supports the interest of their constituency. They continually make decisions that effect my daily life while at the same time making decisions to maintain their political careers.
When a politician does make a stand on something I feel useful, i.e. a paper trail for electronic voting there's going to be someone else standing in the way.

Without that paper trail, a manual recount isn't possible, Wexler argued
But Circuit Judge Karen Miller ruled Wexler did not have the standing to file the suit, since he could not prove he had been hurt, either as a citizen or as a public official, by the voting system. Wexler's complaints would be better addressed through legislative remedies, her order said.
Wexler said the judge's order seemed to erase Florida voters' ability to challenge the system.
"I see this as the judge dismissing Florida's voters and ... their voting rights," he said.
Hood said she was "very pleased" with the court's decision.
"We never had any doubt that, with the high level of confidence in the equipment across the state, we would continue to see accurate and secure elections," she said.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/news/local/7933189.htm

Heh, accurate and secure elections in Florida? The state that prevented people who committed a crime in the year 2008 from voting in the 2000 election.

Miller stressed the courts have no place in determining the remedy Wexler is seeking, since it would require them to determine a system for recounts, how to fund and oversee that system and how to resolve potential problems.

I have a hard time reconsiling this comment by Miller since, if I recall correctly, the Supreme Court got involved in the 2000 election.

On December 8, 2000, the Supreme Court of Florida ordered that the Circuit Court of Leon County tabulate by hand 9,000 ballots in Miami-Dade County. It also ordered the inclusion in the certified vote totals of 215 votes identified in Palm Beach County and 168 votes identified in Miami-Dade County for Vice President Albert Gore, Jr., and Senator Joseph Lieberman

Well, before I get too off topic... I find it objectionable that I'm constantly being dictated by an ever intrusive government that apparently has more time to fiddle around with my rights then respecting my rights. I'm getting tired that I'm being held to a level of accountability that government and coporations do not abide by. I'm finding it increasingly diffult to find irony in spending life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza, whereas misappropriating billions and running a company into bankruptcy gets a night at the White House discussing national energy policy.
Speaking of off topic... Does whyfingerprint.com pass the Goodwin test , or since it is a web page does it not count? "It is therefore best to stop this piecemeal Nazism with the chains of the constitution."

My rant ends...
Michael

As someone who partook in that thread I have obviously ruffled some feathers, hence the call to a moderator regarding one of my post and many references about my post thereafter.
Granted I made some bold statements, however I also made an effort to give references as well. I received a few references in return and made the effort to read through those sources before posting a rebuttal.
Obviously there were many fallacies of argument being thrown around and I attempted to recall them as best I could so as not to have my argument picked apart and deemed meritless since I did spend time constructing them.
Alas, it was an interesting discussion for the most part and the thread has been graciously put out of its misery.
Michael

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
Bush was not AWOL that has been discredited.
...
I could also post some links on the earth is flat. But that would not make the earth flat. Some people will believe whatever they want anyway.

Definately interesting reading. It only took him nearly four years to recant. And even in recanting he did it in such circular fashion it's hard to deduce which account he is recanting, his original statements or the statement made earlier in the day.

"I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base."
Still, the same day the retired general had withdrawn the allegation...

HobbsOnline had a similarly interesting statement. "There are three basic allegations the anti-Bushies make, and and even if any are true, they do not prove the others."
if (a == true && b == true && c == true){
System.out.println("Not true");
}

"As to the former, I'll just respond that if GWB used family connections to get into the Guard, he still joined a unit elements of which were involved in combat in Vietnam at the time he enlisted." Hobbsonline

According to this document, http://www.gregpalast.com/ulf/documents/draftdodgeblanked.jpg he did use family connections. So this would indicate the first accusation to be true.
More can be read in the article: http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=234&row=3

"The most logical explanation as that GWB put in his hours on the base, and no one in Alabama knew he was the son of a future president as well as a future president and no one took special note of him." HobbsOnline

Here is a document of Bush asking for the transfer to Alabama: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc7.gif
Here is a document of the acceptance. Of note is the reference of the uncertainty of that unit being around for the next year: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc6.gif
Here is a document of the rejection of that acceptance:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif

"This transfer refusal left Bush still obligated to attend drills with his regular unit, the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron stationed at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston. However, Bush had already left Texas two weeks earlier and was now working on Winton Blount's campaign staff in Alabama."
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

So if he was required to continue to fulfill his duties with the 111th, his report indicated he was not there.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc9.gif
Additionally, nothing was noted as observed in his evaluation report:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif
So I would deduce from this that the second and third accusation of the "anti-Bushies" appears to be true as well.
"Nor do you get to be a good pilot pushing paper." HobbsOnline
The unit he applied to was described as such.

"Lieutenant Colonel Bricken recently explained to the Boston Globe, ''We met just one weeknight a month. We were only a postal unit. We had no airplanes. We had no pilots. We had no nothing.''" http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

"You don't get to be a good pilot by not showing up. Bush showed up.... he was discharged early with, remember, his service time requirement completed.... His honorable discharge is the evidentiary coup de grace." HobbsOnline

An honorable discharge does not indicate a flawless record," says Grant Lattin, a military law attorney in Washington and a retired Marine Corps lieutenant colonel who served as a judge advocate, or JAG officer. "Somebody could have missed a year's worth of Guard drills and still end up with an honorable discharge." http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/020904A.shtml

As to his discharge. I suspect that is up to debate as well. His service record vs. his biography indicate seperate dates.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif
And, if the following is true, that the records are maintained, it should be simple enough to find out if he had been actively flying during the period in question.

"few if any military units are held as accountable for their crews' moment to moment whereabouts as are reconnaissance squadrons. It's what they do. If during my Air Force tenure, I'd lost track of a reconnaissance aircraft or its pilot for a mere few seconds, I'd sure as hell remember it, as would every other person on my watch.... Their movements are traced and recorded precisely, and the records are kept forever.... That a recon squadron would be unable to account for the whereabouts of one of its pilots, between Texas and Alabama no less, and for twelve months is absurd in the lunatic extreme"
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_4981.shtml

Interesting stuff all. Suffice it to say I've found this an interesting thread for the most part. I can't say I've done so much document searching in quite a while. I've formed my opinion, obviously The past tends to be revisionist and the present tends to be spun.

"His records have clearly been cleaned up," says author James Moore, whose upcoming book, "Bush's War for Re-election," will examine the issue of Bush's military service in great detail. Moore says as far back as 1994, when Bush first ran for governor of Texas, his political aides "began contacting commanders and roommates and people who would spin and cover up his Guard record. And when my book comes out, people will be on the record testifying to that fact: witnesses who helped clean up Bush's military file."

As much as I'd love to debate a flat earth, I'd have a hard time making a pro arguement for it
Michael

I suspect the Mad Hatter would be proud of this thread. This thread seems to be going along like this:
A point is made-
The point is countered-
The evidence used to counter the point is manipulated and used as vindication that the original point was correct.
I've made a few points. Granted I don't expect everyone to agree with them, however I did profer anyone who disagrees with my ascertations to kindly offer references as a rebuttal. Instead, much of what I have come across refers to me inderectly through third person and vagueness. The result being that much of what has resulted from my post appears to me to be a bunch of strawman arguments.
Example:
[QUOTE}Equating National Guard service with draft dodging is in extremely poor taste, not to mention incredibly insulting to the millions of Guardsmen who have honoarbly served, fought, and died in order to preserve the way of life and freedoms of those same people who would attack them for their service.... If some folks have such a low opinion of the National Guard so as to equate them with draft dodgers... Jason Menard
I concur. Equating Nation Guard service with draft dodging is in extremely poor taste, which makes it all the more egregious when it is used as a means to avoid the war! At no point did I equate joining the National Guard service with draft dodging. I did make the point the Bush joined the National Guard to dodge the draft, that he got preferential treatment, that he did not pass his fly test, and that he deserted. Again, please feel free to post any evidence you have that this is not the case. I'm open to information.
Here are more references regarding this:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/national/s_177797.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4291-2000Nov2.html
Notice that these articles are almost four years apart and this is still an issue as Bush has yet to clear up the questions regarding his service record with tangible evidence to disprove the statements made by his detractors.
How about Colin Powell... He is a decorated General serving in this administration. What are his feelings?
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell�s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148) "

Paul, a post in this thread said America was complicit in the Holocaust. That is what I took exception to, and was told that it is acceptable. Joe Pluta

Can I be quoted on that? I never used the word complicit, however I did make mention that there is evidence coming out and increasingly more so that the US knew what was going on in Germany. I did give a quote and a reference. I did make mention that there were profiteers in the US such as Prescott Bush, IBM- Volkswagen used slave labor provided by the Nazi regime as well. Somehow for bringing this up I'm offensive, yet the fact that Bush has inhereted wealth off the blood of others is inoffensive?
"President Bush acknowledged that he was apparently wrong in stating on the eve of war with Iraq that there was "no doubt" that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction."
Dana Milbank Washington Post Staff Writer
To this day the Bush dynasty is still profiteering off the lives of others. Yet, I'm offensive.

As ever,
Michael

Draft dodgers are not brave, nor do they exhibit moral character. Someone who avoids service to their country through fraud, deceit or deception is actually severely deficient in moral character. The best example of a truly moral objection to war was that of Muhammad Ali... Joe Pluta

Is Ali really the best example? What about George W. Bush? He managed to jump the the head of the line with the Air National Guard in Texas. He managed to score 1 point above too dumb to fly. He also went AWOL. Who died in his place? For some sources and articles you can refer to www.awolbush.com
How about Cheney. He received 5 deferals.
Did anyone in this administration server? http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks

A question I would pose: if one is not willing to serve the country of their citizenship in time of war, is that person actually living up to that citizenship? Joe Pluta

Apparenty our administration is not living up to their citizenzhip then.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The Declaration of Independence
Did the signers of the Declaration run away? Marilyn de Queiroz

Let's not delude ourselves in believing that this was an altruistic statement. The founding fathers definition of a man- rich white landowners.
Slaves were only 3/5th of a man, non-property owners would not be considered worthy of suffrage and women, of course, were not men at all.

Any analogies of the US and Nazi Germany are too disgusting to contemplate and show a profound ignorance of the aims, motivations, and actual practices of Nazi Germany. Herb Slocomb

Really? Then I guess I must be ignorant. Ignorant to the policy of eugenics that had been practiced in the US and the Nazi regime followed.
"Three Generations of Imbeciles Are Enough" -- Former US Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, ruling in 1927, in the case of Buck v. Bell, which involved forced sterilization of a human being, a practice which was legalized under policies promoted by Prescott Bush and his father, Samuel Bush, along with many other 'bluebloods' in the USA including Rockefellers, Roosevelts" http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/peace/nov03/msg00011.html

You admire people who would sit back and watch as others are burned alive in in ovens by the millions? Someone who would allow tens of thousands of Korean women to be forced into sex slaves for Japanese brutes ? Someone who would allow every conceivable horror imaginable that was perpetrated by Nazi Germany and Japan and do nothing violent to stop it is not to be admired. Quite the contrary.... Herb Slocomb

Well, don't admire the US, since the US had knowledge of what was going on and did little to prevent the systemic slaughter that the Nazi perpetuated.
"Warnings from the allies to the Jews of Europe of a planned genocide never came," IWG public member Thomas H. Baer said. "The Nazi murders depended on secrecy and subterfuge. Warnings would not have stopped the Holocaust, but they could have saved lives."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/02/national/main299399.shtml
Just as the US did little to intervene during the slaughters occuring in Rwanda and Yugoslavia. When Saddam was gassing Kurds and Iranians, did the US speak out? Did Britain? Or were they too busy supplying him the resources and maintaining diplomatic ties and sending envoys like Rumsfield over to maintain ties? Our policy makers did little to slow the AIDS epedemic since it was seen as a disease afflicting gay males. Our policy makers did little to slow the crack epedemic since it was localized to inner city ghettos.
Let us not forget the Tuskegee airmen, nor other soldiers used as guinea pigs for drug studies and other atrocities. Nor let us forget the number of Nazi doctors that were allowed into this country to continue their work, nor the use of their documentation from their "scientific" studies.
I guess I am ignorant of IBM's compliance.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/27/print/main504730.shtml
I guess I too am ignorant that Prescott Bush helped build the German war machine while withholding that same technology from Allied forces.
http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm
I guess I am ignorant to people dissappearing off the streets of America under the guise of Homestead Security. People stripped of their due process and Constitutional rights. A policy much like that which occured to Japanese citizens during World War 2. And not just Japanese citizens in this country- no, even those from as far away as Peru were rounded up and interned. Much like those "Noble Savages" whose idea of Democracy was co-opted by the founding fathers, while they were interened on slivers of land kept warm by pox filled blankes and bottles of booze until their culture, practices and belief eroded.
No, it would be ignorant to make any comparisons between Germany and the US.

That's because it's within the rules to equate America with Nazi Germany, but it's bad manners to tell someone they're an idiot for doing so. Joe Pluta

Joe, you and anyone else on this post can call me names by all means. I won't take offence. However I'd ask of anyone who does feel I'm an idiot or flaming this post to pass along references to be debated. I realize this is the Meaningless Drivel board, however that doesn't mean facts can't be introduced!
Regards,
Michael
[ February 08, 2004: Message edited by: michael bradly ]
[ February 08, 2004: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]

I was always under the impression that Orion is primarily used for J2EE technologies, not PHP implementation.
I haven't delved deeply into Orion just yet, however I would suspect
that they might be refering to a config file in Orion. I would check the config file and search through for any mention of PHP and see if anything is commented out or deals with the placement of PHP files.
I've searched the Orion site and there doesnt seem to be much info. The only thing I've come across mentioning PHP is integrating Orion with Apache.
Michael